Why don't people in tornado-prone areas

[YarnAddict]

have basementss?

That's something I've always wondered about. A bad tornado hit my hometown in Wisconsin a couple of years ago, and there was only one minor injury, and that is largely because virtually every home has a basement, and most people were in them.

Seems like people in Oklahoma and Texas would make that a priority.

[NutmegYankee]

1. Sometimes the terrain prohibits it.

May be a high water table or shallow rock.

[KamaAina]

35. That was the case in Joplin, Mo.

Joplin is a mining town which, unsurprisingly, is right on top of bedrock. Hence, no cellars.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

65. That and many were very old "Mining shacks".

Many were old small homes that miners lived in and over time changed their looks.

[orleans]

105. one of the news stations said they had a high water table. n/t

[hrmjustin]

2. The rock requires Dynamite to get through.

[GoneOffShore]

3. Many people have storm cellars.

Sometimes the tornadoes show up without much warning.

Perhaps you should investigate before you judge?

Be kind. Everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. - Plato

[YarnAddict]

15. I'm not judging.

I'm just curious.

One of the first things I learned weather-wise is on a muggy day, when it gets really DARK in the middle of the day, to head for the basement.

[Logical]

4. Everyone I know in Kansas/Missouri has one. But good ground for it. n-t

[xmas74]

46. I don't.

I live in a trailer-for now. (Saving money to move soon-yay!) But I do have friends less than a mile away that have places and we keep our "bug-out bag" next to the door, along with shoes, in case we need to leave quickly.

[Logical]

80. Smart. n-t

[loyalsister]

47. Unless they live in a trailer...

In my area, there are also some very small houses built on the cheap many many yrs. ago that don't have them. In other words, many poor people don't have basements.

[xmas74]

61. You see lots of the "storm shelters" for sale

along 50 hwy because a number of houses do not have basements. Personally, I don't think I could handle the shelters.

[loyalsister]

64. I don't think I could handle the shelters.

What are they like?

[xmas74]

71. Remember they used to have the small metal rooms in museums

that were modeled after U-Boats? They feel a little like that-very confining.


I tried it once. I had to leave-went outside with a beer and watched the storm roll in.

[loyalsister]

72. I don't remember them

I do remember having tornado drills in elementary school once a month or so.

[xmas74]

75. Imagine being in a room underground that is all metal

and about the size of a bathroom in a trailer, made for six to eight people.

I couldn't handle it.

[loyalsister]

77. Ick

I definitely couldn't take it. Do you remember the houses built into hills?

[xmas74]

79. Like the earth contact?

Now those are nice to ride out a storm in. A friend had one and the tornado jumped right over her house. She didn't even have to wake her kids in the middle of the night. And they're really good on utilities!

[loyalsister]

81. Yep I grew up in one

Three sides were surrounded by earth.
We lived in the "basement" with two bedrooms upstairs.

[xmas74]

83. I would own one.

I loved my friend's. She had dirt-cheap heating and cooling bills.

[loyalsister]

84. My dad still lives in ours

probably always will

[Logical]

82. That is true. n-t

[Demo_Chris]

5. Most of us have no money and no shelter. nt

[Texasgal]

6. We have storm shelters.

Reinforced walls and buildings etc. Ofcourse, I am not sure what Oklahoma had in Moore for schools. I know here in Austin we have storm shelter rooms at schools.

In many parts of Texas, including where I am there is no way you could build a basement. We are on limestone.

Also, this was a highly populated area. The debris ball was over two miles wide and it was an F4. Many people survive smaller tornado's. This one was big and nasty. And quite devastating.

[YarnAddict]

24. A friend of mine recently moved to the Dallas area

She posted on FB that she rode out the tornado last week in the bathtub. Can't imagine how scary that would have been.

Being located on limestone would be a good reason not to dig a basement.

[Jane Austin]

66. That's what I've always been told, but

Austin is choc-a-bloc with inground swimming pools.

If you can build a pool, why not a small basement?

[Texasgal]

69. aren't basements deeper than pools

??

Take my parents house for example. Mom and Dad have had massive issues with foundation. Btw- they have a pool. Found out that under my folks house are caverns with water that pools underneath. A basement with that much weight on top of it would never work. They live in old west Austin where this is quite common.

On edit: Regardless, the weight of the homes is the problem. My parents second story is pocked with issues because of foundation issues.

I hope that you are not suggesting that people without basements are just cheap bastards, there is a reason.

[Jane Austin]

107. No, of course not.

Most people don't build their own houses. They buy one that was built by someone else.

I just don't think it's in the mindset of builders here to put in a basement.

With our heat, it would be a blessing.

When our house burned down 13 years ago and we were planning to replace it, I asked the builder about a storm room. He literally laughed in my face, saying the odds were that I wouldn't need it.

I remember reading that one of the only residents in the path of the Jarrell F5 tornado who survived had dug a shelter underneath his mobile home.

[LeftInTX]

78. Basements are prone to flooding and mold.

In old homes, they can be outright stinky.
In my grandparent's home, I was scared to go down there.

It would be nice to have basements all over Central Texas, but I don't know if folks would warm up to them. It would be expensive to build them. The rooms don't have windows. It costs to heat and cool them. Up north, our basement was always our storage room.

[X_Digger]

110. We actually have a finished basement in Fort Worth.

There are windows in every room (with deep window wells). The basement is always 5 degrees cooler in the summer. We have a sump pump in a closet to deal with the water accumulation- it's channeled from the weeping tile that surrounds the foundation, and is pumped up out to street level.

Our house was built in 1987, and there are only about five in this development with a basement- some quirk of the area caused deeper pockets of soil (vs rock) making it amenable to a basement.

[X_Digger]

109. If the limestone is porous, you wouldn't have to fill the pool intentionally.

It's hard stone, that conducts water very efficiently.

Great for a pool, not so great for a basement.

[quinnox]

7. I dunno. I wonder why people even live in tornado prone areas

I have heard they are one of the most scary weather phenomenons, I would move away from places like that.

[randome]

10. The risk of a tornado is pretty widespread.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[quinnox]

13. Exactly. We don't have to worry about this way out West.

We have other things like earthquakes, but those are fairly uncommon, at least major ones.

[Texasgal]

16. So I guess we should ALL move to California?

[Lex]

20. Mudslides, massive wildfires, and earthquakes. nt

[Texasgal]

21. Right?

I'd rather not fall off into the ocean!

[lob1]

43. The truth is, California rises out of the ocean with the quakes.

During the last big quake, the Northridge quake, we rose 3 feet.

[Downtown Hound]

38. Big earthquakes happen maybe once or twice a century around here

Tornadoes happen every year. Mudslides and wildfires are easy to deal with by comparison.

[kentauros]

23. Yeah, let's all move to

The Ring of Fire

No thanks. I'll put up with the hurricanes, which can be predicted and you have time to move out of their paths.

[Texasgal]

28. When something happens

are we allowed to ask why they live there and why they just don't move?

[kentauros]

32. Well, if we don't,

being DU, there will always be someone that does

[okwmember]

85. Exactly. I have lived on different coasts in Florida my whole life,

and lived through some of the worst storms, but I have always said I would rather live in a hurricane prone area because, for the most part, we are given fair warning. Time to prepare and evacuate. Although I will say that things are starting to change. Used to we could watch a storm form off the coast of Africa and have up to a couple of weeks to get ready, but now storms just seem to pop up in the Gulf of Mexico and in the Caribbean. So our prep time is diminishing.

I am curious about building codes in the tornado prone areas. It wasn't until after Andrew that Florida codes (specifically Dade County) were strengthened. But I suspect given the strength of these storms the code necessary to avoid such devastation would not be economically viable.

[kentauros]

87. I remember seeing a show on PBS

(it may have been NOVA) talking about ways to make an inner safe area. With the use of 2x4 throwing machine, they determined first that a single wall of cinder blocks aren't enough. Whereas two brick walls with a space between (I think it might have been as little as 6-8 inches) was enough to stop the board. The first wall acted like ablative armor, significantly reducing the momentum of the projectile. The second wall easily stopped it as it had to then go through a fully intact second barrier.

Now, I don't know how expensive that would be, but it's a relatively low-tech form of protection

[quinnox]

37. there many other states other than California in the West

to pick from.

[Texasgal]

39. I was totally being silly.

I guess you're not?

You are not serious, are you?

[quinnox]

42. serious about what?

Yea, I was serious if you mean would I move away from tornado prone areas. Sure, I would if it was me.

[MADem]

55. Last time I was living in CA, I 'enjoyed' the Loma Prieta quake.

We had no power for days; they cancelled the World Series. Buildings cracked, the freeway fell down, a lotta people were killed. No pic-a-nic.

[REP]

76. I can see the epicenter of the Loma Prieta from my porch!

I live on Loma Prieta, and I really can see the epicenter from my porch. The house was fine - no water for six months, though.

[kentauros]

89. I've been realtively lucky enduring hurricanes.

But never had to go without water for more than a day or two. How did you get through six months of no water? I'm genuinely curious

[REP]

95. Easy. I didn't live here at the time!

I only bought this house two years ago

[kentauros]

98. Okay, that makes more sense!

It's like after Ike, the rest of my neighborhood was without power for three weeks. Other than the lucky few that had generators (or snaked power cords over to the apartments, like mine) it was a ghost town.

[MADem]

92. I was further away and living in a house that had shock absorbers on it.

The house had a carport beneath. The house bounced like a pogo stick. I kept my gas, water and my phone (I was on it when the quake hit, and just tossed it and headed for the bathtub because that was supposed to be the safest place owing to the tile and pipes and so forth) but had no electricity for days. My computer (early days, then, I'd just installed a HARD DRIVE and had a couple of five and a quarter floppies) started walking across the desk towards me (miraculously sustaining no damage) and my television (full size vintage color, round-screened RCA w/cabinet) strolled to the middle of the living room and died, never to work again, alas). EVERYTHING in my cabinets was scrambled--everything, but the cabinets had latches so nothing broke. Everything in closets came off of hangers and hooks. Every picture was askew. But there was very little breakage.

I was very popular amongst my set as I had the only working telephone for a couple of days.

[RudynJack]

96. California averages

4 tornadoes per year.

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/cae/svrwx/tornadobystate.htm

No place is free from natural disasters. Earthquakes, blizzards, ice storms, tornadoes, hurricanes, volcanoes...

[Politicalboi]

12. With Climate change

A lot of places have become scary places. I live in Ca and I would rather have an earthquake than a tornado any day.

[GoneOffShore]

14. There is nowhere left to move to.

And the tornadoes and hurricanes are only going to get stronger and more frequent.

[cali]

27. oh, Vermont's pretty safe. Earthquakes and Tornadoes are not widespread

plenty of good water. Of course there's a long winter and occasional flooding but that's about it.

[marybourg]

41. Arizona desert. Dare I mention it?

[dlwickham]

52. blizzards

just saying

[bitchkitty]

56. AND they have medical marijuana

and gay marriage! win-win!

[Auntie Bush]

94. Beat me to it.

Was just thinking that...but didn't want too many people moving to VT. lol

[IDemo]

48. There's one thing Boise is good for, anyway

There are very few truly bad weather events; once or twice a summer we may get a thunderstorm with 50 mph gusts. A noticeable change of seasons but no severe heat or cold like much of the rest of the nation. The rest of the state calls our area the 'banana belt'.

But, we did have the lower 48's most powerful quake in years 30 years ago and are overdue for another.

[pipoman]

17. Where would you go? LOL

Florida? Cali?

[quinnox]

36. that depends on the person, but the United States is huge

plenty of places to move to, in that "white safe zone" on the map the whole West is relatively safe from tornadoes. Montana, Arizona, Washington, Nevada, California, etc. Take your pick.

[pipoman]

45. Well until Cali drops into the pacific AZ and NV will always be on borrowed water

San Andreas has a bit of complacency surrounding it IMO..Forested states and their wild fires, Northern states and their horrific winters, coastal states and the instability of coasts and rising sea levels..I live and have lived in a 100+ year old farm houses in KS and NE my whole life. I've seen the devastation several times. I was 14 when I saw first hand..I was in Grand Island NE the evening of June 8, 1980. From a terrifying night came a calm..life is dangerous and fatal..

[Celldweller]

88. common misconception...

Southern California lives on Arizona water... not the other way around. Without "out of state" water, So. California could not exist.
It's this thing called the Colorado River Aqueduct.

Northern and Central California do pretty well with water but from Santa Barbara south its an irrigated desert.

[Mariana]

50. I've known only one person who died in a tornado.

It happened in Massachusetts.

[oldhippie]

57. Well, some people have to live there ....

... to like, you know, grow food? Somebody has to feed all those city slickers.

[pnwmom]

104. It's hard to find a place that is subject to no natural hazards.

No earthquakes, fires, hurricanes, or tornados.

[maxsolomon]

8. Basically, because they can't afford them.

Especially in a mobile home.

[Myrina]

9. I've wondered that too, since I moved to IN

Grew up in WI - everyone had a basement.

Got to IN about 10 years ago & basements were basically nowhere to be found. Over the past 5 years builders seem to be making them more standard & less of a "add on" but ... really? This is "Tornado Alley" ... basements should be standard issue.

[LeftInTX]

22. Yep, everyone had them in Wisconsin.

It has to do with the ground freezing and how deep it freezes. Frost heaving is a concern. I think in Wisconsin, it was 8-12 feet.

I think newer construction methods are able to withstand frost heaving without going down as deep. (Not sure what they do differently)

I grew up in Wisconsin and everyone had full basements.

[dixiegrrrrl]

26. Fla. you hit water 2 feet down, same with any areas near the Gulf.

In other areas around here, flooding is a problem, because of the torrential monsoon like rains we get.
I do know 2 neighbors close to me who have enough of a split level home that we could shelter there if needed, in a far basement corner.
But most homes in my area/county are built on cement slabs.
And LOTS of houses in small towns are 50-60 or more years old.
Hell, I consider it progress if they build newer homes with hurricane wind protection in the roof joists.

[LeftInTX]

11. In South and Central Texas we have no topsoil. We got a few inches of soil.

Then it is solid limestone.

I don't live in tornado alley though.
Jerrell, Texas was hit by an F5 in 1997.
Therefore the possibility of a large tornado can occur in the Austin area. And I think the Jerrell tornado spawned an F3 in the Austin area.

San Antonio was hit by an F3 way back in 1927.

[kentauros]

19. And on the coasts,

the water table is only a few feet down. Sure, we could have cellars, but only if we don't mind them being full of water and/or toxic mold all year round.

My question for the OP is why don't more people understand the geology of this continent? Cellars in the north were historically used for storing food in the winter, partly due to it being easy to keep things cold. They weren't originally designed as tornado shelters.

[Texasgal]

25. +1

Thanks for that.

[YarnAddict]

30. Don't know why more people don't know these things

Maybe because we've been out of school for a very long time, or maybe we never had to give it much thought.

[kentauros]

33. I've been out of school for decades.

Yet, I'm still curious enough to seek out that kind of information, if only to help others understand how to ask informed questions in situations like this.

[Texasgal]

31. I remember that storm

I was stuck on IH 35 under the 15th street bridge for close to an hour! Never saw rain that horrible in my life!

[Jane Austin]

70. That Jarrell tornado plowed right on through to

Cedar Park, a suburb of Austin.

If you can build an inground swimming pool in Austin - and they are everywhere - you should be able to dig a basement.

I think builders mostly don't want to build basements.

[susanr516]

108. The Jarrell tornado was the worst I remember

It was so bad, it even took the streets and the slab foundations of the houses. I've lived in TX all my life, I've seen a LOT of tornado damage. I've never seen anything like Jarrell; there wasn't even any debris. Like a vacuum cleaner had sucked everything up.

[Horse with no Name]

18. Many homes in this area are on pier and beam

and the ones that are on foundations "settle".

We have a storm cellar which is detached from the house.

[panader0]

29. I've been in construction for forty years

I am a brick/blocklayer and it isn't that hard to build a building that can survive a tornado. The job I am doing now is a 24x36 garage, 12 feet tall, and has lots of concrete and rebar. Verticals, grouted solid on four foot centers, horizontal bond beams three times.
I believe that most damage comes from shabby building codes (or trailer parks).
Here's hoping that there aren't many hurt.

[tanyev]

34. Find me a home developer here who builds homes with basements

and we'll buy one. We finally had an after-market storm room installed and it's a huge relief. I don't know why developers don't at least offer reinforced storm rooms as an extra option. Maybe the $$$$$$$ developers do.

[Major Nikon]

40. Basements are more common in colder climates

Colder climates require deeper foundations and aren't as conducive to concrete slab floors. If you are already several feet down with the foundation, it's not that much more expensive to go ahead and construct a basement. The foundation on my home in Texas is less than a foot deep.

Even in Oklahoma, lightening kills more people than tornados. It's not the threat that some see it as.

[bhikkhu]

44. "safe rooms" are more the norm there

from what I have been told by a relative who lived there. Her house was a flimsy stick-built, but in right the middle it had a bathroom built out of cement block, with a good strong door and ceiling. That was the tornado room, and she told me most houses had one.

[RebelOne]

49. Well, I live in a tornado-prone area in Georgia,

and I live in a mobile home. Tell me how to build a basement under my house.

[kwassa]

51. First you get a shovel.

and here is an inspirational picture for you:

Early Work on the Grand Canyon.

?zz=1

[RebelOne]

53. Funny. I am not laughing. n/t

[csziggy]

91. That guy that shot the bus driver and kidnapped the kid built one

He buried a shipping container and outfitted it with living facilities. He called it a bomb shelter or bunker - same concept. That is how he managed to hold the kid for nearly a week - with only one way to access it, he could control the situation. He had a few acres outside Dothan, Alabama. His house was a mobile home. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/police-announcement-coming-ala-hostage

I've seen plans for hurricane and storm shelters that were basically fiberglass septic tanks buried underground. I thought about doing that when we still lived in our double wide, but we went through two hurricanes in that house and never felt unsafe.

[truedelphi]

106. But how would people know where to find you?

One advantage to a basement is that it sits directly under the house, so people know that's where you would be if you survived. But if people have shelters out in their back yard somewhere, how do those people know they would get found after the storm? (And some people have huge back yards in OK and KS.)

[csziggy]

111. Even with basements, it can be hard to find people

If an entire house is demolished on top of you, getting out can be hard.

On a crime forum I visit, they have people who monitor police scanners. The scanners after the tornado yesterday have numerous calls for people trapped in their storm shelters. It was not clear if those shelters were in basements or separate from houses that no longer existed.

[csziggy]

112. I heard this morning that in OK people register their storm shelters

I think it was on CNN or Weather Channel and it was a passing remark, so I have no link. The reporters were discussing the search for survivors and one said (paraphrased), "In this state, people register their shelters so searchers know where to look."

Nice idea but how useful is registration of storm shelters when all landmarks are wiped off the map? Maybe GPS coordinates are used for location data?

[truedelphi]

113. That's my concern, too. So much of eveything relating to buildings and their plans

And locations ends up over at the County Planning Office, or some such.

If that building gets wiped off the map, then what?

[csziggy]

115. Many counties are now putting all their property appraiser info online

If the registered storm shelters are kept in an online database, as long as the servers holding the info are secure, that information would be accessible.

And it makes sense for counties to do that anyway. The property appraisal info is vital for collecting property taxes so they need to keep it even if the county offices are wiped out.

[JCMach1]

54. when I rented in Oklahoma, I had a house that had a built-in nuclear shelter/basement

F6??? No problem...

[liberal N proud]

58. Pure geology.

[Buzz Clik]

60. +1

[Buzz Clik]

59. I lived in Zone IV for 30+ years. Basement all the time.

I now live in Zone III with no basement. The soil here is a brutal expanding clay that collapses basements in a heartbeat.

[alwaztypin]

62. Single mom in Okiehoma

My kids and I have thankfully been lucky when we have had to "ride out" a tornado in my area of SW Oklahoma. We climb under a very heavy built-in desk with our mattresses. I worry now when that luck might run out

[xmas74]

67. Never fun.

I rode one out once in my bathtub while seven months pregnant. I'd rather not repeat that experience.

[hrmjustin]

68. welcome to Du and glad you are safe!

[NotThisTime]

63. I heard the problem in OK is clay.... they can't build basements and underground shelters are very

expensive, now I'd say the expense is worth it....

[ScreamingMeemie]

73. Here in Houston, you can't have a basement.

When my house was built, in 2008, the master bedroom closet (in the very center of the house) is reinforced with steel beams and is designated as a storm room on the blueprints.

[jazzimov]

74. because they cost money?

[ThoughtCriminal]

86. Lots of people rent

Odds are the landlord isn't required to provide one, so they don't. The tenants can rarely afford to build one, even if allowed.

[Celldweller]

90. Under Garage Floor Shelters

These are getting more and more popular. Basically a company comes to your house and cuts a large rectangle hole in your concrete garage floor maybe 12' x 8" and dig straight down maybe 4-6' then they place a solid steel box in there with sliding steel doors on top.

[treestar]

93. There are some

I recall people being in them in earlier news stories about tornadoes. Or they weren't basements but holes in the ground with doors on them.

[Brainstormy]

97. I grew up in tornado country

The Mississippi Delta. And while basements weren't the norm there, storm shelters were. I've spent many a trembling hour huddled in a dark, moldy smelling storm shelter, lined with canned goods and relatives I wasn't crazy about. We were always fine. The devastation was always poorly constructed homes, decaying barns,
and ramshackle structures without solid foundations. Sometimes people just caught in the open. We had a saying: Divorce or tornado. Either way you lose the trailer.

[LostOne4Ever]

99. Caliche

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliche_(mineral)

[Yo_Mama]

100. Well, we live in a pretty high tornado area, and we don't have one

You know why? Because it would be flooded just about ALL the time. Even if you had a pump running all the time, it would be flooded.

Sometimes it's not possible. We do have an arrangement with a reinforced interior room, and I've had to head there with the dogs. I don't think it would hold up against a 4 or 5 tornado, though.

People were wondering why the kids were still at school, but in many areas, the school is the safest place to be. It's certain that if you sent the kids home, many of them would be in more danger.

The only housing a lot of people can afford around the country are mobile homes, and they are the worst.

[SheilaT]

101. Every part of the country has its hazards.

Sometimes you can choose quite freely where you can live. Sometimes you're restricted by job, or family, or whatever.

But before anyone criticizes others for living where there are tornadoes, or earthquakes, or hurricanes, or blizzards, or drought, or forest fires -- did I leave anything out? -- keep in mind that we have vastly different reasons for living where we do, and just about every time I'm thinking to myself, "Boy, I wouldn't want to live THERE!" someone here posts something about how truly wonderful that place is and why they'll stay there forever. Tends to give me perspective.

[baldguy]

102. I'm guessing they aren't required by the building codes.

Can't have any job-killing regulations, ya' know.

[pnwmom]

103. A lot of them live in apartments or mobile homes. n/t

[librechik]

114. apparently the ground is as hard a concrete there, making it costly to dig.

But it seems to me that a tornado alley-county that came up with money for a sports stadium could have made a better try building shelters for the grade schoolers. Priorities...