Anti-genocide is not pro-Hamas

[TomDaisy]

[emulatorloo]

1. Very good point, since Hamas is explicitly pro-genocide in their charter

What Hamas Leaders Actually Want — In Their Own Words (Part 1)
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-hamas-leaders-actually-want-in-their-own-words-part-1/

[Johnny2X2X]

2. And pro Israel is not pro genocide

Fair enough.

[Tickle]

3. Sometimes it's frustrating to have to state the obvious, especially when it feels like everyone should

already understand.

Saying "we're against genocide" sounds noble, but it's used to criticize Israel's defensive actions. It's important to navigate these word games carefully and ensure that discussions about conflict remain grounded in understanding and empathy for all parties involved.

[brooklynite]

15. It's also frustrating when addressing Palestinian's needs...

…seems to involve only actions from Israel.

[tritsofme]

4. Sure, but plenty of "protesters" are Hamas supporters/sympathizers, whether or not you choose to pretend otherwise.

[Igel]

13. And there's the pervasive "logic."

"If you don't vote for Biden you're supporting Trump."

It's the same logic. And equally fallacious in that it ignores the individual and is exclusively outcome driven.

De facto, you would vote for Biden and don't, you're letting a Trump voter's vote stand unchallenged, untied. Because if you don't defend democracy, you're letting the Orcs overwhelm the forces of good. (Or, if you don't send weapons to Ukraine, you're letting the, um, orcs, overwhelm the forces of greater democracy.)

De facto, you don't want Hamas gone, you don't have to be one of the idjits with a "Al-Qassam's next target ---->" sign or screaming to "get ready for 10, 100, 1000 Al-Aqsa floods." You stand in solidarity with Hamas' strategy for survival and rebuilding, you're aiding and abetting another declaration of war and saying that Hamas shouldn't bear consequences, nor should Hamas allies in Gaza. (It's rather like declaring yourself for peace in 1/44, arguing that we need to seek peace with Berlin, because to finish extirpating the Nazis ... Think of the innocents! The women, the children, the vulnerable. Hitler would have lived to a ripe old age and perhaps the Wehrmacht would have been rebuilt. But that would have been de-facto defense of Hitler, for completely "progressive" reasons." Of course, The CP USA's favorite leader, Stalin, would have finished the job.

How you see where people stand depends upon where you stand. I get it. Killing women and children, even those that support Hamas, is bad. I get it. Allowing Hamas' genocidal, Jew-hating leaders and flesh-based infrastructure to stand only helps Iran and guarantees more dead Jews. That's why it's a hard choice. But many of the "innocent" are tainted and cheered rape and murder, while in Israel we see a lot of Jewish Israelis protesting for חי. I also get why many Israelis have had their hearts hardened--after being pro-2-state, Hamas' "we don't want 2-state, we want '48!" jeers rankle. Even if the Hamas charter has been written Crit-Lit style to mean the same thing but with wolvish words in sheep-appearing clothing.

It's a hard choice. חי versus good/bad. Do you let the murderer-rapist live because while not forgive, what can you do? Or do you chemically castrate or execute the, um, f**ker?

[Deep State Witch]

5. I Don't Think That Anyone is Pro-Genocide

There are no good guys and bad guys in this, contrary to popular opinion. Both sides have a lot to answer for.

[Igel]

14. In that you're almost certainly wrong.

Some would have said that had the word been popularized in '42. And still been wrong.

Putin ... He's pro-genocide.

One has the virtue of justice, in the sense of what's due because of a declaration of war and being attacked. The other has the virtue of justice, in the sense that the vulnerable must be protected, even if they do support those who declared war and attacked. Morality was much more clear in the 1940s. "Good Germans" got little support, and few argued on not attacking Germany because, well, women and children that supported Hitler would have died. (Then again, back then most of the battles occurred out of urban areas, because the Nazis had more honor and fought not in cities but in open fields; yes, Gaza has open fields. But vegetables don't provide the cover that women and children do.)

[Deep State Witch]

17. I meant on DU

There's a lot of people in the world who would happily wipe out every last (insert tribe/minority/religious group here). Just ask the Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda. Or the Serbs, Bosnians, Croatians, etc. in the former Yugoslavia. Or the Janjaweed in Sudan - or whomever the fuck is doing whatever they're doing there. The Rohingya in Myanmar. The Uighurs in China. I could go on. Genocide and ethnic cleansing are relatively new terms for what's been going on for millennia.

[sarisataka]

6. Most definitely not.

Hamas is quite pro genocide in a do unto others sense.

[mopinko]

7. pretty sure everyone here knows that.

[H2O Man]

9. Respectfully disagree.

[mopinko]

12. they pretend not too.

ppl often make assumptions based on things beyond a single post. recent posts, or past posts from certain posters.
everyone who swears they arent antisemites isnt always telling the truth.

and lots of ppl dont realize that they r tapping into old tropes. i got a real education in my days as a mod here.

[Igel]

16. I have a strong suspicion

that the Charlotte Tiki-torch folk that chanted that "the Jews will not replace us" would have said they were fact-based and wanted to defend those with less power. Not "anti-semitic" at all. "I don't hate all Jews, just those that are against people like me!" Doesn't take that much imagination.

But when they go after rank-and-file Jews for what "the Rothschilds" or the current avatar-they-love-to-hate, Soros, are doing, it's clear they've generalized and gulped many gallons of the Kool-aid. And when protesters go after random students that are Jewish--or ZAKA, the pacifist branch of Zionism--they've crossed their private Rubicon.

[Zeitghost]

8. Very True

Making false claims of genocide on the other hand...

[Prairie Gates]

10. Many of your interlocutors online will themselves be fanatics or not arguing in good faith

That happens across political divides and different message boards, unfortunately.

Some just parachute in to disrupt, and cannot be dislodged. Rules for some boards are extremely naive or self-interested in maximizing views/profit. It's sad.

[enid602]

11. Hard

Sometimes the hardest thing you can do is give people access to food.