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We've moved into a new category...Treason (Original Post) SHRED Jul 2018 OP
It is treason dalton99a Jul 2018 #1
Glad to see someone use the T word Wellstone ruled Jul 2018 #2
Yes, been I've been saying it, elleng Jul 2018 #31
I join you in that. Have been for over a year now. triron Jul 2018 #40
TRE45ON alterfurz Jul 2018 #3
Nice! SHRED Jul 2018 #10
That's awesome. CrispyQ Jul 2018 #11
I love this MustLoveBeagles Jul 2018 #54
Superb!!! calimary Jul 2018 #118
Brilliant! FailureToCommunicate Jul 2018 #63
Out of chaos: ART VOX Jul 2018 #109
Perfect! lunatica Jul 2018 #111
Isn't treason a hangable offense? CTyankee Jul 2018 #4
Considering everyone who's died for this country SHRED Jul 2018 #5
With red neck ties. -nt CrispyQ Jul 2018 #6
White shirts and khaki pants also SHRED Jul 2018 #8
Better add several layers of Depends to catch all the excretions. erronis Jul 2018 #19
Nit-picky comment here. PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2018 #25
I do remember seeing some not-pleasant pictures (BW). And yes, video was an anachronism. erronis Jul 2018 #28
If you remember bdamomma Jul 2018 #76
That's a very old technique favored by medieval English kings. hedda_foil Jul 2018 #101
Hang him by his bone spurs. Bluepinky Jul 2018 #91
Perhaps capital. triron Jul 2018 #41
"Treason is to betray your country and go against the governing body whereas espionage RKP5637 Jul 2018 #7
It's very obvious SHRED Jul 2018 #9
Definitely at this stage, especially after yesterday. ... and the GOP pending attempt to RKP5637 Jul 2018 #12
Consider this - ooky Jul 2018 #18
It's incredible!!! I'm really wondering if Trump IS a russian operative with something up RKP5637 Jul 2018 #26
It's certainly collusion and conspiracy, and treason would be likely FakeNoose Jul 2018 #33
Liberte, egalite, fraternite Moostache Jul 2018 #39
I have been in favor of the guillotine for the orange one and his co-conspirators mnhtnbb Jul 2018 #58
Me too...I even googled it BigmanPigman Jul 2018 #72
People need to call them and insist on it. triron Jul 2018 #42
Exactly. ooky Jul 2018 #49
Even if Trump is urged to demand their extradition... Saguaro Jul 2018 #62
I would not be surprised if he tried that, but ooky Jul 2018 #68
The positive outcome of this scenario would be to finally pit him against Congress Saguaro Jul 2018 #71
It's "Espionage", not Treason The Mouth Jul 2018 #113
Treason is very narrowly defined. The Mouth Jul 2018 #112
Yes, I think espionage is a better fit! n/t RKP5637 Jul 2018 #114
I always wish people would read the Constitution. former9thward Jul 2018 #13
So Lawrence Tribe hasn't read the Constitution? Kingofalldems Jul 2018 #43
If Tribe doesn't know the definition of "war" in the Constitution sad for him. former9thward Jul 2018 #48
It's a new age. War is not just dropping bombs and firing weapons. brush Jul 2018 #56
Then change the Constitution. former9thward Jul 2018 #60
The Russian military attacked the US election system with warfare... brush Jul 2018 #82
Nope, but you made me check. TomSlick Jul 2018 #70
Your personal defintion is not a Constitutional definition. former9thward Jul 2018 #84
We could (maybe should) declare war and take out their comms and electricity non-militarily. greyl Jul 2018 #86
LOL former9thward Jul 2018 #87
The topic is treason and the definition of war. Are you intentionally missing the point? greyl Jul 2018 #88
I have addressed those topics. former9thward Jul 2018 #89
Okay, okay, you're bailing out on this sub-thread, I get it. nt greyl Jul 2018 #90
Such an attack would be disproportionate and both unwise. TomSlick Jul 2018 #94
It's "Espionage", not Treason The Mouth Jul 2018 #115
Perhaps. I will allow there is a risk to enlarging the definition of treason. TomSlick Jul 2018 #116
Exactly. The Mouth Jul 2018 #117
Aaon Burr was tried for treason Progressive dog Jul 2018 #107
I give you much credit for going against the current. Pacifist Patriot Jul 2018 #47
I have read the Constitution. TomSlick Jul 2018 #50
+1 Ponietz Jul 2018 #53
Treason does not require a state of war dansolo Jul 2018 #59
To quibble only a little. TomSlick Jul 2018 #65
Exactly ChazInAz Jul 2018 #99
To clarify: we are in a cyber war onetexan Jul 2018 #103
We are at war with the Russians? former9thward Jul 2018 #61
The last declaration of war by Congress was in WWII. TomSlick Jul 2018 #66
The Constitution is quite specific on what "war" is. former9thward Jul 2018 #83
Citation please? TomSlick Jul 2018 #92
And you would lose the case. former9thward Jul 2018 #106
Tom, I think we're in uncharted territory regarding cyber attacks. KY_EnviroGuy Jul 2018 #105
I suggest YOU go back and read the Constitution. Haggis for Breakfast Jul 2018 #78
What does your copy say? former9thward Jul 2018 #85
When our current dollar is worth ten cents it will be too late for us to act. lpbk2713 Jul 2018 #14
It's Always Been Treason-We've Been Tiptoe Around That Fact Since the Beginning dlk Jul 2018 #15
Nicole Wallace has gone there. triron Jul 2018 #44
Yes, yes, yes, the constitutional purists continue to correct our def'n of treason Mr. Ected Jul 2018 #16
it's been treason and in the open AlexSFCA Jul 2018 #17
that word has applied since Comey. n/t Brainstormy Jul 2018 #20
Stick a fork in him. sandensea Jul 2018 #21
I cannot stand to hear "Russian meddling" in our elections pandr32 Jul 2018 #22
Exactly! TomSlick Jul 2018 #67
You are correct pandr32 Jul 2018 #93
The Light At The End Of The Tunnel DallasNE Jul 2018 #23
It's been hinted about for weeks if not months bucolic_frolic Jul 2018 #24
Very interesting. And with these high-level personnel supplying information erronis Jul 2018 #30
I've wondered about that for months bucolic_frolic Jul 2018 #34
Yes I've read James Clapper's book this spring FakeNoose Jul 2018 #36
Thanks for the reminder, I do want to read it bucolic_frolic Jul 2018 #37
Because not only does he (and Hayden and Nance) Haggis for Breakfast Jul 2018 #79
and repug officials/congressmen/women are complicit, ALSO traitors. elleng Jul 2018 #27
If its good enough for Mussolini... world wide wally Jul 2018 #29
We've moved into accepting the fact that it is treason WhiteTara Jul 2018 #32
Words get new definitions all the time SCVDem Jul 2018 #35
From this point forward blue-wave Jul 2018 #38
Giving aid and comfort to our enemies plus BarbD Jul 2018 #45
String him up! CTyankee Jul 2018 #46
A few months back I read this in the Daily Beast, its time to read it again... FM123 Jul 2018 #51
War must be declared by Congress. Eyeball_Kid Jul 2018 #57
Did Congress declare war on Sadam Hussein ? Haggis for Breakfast Jul 2018 #80
K&R! R B Garr Jul 2018 #52
We executed the Rosenbergs for colluding with Russia -- just sayin' OMGWTF Jul 2018 #55
They were charged with espionage, not treason. OliverQ Jul 2018 #69
No we didn't AncientGeezer Jul 2018 #75
Exactly what we've been Saying!!! Cha Jul 2018 #64
De nada SHRED Jul 2018 #73
Yes, It is treason, not "#Collusion, #conspire, and #traitor" AND they did not influence the Amaryllis Jul 2018 #74
We here bdamomma Jul 2018 #77
The sooner Wikileaks is cast into the fiery pit from hell from which it came, the better!!! Initech Jul 2018 #81
I've ALWAYS said this was treason. PatrickforO Jul 2018 #95
FYI. The Aggressive Progressive on FB has your tweet. It just showed up Autumn Jul 2018 #96
Ok I'll check it out SHRED Jul 2018 #97
That viewpoint might easily backfire. ANY cooperation? Treason? Petrushka Jul 2018 #98
It seems Mueller takes his Ralph Waldo Emerson seriously. hedda_foil Jul 2018 #100
"Deptuty Attorney General Rod Rsenstein said he has no evidence . . . Petrushka Jul 2018 #102
Been calling it treason for quite a while... N_E_1 for Tennis Jul 2018 #104
Until I read your post and some of the comments, Progressive dog Jul 2018 #108
This is how war is waged now. There's no messy clean-up involved. VOX Jul 2018 #110
 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
2. Glad to see someone use the T word
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:15 PM
Jul 2018

to finally describe what was happening two years ago this month. Thank you thank you.

triron

(21,880 posts)
40. I join you in that. Have been for over a year now.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:51 PM
Jul 2018

So have some others here on DU. There were a lot of deniers back then.

erronis

(14,853 posts)
19. Better add several layers of Depends to catch all the excretions.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:32 PM
Jul 2018

Gross.

When Mussolini "got his" I don't think it was video-taped. There'll be millions of video/cell-phone/drone recorders watching its last twitches. One for history.

Question is, should we start with the lower-ranking traitors and slowly work our way up, or get the orange one first? How can we convince pute and his oligarchs to come to the beautiful semi-submerged Mer-de-largo for an all expenses holiday? Paid for with glee by the US taxpayers.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,684 posts)
25. Nit-picky comment here.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:59 PM
Jul 2018

In 1945 video tape didn't exist. It might possibly have been filmed, but no doubt we'd have seen that film by now. His body, along with that of his mistress, was photographed, and the photos were widely disseminated. I'm thinking they may have been published in Life Magazine at the time, but I'm not entirely sure.

erronis

(14,853 posts)
28. I do remember seeing some not-pleasant pictures (BW). And yes, video was an anachronism.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:11 PM
Jul 2018

It's going to be hard for the next several generations to keep all the media types in order based on availability. I think a lot of them don't have the "special encoding bytes" at the start of their files such as sand/cave drawings, Daguerreotypes, ...

You know what I like about DU is that there are so many really intelligent people here (well, xcept the bots/etc.) that care about the messages.

bdamomma

(63,562 posts)
76. If you remember
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:32 PM
Jul 2018

the movie Gangs of New York, they would chop of their heads and display on pikes for all to see.

RKP5637

(67,008 posts)
7. "Treason is to betray your country and go against the governing body whereas espionage
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:32 PM
Jul 2018

is spying or using spies, normally in order to get political or military information." (from Quora definition source)

I think we've got both going on, at least one for sure. Including a coup.

RKP5637

(67,008 posts)
12. Definitely at this stage, especially after yesterday. ... and the GOP pending attempt to
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:36 PM
Jul 2018

impeach Rosenstein. It might as well be on billboards by now.

ooky

(8,867 posts)
18. Consider this -
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:03 PM
Jul 2018

- 12 Russian military officers just indicted for cyber espionage against the United States.

- United States President goes to see Russian leader who gave those officers their orders, 3 days later.

- U.S. President ignores the indictments, says nothing, does nothing, effectively aiding and abetting the Russian leader who attacked the United States.

What definition of treason would not fit that scenario?

Dems in Congress need to be all over this come Monday.



RKP5637

(67,008 posts)
26. It's incredible!!! I'm really wondering if Trump IS a russian operative with something up
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:03 PM
Jul 2018

his sleeve. Putin, will totally use Trump against America and Trump will be clueless ... or is in on the deal.

FakeNoose

(32,202 posts)
33. It's certainly collusion and conspiracy, and treason would be likely
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:20 PM
Jul 2018

Get the firing squad ready. Or maybe we can borrow France's guillotine.





mnhtnbb

(31,302 posts)
58. I have been in favor of the guillotine for the orange one and his co-conspirators
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 05:54 PM
Jul 2018

for a long time.

triron

(21,880 posts)
42. People need to call them and insist on it.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:53 PM
Jul 2018

I told my US senators office over a year ago that a traitor was in the WH.

ooky

(8,867 posts)
49. Exactly.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 03:47 PM
Jul 2018

And Congress should be insisting, right now, at minimum, that during that meeting the President demands the extradition of those 12 Russian military officers,

plus, the President and Congress take measured disciplinary response actions against the Russian government.

If those things don't happen it is solid evidence that something has gone seriously wrong with this government. At which point all American patriots rise up and take to the streets.

 

Saguaro

(79 posts)
62. Even if Trump is urged to demand their extradition...
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 06:45 PM
Jul 2018

... he'll come back and say "But Vlad said they didn't do it. And I believe him!"

ooky

(8,867 posts)
68. I would not be surprised if he tried that, but
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:03 PM
Jul 2018

the 12 indictments make that more problematic now for Congress to just accept that. Past that point I won't make any predictions what will happen next, but it could be an explosive situation.

 

Saguaro

(79 posts)
71. The positive outcome of this scenario would be to finally pit him against Congress
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:14 PM
Jul 2018

What will it take for the GOP to say "That's a line I won't cross"? Will it be this? How many of their constituents will be OK with opening our doors (or the Baltic doors) to Russia?

I remember a time when Russian interference in American affairs and collegial Presidential collaboration with Vladimir Putin would have been frowned upon. And that was just three years ago.

The Mouth

(3,118 posts)
112. Treason is very narrowly defined.
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:52 AM
Jul 2018

In fact it has been literally impossible to commit since 1945, as it requires a declaration of war.

Even the Rosenbergs were not convicted of treason, and the I've gotten into near fights with 'nam vets when I pointed out that waht Jane Fonda did was not treason. ONLY with a declaration of war can a person be guilty of it.

Treason is *NOT* merely something that harms the country. It was very narrowly defined in the Constitution because the writers of same had seen the word used to describe any enemy of the state.

I't is entirely possible that espionage has been committed and is being committed, still a capital offense. Sorry to piss on everyone's parade

former9thward

(31,684 posts)
13. I always wish people would read the Constitution.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:37 PM
Jul 2018

It defines treason. Nothing that happened with Russia is treason. Go argue with the Constitution.

former9thward

(31,684 posts)
48. If Tribe doesn't know the definition of "war" in the Constitution sad for him.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 03:38 PM
Jul 2018

Its in the Constitution also. And from his tweet, he doesn't. "War" or not? Hmmm.. What a concise legal opinion....

brush

(53,331 posts)
56. It's a new age. War is not just dropping bombs and firing weapons.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 05:20 PM
Jul 2018

Cyberwar is a thing and the Russian military engaged in it against our election process.

That's what the indictments were about.

If Americans worked with them that is clearly treason.

Hell, trump even begged for Russia to help on national TV.

brush

(53,331 posts)
82. The Russian military attacked the US election system with warfare...
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:19 PM
Jul 2018

cyber warfare, sure seems to fall within what the Constitution defines as treason. See post #50 for a more comprehensive definition of how the attack constitutes an act of war.

TomSlick

(11,013 posts)
70. Nope, but you made me check.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:09 PM
Jul 2018

There is no definition of the word "war" in the Constitution. The Constitution gives the Congress the power to declare war but it does not require a declaration of war for a state of war to exist.

As a matter of interpretation, in the absence of a definition, words are given their usual meaning. There is no question the Russian attack is not an "international armed conflict" within the meaning of the Geneva Convention. However, both the Constitution and the Geneva Convention predate the advent of cyber warfare. A reasonable definition of war today must include a cyber attack. If Russia conducts a cyber attack that cause US nuclear power plants to melt-down killing hundreds of Americans, that would surely be an act of war. A Russian cyber attack on US elections is no less an act of war.

The Russian military attacked us. Sure, no ordinance was expended but it was a military attack nevertheless. If the military of one country attacks another, it is an act of war.

former9thward

(31,684 posts)
84. Your personal defintion is not a Constitutional definition.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:28 PM
Jul 2018

War is only declared by Congress. Period. So since you think the Russian attack is no less "an act of war" that would kill "hundreds of Americans" then should we attack Russia militarily? Missiles? If not, why not?

greyl

(22,990 posts)
86. We could (maybe should) declare war and take out their comms and electricity non-militarily.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:33 PM
Jul 2018

Would you not consider that an act of war?

former9thward

(31,684 posts)
87. LOL
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:36 PM
Jul 2018

And you think Russia would not react "non-militarily" So you are willing to have scores of millions of Americans die. OK, know where you are coming from.

greyl

(22,990 posts)
88. The topic is treason and the definition of war. Are you intentionally missing the point?
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:38 PM
Jul 2018

Edit: Or, maybe you're admitting that there could be such a thing as a non-armed forces act of war.

former9thward

(31,684 posts)
89. I have addressed those topics.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:43 PM
Jul 2018

Others have not addressed the inconvenient truths that arise from their positions.

TomSlick

(11,013 posts)
94. Such an attack would be disproportionate and both unwise.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:19 PM
Jul 2018

A proportionate attack would be a cyber attack - say one grabbing the bank accounts of some of Putin's favorite oligarchs.

The Mouth

(3,118 posts)
115. It's "Espionage", not Treason
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:01 PM
Jul 2018

and if so, it's still a hanging offense.

All due respect, but we have a perfectly good work in Espionage', no need to broaden something else.

TomSlick

(11,013 posts)
116. Perhaps. I will allow there is a risk to enlarging the definition of treason.
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:25 PM
Jul 2018

I have found no authority that answers the question whether a declaration of war is an essential element for a treason charge. It might be better to leave the question unanswered. The law of unintended consequence has to be considered.

The necessary goal can be reached under the conspiracy and espionage laws. I'm not interested in seeing a capital sentence, I remain opposed to capital punishment. However, seeing a handful of Trump campaign officials in prison for a decade or two would seem to me to be justice.

The Mouth

(3,118 posts)
117. Exactly.
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 05:55 PM
Jul 2018

The offenses are already covered.

Enlarging the definition of 'Treason' is dangerous; as soon as it becomes 'something I /We think is wrong' a dangerous door is opened. The people who wrote the constitution, for all their faults, were aware that having the King or the Parliament define 'treason' however they would was not the way to proceed, and wrote a very narrow and specific definition. Words have meanings. They fried the Rosenbergs just fine with merely 'espionage'.



Progressive dog

(6,854 posts)
107. Aaon Burr was tried for treason
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 09:18 AM
Jul 2018

when he conspired with the Spanish (the Spanish were not at war with the USA) to steal part of the Louisiana purchase for a new country.
from Wikipedia "Trial. Burr was charged with treason because of the alleged conspiracy and stood trial in Richmond, Virginia. He was acquitted due to lack of evidence of treason, as Chief Justice Marshall did not consider conspiracy without actions sufficient for conviction."
The Russians, like the Spanish, could levy war against the US without the US declaring war against the Russians.
Unlike in Burr's case, the Russians did levy war against us.
If Trump and his allies participated in the Russian scheme, they could be charged with treason.

Pacifist Patriot

(24,647 posts)
47. I give you much credit for going against the current.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 03:18 PM
Jul 2018

I agree with you. The actions are traitorous in a colloquial sense, but prosecutable treason is a completely different thing.

I consider the entire GOP treasonous at this point, but it doesn't mean a thing in the legal sense.

TomSlick

(11,013 posts)
50. I have read the Constitution.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 04:49 PM
Jul 2018

I long ago swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Before that, I studied the Constitution, and constitutional law and took the attorney's oath to support the Constitution.

Here is what the Constitution says:

Article III, Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Russian military engaged in a cyber attack on the United States. The paradigm has changed. Wars no longer necessary involve the expenditure of ordinance or the killing of soldiers. Wars can be conducted over the Internet. The US military recognized the change in 2009 when US Cyber Command was created. The Russian attack was an act of war. Any US citizen that aided in that attack gave "aid and comfort" to the enemies of the United States in levying war against the United States. By the Constitutional definition, it was treason.

The Russian attack has not stopped. Anyone who is assisting the Russian attack by attempting to stop the investigation of the attack or deflect attention from the real and present danger is also guilty of treason.

The United States is under attack. The attack cannot be defended against until we admit it is occurring.



dansolo

(5,376 posts)
59. Treason does not require a state of war
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 06:12 PM
Jul 2018

You actually misquoted the constitution in your explanation. The important part is "or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort". The "or" is textually important. That means that the first part of the clause (in levying war against them) is not required. There may be a debate as to what defines someone as an enemy, but being technically at war is not a prerequisite for treason.

TomSlick

(11,013 posts)
65. To quibble only a little.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:52 PM
Jul 2018

Please recheck my quote. The "or in adhering to their enemies" language is there.

I contend that a state of war is an essential element of the offense. What I'm saying is that we are at war, or at least Russia is at war with us. We are doing nothing to defend ourselves, much less strike back.

I see nothing in the Constitution requiring a declaration of war for a treason charge. If that was the case, it would not be treason to lower US defense before an attack.

ChazInAz

(2,528 posts)
99. Exactly
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:20 AM
Jul 2018

Just put a sea lion on "Full Ignore" who was parsing this ludicrously, claiming to be a constitutional lawyer.

onetexan

(12,971 posts)
103. To clarify: we are in a cyber war
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 04:29 AM
Jul 2018

Which is unchartered territory and yet to be determined whether cyber aggression is an actual war. If regarded from the perspective it's caused great harm to do our democracy then yes, technically we are at war, provoked by the soviets.

former9thward

(31,684 posts)
61. We are at war with the Russians?
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 06:45 PM
Jul 2018

The Constitution says wars are declared by Congress. Why didn't Obama ask for a declaration of war?

TomSlick

(11,013 posts)
66. The last declaration of war by Congress was in WWII.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:54 PM
Jul 2018

There is little question that we have been engaged in multiple wars since then.

Whether or not we are "at war" with the Russians, there is no question Russia is at war with us.

former9thward

(31,684 posts)
83. The Constitution is quite specific on what "war" is.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:23 PM
Jul 2018

The U.S. has to declare it. Without that there is no treason. BTW if Russia is at war why are they sending our astronauts into space? Seems weird that a country at war accepts hitchhikers of the other country onto its spacecraft.

TomSlick

(11,013 posts)
92. Citation please?
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:06 PM
Jul 2018

The Constitution provides that Congress has the authority to declare war but it neither defines "war" nor provides that if the US is attacked by a foreign country we are not "at war."

I have found no authority for the proposition that a declaration of war is necessary for a state of war to exist as an element of treason. In Montoya v. United States, 180 U.S. 261 (1901), the Court recognized that while a declaration of war is necessary for the initiation of a "solemn war," a "state of war" can exist without such a declaration of war.

It seems incredible to me that if a US citizen disabled NORAD in preparation for a Russian missile attack, it would be an act of treason. It seems at least likely that if a US citizen cooperated with the Russian military in a cyber attack, it would equally be treason.

If I was prosecuting such a person, I would charge treason and the underlying conspiracy. I would then allow the defendant to plead to the conspiracy to avoid a capital sentence.

former9thward

(31,684 posts)
106. And you would lose the case.
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 08:45 AM
Jul 2018

The citation is the Constitution and its definition of treason.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
U.S. Constitution - Article 3 Section 3

Notice the mention of "War"? Now if you are going to say Russia is an "Enemy" of the U.S. how is it that this "enemy" takes our hitchhiking astronauts into space? How is it that we have, and continue to have all sorts of agreements with Russia and many other matters. That is not what "enemies" do. How is it that we have embassies in each other's countries? We don't have embassies in N. Korea or Iran.

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,480 posts)
105. Tom, I think we're in uncharted territory regarding cyber attacks.
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 08:34 AM
Jul 2018

The world had not yet witnessed a massive cyber attacked that could bring a nation to its knees overnight, and I have no doubt Russia and possibly other international players have that capability. Some nations have even claimed to have an internet "kill switch" to prevent a massive external attack, but the effectiveness of that is dubious.

Just like with nuclear weapons as a deterrent, those players know we can counter-attack and bring them down with us - and I doubt if anyone wants that to happen. But, just as with nuclear, there's always the possibility of rogue players in the mix.

There's also the point that defenses against cyber attacks are a mix of private and government semi-protections - somewhat different from military defenses and deterrents.

So relatively, we might say that we're now in a cyber cold war and heaven forbid if we're ever in a "hot' one. That event could also escalate into a full-blown conventional military conflict.

Wouldn't it be wise for Congress to pass some legislation that clarifies what constitutes war in the non-traditional sense? I think lines must be drawn to prevent abuse of treason claims - perhaps by the USSC - so that in the case of a fascist, totalitarian administration (like Trump would prefer), that massive numbers of people could not be charged with treason from dubious or fabricated digital evidence.

.................

lpbk2713

(42,674 posts)
14. When our current dollar is worth ten cents it will be too late for us to act.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:41 PM
Jul 2018



We will go out with a whimper because our economic system will be fubar.

Kruschev will have been proven correct ... "We will destroy you from within" .


dlk

(11,378 posts)
15. It's Always Been Treason-We've Been Tiptoe Around That Fact Since the Beginning
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:45 PM
Jul 2018

Would everyone have been using the same kid gloves if it were a Democrat?

Mr. Ected

(9,670 posts)
16. Yes, yes, yes, the constitutional purists continue to correct our def'n of treason
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:53 PM
Jul 2018

And at the end of the day, their interpretation will probably prevail -diffusing what SHOULD be considered treason under modern-day applications of warfare by clinging to the precedents of the past. It's a shame, actually. There should be a reckoning of the most gravitous manner, to warn off future fascist wannabes and to conform the penalty to the crimes.

If Trump and his minions would hang, the turmoil that would ensue may destroy us forever. But NOT applying the strongest of penalties, we can be ASSURED that this will happen again and again in the USA, because that 35-40% tea party element exists and will always exist within.

pandr32

(11,419 posts)
22. I cannot stand to hear "Russian meddling" in our elections
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:43 PM
Jul 2018

It makes it sound so minor--it wasn't and isn't.

DallasNE

(7,390 posts)
23. The Light At The End Of The Tunnel
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:45 PM
Jul 2018

Has always been treason. But that light just got a whole lot closer and brighter.

bucolic_frolic

(42,478 posts)
24. It's been hinted about for weeks if not months
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:53 PM
Jul 2018







Back in 1950, the bombshell arrest of Julius & Ethel Rosenberg as traitors & Kremlin spies would have appeared troubling & out of absolutely nowhere -- a sinister FBI plot, even -- unless you were one of the very, very few Americans cleared for VENONA. Consider that a #HINT.

Sure are. Ditto with Hayden. They're both leaning forward, dropping easy-to-read hints of TS/SCI behind Mueller's green door. You know why? BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT'S COMING.

erronis

(14,853 posts)
30. Very interesting. And with these high-level personnel supplying information
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:16 PM
Jul 2018

I expect that the noose is going to replace the red tie.

Does our system of government support the mass implication and prosecution of all parties within congress and the executive branch? How about SCOTUS? Do we need to do a purge and reconciliation such as South Africa (for better or for worse?)

bucolic_frolic

(42,478 posts)
34. I've wondered about that for months
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:22 PM
Jul 2018

because of the rumors of deeply dispersed campaign cash from foreign sources.

What you ponder is a wholly adequate, complete, and neatly bow-tied answer to election thievery. To wit, a government that has flipped majorities due to empty seats because of dozens in the slammer. Could it happen? Who knows.

FakeNoose

(32,202 posts)
36. Yes I've read James Clapper's book this spring
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:26 PM
Jul 2018

He does drop hints but he doesn't tip his hand. How does that guy sleep at night, with everything he knows?

Haggis for Breakfast

(6,831 posts)
79. Because not only does he (and Hayden and Nance)
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:01 PM
Jul 2018

know what's coming, they also know how this will be finally resolved.

 

SCVDem

(5,103 posts)
35. Words get new definitions all the time
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:22 PM
Jul 2018

Since current use and understanding of the word includes:

Any act which is meant to undermine and subvert American governmental process and function for personal or politcal gain will be an act of treason.

The addition of cold and cyber to warfare is the reason for this change.

Declared shooting wars haven't happened since WWII.

BarbD

(1,190 posts)
45. Giving aid and comfort to our enemies plus
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:58 PM
Jul 2018

threatening our national security. That's treason in my book.

FM123

(10,042 posts)
51. A few months back I read this in the Daily Beast, its time to read it again...
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 04:56 PM
Jul 2018

"Under the Constitution an individual commits treason if the nation is at war and the person provides aid and comfort to the enemy. This is an impeachable offense, committed by word or deed. It's one that individuals need to start grappling with seriously because it is not some far-fetched liberal fantasy to conclude that Donald Trump may have committed treason. In fact, the case is fairly simple to make."


https://www.thedailybeast.com/its-not-a-liberal-fantasy-to-ask-if-trump-committed-treason

Eyeball_Kid

(7,398 posts)
57. War must be declared by Congress.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 05:22 PM
Jul 2018

The definition of treason does not apply.

Espionage? Yes. Along with various other crimes that I’m sure that Mueller will use to indict.

Haggis for Breakfast

(6,831 posts)
80. Did Congress declare war on Sadam Hussein ?
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:04 PM
Jul 2018

Or on Iraq ? Or on Afghanistan ? Or on Syria ?

Ask the DEAD American troops is that distinction matters at all.

Amaryllis

(9,523 posts)
74. Yes, It is treason, not "#Collusion, #conspire, and #traitor" AND they did not influence the
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:29 PM
Jul 2018

election, they STOLE it. So let's get past "influence" and call it what it is. Theft. Stealing. Through an attack that was indeed an act of war.

bdamomma

(63,562 posts)
77. We here
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:44 PM
Jul 2018

at DU are very well informed about the situation, but how many others out in the country know what the hell is being done???

Or are they completely oblivious of what is being said.

PatrickforO

(14,479 posts)
95. I've ALWAYS said this was treason.
Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:20 PM
Jul 2018

And McConnell, that slime, is in it up to his disgusting turtle nose hairs. Put him in the dock.

hedda_foil

(16,362 posts)
100. It seems Mueller takes his Ralph Waldo Emerson seriously.
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:45 AM
Jul 2018

quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson:,

“When you strike at a king you must kill him.”

Petrushka

(3,709 posts)
102. "Deptuty Attorney General Rod Rsenstein said he has no evidence . . .
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 02:26 AM
Jul 2018
. . . that the hacking changed the outcome of the 2016 election, nor that 'any American was a knowing participant in the alleged unlawful activity. '”



Full text of indictment available at the following link:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/read-muellers-full-indictment-against-12-russian-officers-for-election-interference

N_E_1 for Tennis

(9,550 posts)
104. Been calling it treason for quite a while...
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 08:15 AM
Jul 2018

but most didn’t realize that we were at war making treason easy to see. The argument against was that we were not at war, negating treason.

CyberWar is a real War and it is being waged against us now.

This is the little stuff that can happen wait till the infrastructure starts to be hacked. Anything digital attached to the internet is vulnerable. That includes the “Internet of things” which provides many doors to open.

It’s not a one way war. We are not only on the defense we have offense too, but we sustained a big broadside hit.

The media needs to wake up and report this for what it is. WAR.

Progressive dog

(6,854 posts)
108. Until I read your post and some of the comments,
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 09:33 AM
Jul 2018

I agreed that Treason required war. I have now changed my view. Aaron Burr was tried for treason.
from Wikipedia
"Trial. Burr was charged with treason because of the alleged conspiracy and stood trial in Richmond, Virginia. He was acquitted due to lack of evidence of treason, as Chief Justice Marshall did not consider conspiracy without actions sufficient for conviction."
The conspirators took lots of actions to elect Trump.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
110. This is how war is waged now. There's no messy clean-up involved.
Sun Jul 15, 2018, 09:39 AM
Jul 2018

Why blow shit up and leave a 99-year radioactive cloud, when you can topple democracies by getting into their citizen's heads and turn them against their own institutions and one another?

And it's done cheaply enough to allow for multiple arenas of conflict simultaneously. What's not for Putin to like here?

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