The New Math of Driving Your Car Till the Wheels Fall Off

[dalton99a]

https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/the-new-math-of-driving-your-car-till-the-wheels-fall-off-9c23b7bc

https://archive.ph/mkjqA

The New Math of Driving Your Car Till the Wheels Fall Off
Drivers rethink the optimum number of years to hold on to a car as the costs of ownership increase
By Joe Pinsker
May 1, 2024 9:00 am ET

Jeremy Morris is used to friends making fun of the Toyota Tacoma he has driven for 24 years. He still insists it was one of the best money decisions of his life.

The 45-year-old financial adviser in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, estimates he saved more than $100,000 by never replacing the pickup. His ballpark figure factors in what he would have spent on a new car every five years, minus the roughly $20,000 he paid for repairs and upkeep over 300,000 miles.

There have always been people who relish driving cars till the wheels fall off, but the case for this frugal personal-finance move has grown stronger as the costs of car ownership have ballooned.

The average transaction price on a new vehicle was $46,660 in March, compared with $39,950 three years earlier, according to Edmunds, an online car-shopping guide. Repair and maintenance costs are up 8.2% year-over-year, and insurance costs are up 22.2%, Labor Department data show.

To cope, many owners are squeezing more life out of their current ride. U.S. vehicles’ average age hit a record 12.5 years in 2023, increasing for the sixth straight year, according to S&P Global Mobility.

...

[2naSalit]

1. Both of mine...

Are at least 20 years old. I have a '92 4Runner that I will never let go, just refurbished it at 200K miles, been driving it all winter. The other is a money pit that I might let go of this year, a BMW that is having expensive repair needs now so it might fall off the inventory. But the other ride, I actually lived in that for ten months a few years back, it has the most comfortable seats and has a manual transmission. My heir will inherit it.

If a decent trade-in program for electric cars shows up real soon, I'll trade in the BMer for that.

[erronis]

21. I loved my '93 4Runner - got 390,000 miles on it before the crankshaft broke

I had rolled it, off-roaded, stuck in ocean beach sand, etc. And it kept on truckin. Next one I got 2001? wasn't near as good.

[2naSalit]

48. Agreed...

That vehicle is the best all around vehicle I think I've ever owned.

Having been a professional driver for 20 years or so, I am picky about my ride, not just the looks but what's under the hood so to speak. I would like the BMW more if it had the clearance and versatility but it falls short on too many points so it will be the one that goes when the purge comes.

[Scrivener7]

2. I've always done this. I buy a two- or three-year used with a great

repair rating in anticipation of keeping the car forever.

My niece is still driving my 2005 Honda, and my current car is 9 years old with no sign of quitting in the next decade.

[Farmer-Rick]

9. Same here

I once had an old toyota that I drove until the passenger side flooring rotted out and you could see the road. But it still ran.

Now a days they make them better and they can last longer than the car loans. But of course new cars now a days are way over priced as compared to an average wage. In 2021, prices for new cars rose 14% while wages only rose 8%. It's even worse today, making new car prices out of reach for many households.

[llmart]

18. I've had my Civic for over ten years.

The only thing I've replaced are the tires and the battery which I fully expected to have to do. I traded a Dodge sedan in to buy a Honda. That Dodge was in for repairs consistently and for big dollar amounts.

[MOMFUDSKI]

3. We have a 2000 Tacoma and a 2010 Camry.

Bought Tacoma new as a biz truck with the write-off and bought the Camry used with low miles. Been cheap-riding forever. Husband takes care of vehicles like they were his kids.

[Redleg]

4. my Toyota is 22

I am planning to replace it this summer. I normally like to keep cars for 10 years but just hung onto this car because it has been reliable and because I am too cheap to buy a new one. I have the funds but just hate spending money.

[Best_man23]

5. I always drive mine till parts become hard to get

Disclaimer up front: I'm a former auto technician, I have the tools at hand and the skill set to keep my cars longer than most.

Availability of repair parts is usually the driving factor in my decision to replace a car. In 2012, I traded in a 1996 Escort that still ran, but had airbag issues that I couldn't get parts to replace outside of a salvage yard. In Virginia, they have annual inspections, and will not pass a car that has the airbag light on.

Couple of secrets for vehicle longevity:

1. Do the maintenance, and don't follow the recommended maintenance intervals on newer vehicles. Cars built over the last 12-14 years have seen increased recommended maintenance intervals (8-10K for oil changes, 50-100K miles for coolant changes). I change my oil at 5K and coolant at 30K. Don't let the driver information center oil change reminder be your cue to change the oil.

2. Go OEM for maintenance and replacement parts to the maximum extent possible. This is especially important for electronic parts like sensors. There is a quality difference between OEM and a lot of the parts you get at AutoZone and Advanced Auto. In the auto repair world, there is this phrase: "Dorman: Stranding motorists and pissing off technicians since 1918."

3. Monitor the NHTSA website (link below) for recalls and issues specific to your vehicle. Often, they will post Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs) that are sent to dealership service departments. If you find any that pertain to what seems to be persistent issues, especially for engines and transmissions, download and save a copy of the TSB. In some cases, you may want to talk to your repair shop about doing a "preemptive repair" on such issues. One of my vehicles was part of a TSB for the fuel pump fuse burning out.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwKOsrPXuhQMVNE1HAR1gFQ48EAAYASAAEgKTavD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Pinback]

10. Come on, man, you don't know how to disable the airbag warning light?

Excellent post - thanks for the inside info. As a person who keeps cars way longer than most, I have found that reliable, trustworthy auto techs are among my most valuable contacts.

Especially as I learn more about what a privacy nightmare most newer cars are, I’m more determined than ever to hang on to the car I've now had for 10 years as long as I can.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

44. What does OEM stand for?

My 2017 Honda Fit tells me when I need to change the oil, and it goes a very long time between changes. I also put very few miles on it, especially since the Pandemic, and because I no longer drive to work every day.

So far that car has not needed anything resembling major work. Just oil change every few years and that's about it. How my tire pressure light likes to come on. Then I go straight to the dealer, they make sure the tires are all copacetic and turn off the light.

[NoSheep]

51. OEM is original equipment manufacturer-when I drove Volvos, I went to an independent Volvo mechanic and he used only OEM

had 2, 240DL wagons and they both had nearly 400K miles when I sold them

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

68. Thank you.

I have all my work done at a dealership. Should be the same thing as far as equipment is concerned.

[AllyCat]

6. My Toyota is 16 and nearly 300k miles

I have spent mostly on maintenance and a few unexpected repairs. Will drive it till it dies.

[Diamond_Dog]

31. My Corolla is 18 years old

I have only had to do regular maintenance on it. It runs great. No major repairs.

When I see the cost of a comparable new car today, I just about faint.

[Eyeball_Kid]

52. My 2007 Prius continues to be a real bargain.

I bought it new. Year in and year out, I get over 50 mpg. I had an efficient 30mph Accord before then.

I had a government job and an itinerant job description. The mileage checks I accumulated for travel more than paid for the cost of the car. I retired ten years ago, and the car still rides okay with no major repairs at 280k on the odometer. Our new second car? A hybrid Niro that averages 53 mpg. Great car.

[broiles]

54. I too drive a 07 Prius bought new.

Best car I have ever owned. I had to replace the big battery once ($3k) but no other repairs. My mileage is not as good as yours but it stays around 45 mpg for mostly in town.

[uponit7771]

62. Which model? Looking for car for the kids ... tia

[AllyCat]

66. Highlander hybrid. Also have an '08 Prius

For our younger set. Less mileage. Just oil changes. It’s awesome.

[Johnny2X2X]

7. Engineer here

Do well, am not wealthy, and my peers at work are generally the same.

People have this idea that people making good money are sitting around bragging about their new cars, the opposite is true with engineers. We brag about how old our cars are. Very few of us ever buy new, that depreciation when you take it off the lot is just too much to stomach. A paid for and well maintained vehicle is the greatest thing for your finances. Haven't had a car payment in several years and it's pretty amazing. Some people say engineers are cheap, I say we're good at math and practical.

And the bragging about how old your car is is real. It's hilarious how many times I've heard it at work. One of the few wealthy people I work with who is near retirement and whose husband is a retired banker drives a 2002 BMW that has almost 300,000 miles on it, she's super proud of it.

My home is my priority because it's an actual investment and not just money down the drain like a new car is. My in laws have different priorities, they rent their home and both drive brand new Lexus's. They make enough money to buy a home, they just don't budget well enough to save and then they drive ridiculous cars whjose payments together are almost $1000 a month. I have a savings account just so I can pay cash for my next car, instead of making car payments I pay this savings account every month.

But I do understand the anxiety of having a crappy car. I've been there. There's the constant anxiety of wondering what will go wrong next and if you'll be able to afford the repair. How will I get to work? How will I get to school? It's a constant hum in the back of your head everyday, that the next repair is going to break you. So a lot of people when they first start making decent money go out and buy a new car to eliminate that anxiety they've been coping with for years. But don't do it, you'll be so much better off buying a used vehicle with low miles than a new vehicle. You'll have a much better chance to have it paid off and still be driving it for several years after if you buy slightly used.

[Freddie]

19. My son bought brand new 4 years ago

A practical car (Santa Fe). DH is a good shade-tree mechanic and until his recent retirement got parts for cost, but our boy lives in Florida. Plus he’s well-paid and very good with $$. And not handy at all.
DH worked in auto parts and is also a believer in drive-it-til-it-drops. And no car payments. I drive a 2011 Dodge Caliber bought used in 2018, a $9000 splurge because I’d just gotten a small inheritance. He drives a 2011 Santa Fe but only has a car that “young” as he bought it from his brother’s estate. ☹️

[justaprogressive]

29. Please clarify...

One of the few wealthy people I work with who is near retirement and whose husband is a retired banker drives a 2002 BMW that has almost 300,000 miles on it, she's super proud of it.

By this do you mean the the BMW is of the 2002 model year...

OR

do you mean she owns a BMW model 2002 from the 70's? Inquiring minds

[Johnny2X2X]

34. Year is 2002

It's like a 325i from 2002. It's got rust on it and one of the windows won't roll down, but she drives it to and from work happily.

[justaprogressive]

35. haha!

thanks!

a friend of mine owned a model 2002...

[Johnny2X2X]

37. It's just uncanny with engineers

We have maybe 600 engineers in the building, you won't find but a few dozen new cars in our parking lot and those are usually the execs. We have a production area out back, and the parking lot for production has more new and nicer cars than the one we all park in. Lots of nice trucks back there.

And it's not just my work. My oldest friend is a medical devices engineer at a different firm and has done very very well for himself, drives like a 12 year old Nissan that is nothing fancy and has 180,000 miles on it. His net worth is probably in excess of $2M and he's not wasting money on a fancy car.

[Old Crank]

8. Makes sense to keep tehm longer

In the 60's some of my neighbours would trade in at around 3 years. Warantee done and repairs abut to hit for AC compressors, starters, alternators and water pumps. Now the engines run a lot longer with essentially no tune up for more than 50k miles.

The cost of ownership for newer cars is now over $800. per month.

I have no cars now, just rent as needed. Much cheaper.

[mainer]

11. I will never give up my old Lexus

It's 17 years old and the most comfortable car I've ever driven. Recently a hotel valet praised it as "a classic."
It made me feel very old.

[NoMoreRepugs]

12. 1998-2016 for my Mercedes 240 Kompressor. Have only bought

1 year old certified used since. I too believe I am way ahead $$ wise.

[dsp3000]

13. Yep. We have 3 cars for two drivers. Two cars are geriatric

An 08 TSX with a 6 speed manual, 210k miles, an 07 RX350 with 155k miles, and our newer 17 MDX hybrid with 105k miles.

I daily drive and commute daily with the two older cars. If one of them needs maintenance I can do it myself without being stressed out because we have the third car. Even with the extra insurance costs I've saved a ton by not driving a newer vehicle. I will cave in eventually one day.

[Johonny]

14. I always drove my cars into the ground

It just makes economic sense too

[lark]

15. My husband has a 2005 truck and I have a 2010 Mercedes.

Both run great and are in good condition and we intend to keep them until the wheels fall off or we pass.

[palinny]

16. My Lexus is 27 years old, bought new in 1997

I promised to drive it for 30 years when my husband bought it for me as my first-ever and only new car. I had driven for 20 years (16 to 36 y.o.) in old rust-buckets that always broke down at the most inopportune and dangerous times. He bought me what was, at that time, the most reliable new car on the market (American-made cars didn't even rate in the top five for reliability). I do worry, though, that the airbags might not deploy due to their age, so we don't drive the car on highways anymore.

[justaprogressive]

24. You could have the airbags replaced professionally

I'd say it was worth it in your case...

[palinny]

43. Thank you! I didn't know that is possible.

I'm going to call the dealer today! DU has such great people who always help others which is why I always make this site my first read of the day.

[Happy Hoosier]

17. I usually keep my cars at least 10 years.

Gonna replace the minivan this year. It's now 15 and starting to have more frequent maintenenace requirements. Nothing serious, but it's our "long trip" vehicle and we need it to be as bullet-proof as possible. Maintenance problems on the road are ZERO fun.

I am looking forward to some newer features like an adaptive cruise control. My Accord has that, that's a very nice feature. Jeez, my "new" accord is already approaching 7 years old! It replaced a 15 year old Accord before that.

I take care of the cars and don't replace them until it makes sense. I don;t drive "until the wheels fall off" becasue reliability matters a lot me. Once they start having more frequent "pop-ups," it's time for a new one.

[onlyadream]

20. This is how you save $$$

However, my 91 yo mother's 1993 car just had a part die and we can't find a replacement. The decision to get another car is tricky, given her age. She's sharp as a tack, but is it worth it at this point?

Anyway, the idea of a perpetual car payment is ridiculous.

[justaprogressive]

22. Twincam Toys!

wife's 13 years old
mine's 10 years old

f'ing bulletproof

[AllaN01Bear]

23. i remember reading in old books where the local skin flint at 80 was still driving his original model t.

[Trueblue Texan]

25. I was almost 60 before I bought my first new car

I traded that one up in 2019 for a car I really wanted--a Subaru Outback-- and plan to have it the rest of my life. I have only owned one new major appliance in my life. I would much rather find household items at estate sales or garage sales than buy them new because I just like these better. I know I've saved thousands upon thousands of dollars by having these preferences and I've probably helped the planet along the way. Plus, it's fun looking through other peoples stuff! ehehehe

[Chainfire]

26. That has always been my policy. I hate car payments.

I buy them new and drive them to the junk yard when I am through with them.

[Susan Calvin]

27. 2006 Accord here.

I've spent more on repairs than most people would probably think was a good idea, but I love that car. It's the only car I've ever been able to drive for hours on end without having it hurt my body.

[ThreeNoSeep]

28. I haven;t owned a new vehicle ever.

Buy 'em used. I keep the oil changed, the maintenance current, and the only enemy is rust. I hope my next used heap will be electric.

[CaptainTruth]

30. My 2 cars are 42 & 60 years old, & I'm looking at one 93 years old.

Of course I've done work on them over the years to restore them & keep them road worthy, & the 1931 I'm looking at is an unfinished restomod with all new modern suspension & drive train. It's attractive because someone already did the hard & expensive work but I don't feel like I should take on another project when my other 2 cars still need work.

[raccoon]

32. Only problem with that is, after too many years, the car can become unreliable.

I had an 86 Corolla that I bought new and finally got another car in 2004.
The Corolla had been a real good car. I maintained it well.

But as it aged, more than once, I'd be riding along and smell burnt rubber...and uh-oh.
The car broke down on me more than once. Several times on long trips.

Finally, I heard what the universe was trying to tell me and I replaced the car.
But most of my cars, I've kept them for years.

[Happy Hoosier]

45. That's me... reliability is king.

I can live with the car being out of date in terms of styling and even some features. BUT, when the car starts having unplanned mainenance issues with any regularity, it's time to replace it. I want my car to work as close to 100% of the time as I can. I do keep up with regular maintenance and all that.

My 14-15 year old Honda Odyssey is starting to have more pop-up problems than I'd like. Time to replace it.

[NBachers]

33. Just sold my 2005 Ford Focus 5-Speed with 235,000 miles. I saved & got a new Corolla for cash- upgraded to a better

package with low payments that'll be finished off this year. The Corolla was $25,674 Out The Door. I'm 75, and I'll drive it till my wheels fall off.

[justaprogressive]

36. heh

your wheels may well fall off before its

[CanonRay]

38. My father would buy a new Buick every other year.

Like clockwork. Tho2se days are gone, and cars are much better.

[Wednesdays]

39. During the pandemic, we watched all sorts of videos on YouTube

about reliable cars. One channel we most often watched was Scotty Kilmer, a long-time mechanic who I think works somewhere around Houston. Anyway, he frequently praised the reliability of Toyotas and Hondas, and he showed a Toyota he has owned since the early 1990s that he says has needed little maintenance over the years.

Our latest vehicle, that we bought February 2022? A 2018 Toyota RAV4. It's got over 71,000 miles now and still runs like a charm. We plan on keeping it for a long, long time.

[MissB]

40. I'm hoping to keep this car for as long as I drive

I have a 2021 electric car. Our state keeps talking about instituting a per mile tax for electric vehicles and it would apply to new cars.

But, it’s also super expensive to buy a new car nowadays. I’ve always bought used (couple of years old) until this car. We’d bought Dh a new truck back in 2019, also his first new vehicle.

He’s retired; I’m still working. We don’t drive much day to day, so there isn’t a lot of wear and tear happening. The truck takes us on a multi state trip once a year or so, but other than that it may see 100 miles a week max and usually far less than that.

The math presented is true- keeping a car a long time makes financial sense, and buying used cars upfront usually saves you $.

[Rebl2]

41. My husband

and I have always held on to our cars for many years. We had a Bonneville for 16 years and were hoping to hold on to it for another year, but we were t-boned. This was two weeks after my husband retired in 2017. We were not happy to say the least. We ended up buying a Toyota Camry @ 0% interest-got lucky with that. The next year Toyota started raising interest rates on their vehicles. We have yet to have a problem with it.

[Aristus]

42. I bought my Acura new twelve years ago, and is pretty much at the average age mentioned in the article.

I see no reason to get a new car any time soon.

My wife had her own Acura that she drove for around twenty years before trading it in for a used Honda Accord.

Companies keep driving up the prices of everything, we're just going to buy all of our stuff on the secondary market. Serve them right.

[Ms. Toad]

46. My first gen 2004 Honda Insight is still going strong.

Everyone (spouse, auto mechanic) keep asking me every time I toss $500-$1000 at it whether I really want to keep it because the repair cost is more than the value of the car. My answer is always - that isn't the smart money way to look at it. The car gets 47-50 mpg, so it costs me almost nothing to run, other than routine maintenance (which I would have for every car) and the occasional larger expenses - on average every other year or so. Why, on earth, would I spend $10,000 - $20,000 on a new used car to increase my routine operating expenses (don't know of any other gas/hybrid car that gets the gas mileage I do) - and would require (at best) 10 years of bigger expenditures to break even?

That said, the car is getting close to the end of its life - not for mechanical reasons, but because the vehicle was such a small run, for a very few years, that it is no longer economically viable for the manufacture to make parts for it. The last repair I needed to pass e-check required a salvage part - and the check engine light is on again.

I had my eye on ElioMotors to replace it - but pretty sure that hope has died. (Thank goodness I didn't make a pledge to save my place in line.) Not sure what is next on the horizon

[shrike3]

47. Have a 2003 Lincoln Town Car.

120,,000 miles on it. I'll be holding onto it for a while yet.

[peggysue2]

49. I can add my name to the: Drive 'Em Till They Die List

My husband's car is 1999 Toyota 4-Runner with about 140,000 miles. This was the SUV we carted the kids and their stuff to college and back, used for vacation trips to the Jersey shore, and made multiple trips back and forth between Knoxville, TN and Philly.

My car, a 2011 Lincoln MKX was bought when the Toyota was beginning to show her age and was a questionable choice for long distance trips. I have about 60,000 miles on the vehicle. It was our first and only 'luxury' vehicle and I suspect will be our last car (unless we decide to switch to a hybrid or EV). Mags has been a great car--reliable, requiring only seasonal maintenance and super comfortable for long drives. I just bought her a new set of tires. The tire guy was amazed I was running on the original set. LOL.

So yes, buying 'new' every 3 years (the way my father-in-law did), trading one car payment for another would drive me nuts.

But then, to each his own.

[Auggie]

50. Kept my VW for 23 1/2 years. Over 230,000 miles.

The second transmission died last December. It was time to let it go.

[patphil]

53. My car is a 2007 Honda Accord with over 250K miles on it.

It's always been garaged, and I keep up on the recommended maintenance.
It still looks good and runs strong.
My wife's car is the "new" car. It's a 2014 Honda Accord with about 210K miles on it. She's a librarian, and still commutes about 30 miles each way 5 days a week. It still looks good and runs strong (just like her ).
I expect we'll have both cars for several more years.

[JustAnotherGen]

55. My husband bought a new to him

Pick Up Truck in February . . . His previous truck that he junked - was a 2001 Yukon. This will be his last 'new' vehicle while we are based in America. We might even ship it down to Costa Rica if they will allow it in 6 or 7 years.

[gay texan]

56. Just got a 1966 1/2 ton long bed chevy pickup from the elderly neighbor. Traded some labor for it, got the title!

Sitting in a field for years, V-8 w/ a 4 speed. Here's what its going to take to get it back on the road. It looks rough, but its all there. We are talking a no frills BASIC no option pickup. Only has a heater and windshield wipers. These are coil spring pickups, so they ride really nice

New motor, building it myself, $2k
new front end $350 bucks
New wiring harness $90
Modern add on fuel injection $1k
Brakes $350 with some up grades
underdash Air conditioning $500
Tires $650
Miscellaneous stuff, ill go 1k

$6k to get it back on the road. I could add a 5 speed manual w/overdrive (better gas mileage and highway manners) for $500 w/ wrecking yard parts.

we will say 6500 tops and it will drive for years and years. And it will go up in value!!!!

Or i could just pop on down to my local friendly Chevrolet dealer and pay 60k plus TTL for a basic truck. The only way i could afford it is by putting it on a 72 month or greater loan. By the time its gets paid off, it's worn out. For an average middle class guy like me, it's not worth it.

I'll get my hands dirty for basic transportation

[Ocelot II]

57. 15 year old Saturn Vue.

It’s been pretty reliable and low- maintenance. Right now I’m at the repair shop waiting for replacement of shock absorbers, since it has been riding rough lately, but most of the repairs it’s needed have been minor. I’ll probably keep it until it falls apart.

[Bundbuster]

58. 1997 Toyota Camry still runs like new after 27 years

Prior car was a Honda Accord for 20 years which was perfect until the transmission went. Saved a ton of $$ by not getting new, new, new.

[AwakeAtLast]

59. As a teacher

I have never owned a car less than 5 years old, most were over 10, and I drive them until I absolutely need something different.

[uponit7771]

60. I'm currently looking for kids and no doubt going to get them a 2012+ with 90 -110k miles on it. People keep their cars

... as long as they do their houses now

[hunter]

61. I bought a new car once in the 'eighties when I was young and foolish.

I'll never do that again.

I usually keep my cars until something catastrophic happens to them.

The last catastrophe was caused by a distracted driver who went off the road and smashed into my car while it was parked in my driveway. That car would have been good for at least a 100,000 miles more. Sigh. I bought it for $900 and put about another $1,000 into it to make it reliable.

I'm a pretty good mechanic and do most car repairs myself.

In a better world we'd be rebuilding our cities to turn them into attractive and affordable places where car ownership is unnecessary. With a human population of 8 billion this planet cannot support an automobile for every adult. Generally speaking the people with the smallest environmental footprints live in cities, don't own cars, and eat a mostly vegetarian diet.

[Trashman272]

63. Wasn't there a program

Years ago where they bought used cars to get older cars off the road to help people drive newer cleaner cars. It probably wouldn't help enough to get my out of my old toyota but it couldn't hurt. Maybe a credit towards an EV or something.

[Quixote1818]

64. My Honda CRV has over 300,000 miles. When you put the money saved into Index Funds, over time the savings

or should I say earnings, can end up being hundrds of thousands of dollars.

&t=41s

[bedazzled]

65. I had to get rid of my mom's horrible town and country at the end of 2022

Worst possible time to buy a car. I never wanted a new car (prefer one year off lease, like the prizm I drove for 20 years) but no go at the time. Overpaid for a 2022 accord. Just hope it lasts. All the bells and whistles concern me. More to break down. I would not have power windows if i had a choice.

[Hassler]

67. My "new" car is a 2007 Mazda 3. Great car

The other one is a 2003 Ford Ranger I bought 9 years ago.