I truly believe that 20 years from now.......

...and just don't know it yet?

nt

Maybe we are all like the frog in hot water,and everyday the water temp is going up by a degree, and we're all gonna boil soon.

there's zero chance "the people" aren't. A very scary thought indeed that crosses my mind almost daily for weeks now if not months.

it is going to be a close call. Some real patriots must make a stand, and then I'm not that sure. Ignorance is a tough opponent to over come.

.... Chipping away at our Democracy. The stupid selfish greedy idiots among us buys into this hook, line, and sinker, then gleefully gulps down the fishing rod and tackle box as if they can't get their fix - or fill. If there is a hint of hate - they gobble it down like it was their last meal or something. Ravenous rabid wild animals who wear ignorance like a badge of courage, honor, and pride.

Ignorance = Intelligence
Stupidity = Wisdom
Charlatans = Political Leadership
Failure = Success

I seriously don't think we will pull out of it.

When you have 1/3 of a democracy that is 100 percent on board with where things are headed, and another 1/3 who genuinely thing "both sides are the same" hard to see us doing anything other than losing ground.

Yeah, we MIGHT get a solid to big "win" in November AND we might even manage to get the jackass out of the WH in 2020, and he might even face justice ... MIGHT.

But, it took W and company lying in the country into Iraq, the economy imploding to get a D POTUS and congress in 06 and 08, and in all this country's brilliance, it decided to give Rs the biggest mid term sweep in our lives in 08 over D passing the GOD DAMNED REPUBLICAN VERSION OF HEALTH CARE and then elected a meglomaniac in 16.

It takes the Rs being off the hooks horrible to get them a TO, but the country just goes along with them when they wake up the next morning ...

I think there may be a shred of hope left, but 2016 elected a right wing Supreme Court so it will take more than 20 years to make full repairs.

The November elections will tell us something. If marginal Trump voters (those who drank the kool-aid about Hillary, and those who refused to vote because Bernie was robbed of the nomination - their no-vote was a Trump vote) get wise and flood the polls with Democratic votes, there may be a chance.

But November will, at best, be able to stop the sinking of the ship of state into the waters of blatant fascism. To raise it out of those waters will take decades, not 20 years, maybe 100 years, maybe never. Remember: RBG may live to be 100, but Roberts, Alito, and Ann Burford's little boy Neil will out-live her by decades, and Trump is not finished with the Supremes yet.

You mean by the voters?

in history. That's my one worry but I still think the system will make the Con pay.

will go to their graves not admitting anything, lying, and defending their behavior. Just like the Bush Jr crowd will go to their graves saying the Iraq War was just and they didn't lie about it.

but incredibly i do fear that our democracy will be lost in my lifetime. we're on the edge. GOTV

Daily I watch the safeguards that I worked so hard to help put in place disappear. Hard not to be skeptical.

work around the house/yard, and think rationally I might be okay with 30 years.

But I don't think we'll have recovered from what the fascist GOP has done to this country over the past 40 years by the time I'm gone and another decade or so passes. And it's getting exponentially worse by the day since January 20, 2017. That worries me.

their misdeeds pile up, their harmful policies, their propaganda. scary.

When a major political party is no longer content to accept a loss at the ballot box, they go for winning with unethical/illegal means. If that still isn't enough for them to retain power exclusively, then they opt for brute force.

We find ourselves at a crossroads. Republican ideas and policies are inefficient, cruel, outdated, and dangerous to our health (both physical and economic). They "win" elections because they have Fox "News" and the Sinclair Group, they manipulate the electoral process to their exclusive advantage. They discourage or prohibit voters from registering if they represent groups they perceive to be hostile to their party. They solicit unlimited untraceable funds for their advertising in an attempt to swamp the media with their message. Thy have expert propagandists (Frank Luntz, e.g.) at their beck and call to convince their voters that day is night. As a last resort, they have vote-counting machines that only they make, and whose hard drives are not open to forensic inspection after a vote to make sure their reported results are not false. In some states (notably Wisconsin), the Republican governor even has a county (Waukesha) official who miraculously "finds" sacks of uncounted Republican votes when they turn out to be necessary.

We haven't been accused of this king of tactic since the days of Richard Daley's Chicago in the 1960s. I'm sure a few incidents have been overlooked. But with the Republicans, it's systematic. It's their M.O., their S.O.P. And it lets them win where they have, in fact, lost. This cannot last, of course. But it's not going to be easy to convince a party with a winning formula to give it up voluntarily, especially when the majority of its members are convinced that a manipulated Democracy is just the same as a real one.

It is well known that both Johnson and Kennedy won elections under suspicious circumstances.

But I'm going back even further, to the days when all ballots were paper, and ballot boxes were literally "stuffed" and dead people voted.

Amercian "democracy" has been corrupted for many, many years. It's all about and always about the money.

Like Zappa and Mencken predicted, the day has come when the mask comes off and we can all see what has been behind the scenes for so long. Trump has brought American corruption and the stupidity of a large section of Americans out into the open. That is all.

Sometimes, the election results do reflect the popular will. I was around for the election of 1964, and there is no way popular sentiment was with Goldwater. LBJ's victory was for real. I also think the popular (if temporary) disgust with Republican policies did lead to genuine victories by Carter, Clinton and Obama. I equally believe the elections of 1968, 1980, 1984, 2000, 2004 and 2016 absolutely did NOT reflect the popular will, and indeed, the country was worse off after the four years that followed every one of those elections.

I think the mass stupidity was always out in the open. It's just that with Trump, they finally feel they can be openly proud of it.

IIRC, it was early in his career.

But he won in 1980 with 44 states and by 7 million votes, and in 1984 with 49 states and 17 million votes. You're saying he wasn't elected by popular will???

The Republican deal with the Iranians not to release the hostages until after Reagan's inauguration pretty much sealed Carter's fate. I think he would have had a MUCH stronger shot at re-election without the media being able to hound Carter about it on a daily basis. Friz Mondale was a great VP in my view, and would have been a shoo-in for the White House in 1984 if he had been running as a sitting VP.

Ergo, if the election of Reagan was the result of dirty, deliberate mass manipulation of the popular will, then yes, I say he was not elected by a legitimate reading of the popular will.

Just an FYI, Kennedy would have won even without Illinois.

Which has already happened. Most Americans lean left, but we’re not properly represented. Laws being made go against what the majority of citizens want. If this continues, and continues to grow, there will be a very unhappy electorate. What happens then? Is that when the brute force happens, so the minority can retain, or regain power?

"Ustedes vencerán porque poseen la fuerza bruta, pero no convencerán."

"You will win, because you possess brute force, but you will persuade." And indeed, Franco's first decades were characterized by the rule of brute force.

And so it is: when the majority of voters are not being heard, then it is a form of government other than democracy. When intimidation, voter suppression and election manipulation are necessary to "win" an election, then that election has not been "won" at all. It has been seized. But Franco realized something long before Deng Xiaoping did (and Hitler never did): if you are going to run a dictatorship, the most successful ones are the ones where no one starves, everyone who shuts up counts as a good citizen, and everyone can find SOME job or at least a roof over their heads. THAT way, you can play the patriotism card, and have a substantial following of the intellectually incurious.

stop voting for one. They rightly or wrongly, whichever their case may be, believe their votes don't count.

there has never been a democracy quite like this one in history before. It is bigger, both in land mass and population, than any before it. It is more technologically advanced. Its people are better educated (despite what we may believe). And it was birthed in rebellion against tyranny. These are important factors to consider before terrifying yourself (and/or others!) with dark, dire speculations about our fate. Hang in there!

We don't hear from all of them, but they are there. And also there are many that now realize they've been had, that they fell for a string of lies. You made some good points in your summary IMO.

And thanks for the response.

My mood matches the thunderstorm happening outside my window this morning. It is a hard time with a long battle ahead. We do need to look at the facts in a more positive light.

Glad my words could help.

is we are by far the most diverse democracy in history. There have been many rebellions against tyranny across the world and what replaces one corrupt government is often something similar. I've thought about that and wondered what made us so different and decided that our diversity could be our strength.

I vacillate from a dooms day pessimism one day, to hopeful idealism the next. There are no guarantees, but I remember my reaction to Watergate, as I realized that the system really did work. I sit here on pins and needles, hoping that I will be able to live long enough to say that again.

I absolutely believe that our diversity is one of our greatest strengths. That's why Trump and his minions fear diversity.

That is a very good point as well. Of course, a tyrant would do everything possible to undermine our greatest strengths, while pitting one group against another. They are working from a very old playbook and Trump probably thinks he invented all these tactics.

But we are legion.

..that my morphine induced ramblings include my worry about the dr bills. My grand dtr will wipe my brow and say 'remember grandma...all the healhcare is free now! You dont have to worry about that anymore.'

And you can die knowing your grandchildren are living in a better world.

...so big and so gone.

ruled Europe in the Middle Ages. And Rome was vast, but all spread out and disconnected. They couldn't hold it together because of that. That's nothing like this country.

You don't think the American Empire is spread around the globe, and that our imperialism requires maintaining markets and sources of raw materials the world over and using our military might to assure that, and that that is not crumbling as we speak?

Are we on the same planet?

The American imperialism you speak of and the sprawl of the Roman Empire are simply not the same. Maybe the entirety of my comments will present a more clear picture of my view. And yes, we are most certainly on the same planet. That said, thank you for sharing your perspective, but I do not wish to argue, especially not today.

Bottled water will be 20 bucks a bottle and air won't be breathable. I suspect democracy will be the last thing on peoples' minds.

And even Eastern Europe's air and water quality is greatly improved since the fall of the Iron Curtain.
We also have new and better ways to purify water and that will only get better

and demonstrating that when I was old they would all be gone. Well, those are gone, but now we have new ones ... and they are of all ages. ... I think the democracy will last, because millions are now getting what's been going on ... and the GOP has been unmasked.

We ain't seen nothing yet. Their reckoning is coming. As Avenatti has been saying, it won't be pretty, but it IS coming. It's gonna be quite a ride, but hang on, and especially hang onto hope. Giving in to despair is what they want you to do. Don't go there.

Dissolving Congress or cancelling November's elections are hurdles to be overcome

Anything is possible

I don't think we will continue to be the United States for much longer. I truly fear for our future!

If we get 1 more state for a convention, IMO.

Are you sure of that? What about the United Kingdom? It seems to me that they have been a democracy, and they have lasted more than 300 years as a democracy. Or - does a constitutional monarchy count? Disqualified on a technicality? Then what exactly is your definition of a democracy? You may say that no perfect, total democracy has lasted more than 300 years - but heck, if you're looking for a perfect, total democracy, has one even lasted 3 years, or has it ever existed at all???

It is closer to 140 years. Today the monarchy is ceremonial. But that did not come about until towards the end of Queen Victoria's reign. Queen Victoria was the last monarch to exercise real personal power. In 1839 she became the last sovereign to keep a Prime Minister in power against the will of Parliament when the Bedchamber crisis resulted in the retention of Lord Melbourne's administration.

By the end of her reign she still exercised power in appointments to the Cabinet, for example in 1886 preventing Gladstone's choice of Hugh Childers as War Secretary in favor of Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman.

In addition people in the UK clearly have a reverence to the monarchy no matter how ceremonial. It is nothing like how people in the U.S. feel towards a president no matter who they are.

climate change, dwindling natural resources - or I should say runaway exploitation of natural resources, global economic instability, etc

I see nothing that will change the present course. At one of the most critical points in history, where we ALL need to come together to survive - we have rampant corruption, selfishness, lack of meaning, etc.

Technology / tech won't save us - they're too busy diddling with dot com IPO etc and/or the latest AI holy grail.

…..super rightwing judicial appointments all through the federal system will still be with us. It's been a coup.

The damage done already, in less than two years, is staggering. McConnell recently bragged that he's making "generational changes" to the judiciary. If the dems don't recapture control of at least on chamber of Congress in November, & the Senate would be ideal but less likely to happen, our institutions will be shredded by 2020.

Like everyone else is saying, the evidence is our democracy has failed. Fascism has won and they are now just clearing away the rubble that used to be our free society.

Still, every morning I get up with the belief that we are one election away from turning things around and restoring democracy and inspiration. My kids ask me if I plan to vote for secession. I say no. Even if I were the last Democrat in the world I would rather fight than leave or quit. It may be true our democracy has failed, but it's also true anything they tear down we can rebuild.

will still not have been charged for their crimes against humanity. We live in a fucked up country.

if our country is still F'd up like it is now, i will totally support a split. I don't want to live with nazis and confederates any more. They are way too stupid and making me dumber just listening to them. I'll move to the northern utopia and let the dipshits have their all white, alt right, nationalist, libertarian idiocracy.

and the unparalleled dangers immediately ahead.

The middle third (and most populous section) of North America is simply too large to sustain a democracy. There's just too many differences between the regions to sustain the sense of fellowship among the citizens for us not to be pulled apart by demagogues