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Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:09 PM

 

We've moved into a new category...Treason


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Reply We've moved into a new category...Treason (Original post)
SHRED Jul 2018 OP
dalton99a Jul 2018 #1
Wellstone ruled Jul 2018 #2
elleng Jul 2018 #31
triron Jul 2018 #40
alterfurz Jul 2018 #3
SHRED Jul 2018 #10
CrispyQ Jul 2018 #11
MustLoveBeagles Jul 2018 #54
calimary Jul 2018 #118
FailureToCommunicate Jul 2018 #63
VOX Jul 2018 #109
lunatica Jul 2018 #111
CTyankee Jul 2018 #4
SHRED Jul 2018 #5
CrispyQ Jul 2018 #6
SHRED Jul 2018 #8
erronis Jul 2018 #19
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2018 #25
erronis Jul 2018 #28
bdamomma Jul 2018 #76
hedda_foil Jul 2018 #101
Bluepinky Jul 2018 #91
triron Jul 2018 #41
RKP5637 Jul 2018 #7
SHRED Jul 2018 #9
RKP5637 Jul 2018 #12
ooky Jul 2018 #18
RKP5637 Jul 2018 #26
FakeNoose Jul 2018 #33
Moostache Jul 2018 #39
mnhtnbb Jul 2018 #58
BigmanPigman Jul 2018 #72
triron Jul 2018 #42
ooky Jul 2018 #49
Saguaro Jul 2018 #62
ooky Jul 2018 #68
Saguaro Jul 2018 #71
The Mouth Jul 2018 #113
The Mouth Jul 2018 #112
RKP5637 Jul 2018 #114
former9thward Jul 2018 #13
Kingofalldems Jul 2018 #43
former9thward Jul 2018 #48
brush Jul 2018 #56
former9thward Jul 2018 #60
brush Jul 2018 #82
TomSlick Jul 2018 #70
former9thward Jul 2018 #84
greyl Jul 2018 #86
former9thward Jul 2018 #87
greyl Jul 2018 #88
former9thward Jul 2018 #89
greyl Jul 2018 #90
TomSlick Jul 2018 #94
The Mouth Jul 2018 #115
TomSlick Jul 2018 #116
The Mouth Jul 2018 #117
Progressive dog Jul 2018 #107
Pacifist Patriot Jul 2018 #47
TomSlick Jul 2018 #50
Ponietz Jul 2018 #53
dansolo Jul 2018 #59
TomSlick Jul 2018 #65
ChazInAz Jul 2018 #99
onetexan Jul 2018 #103
former9thward Jul 2018 #61
TomSlick Jul 2018 #66
former9thward Jul 2018 #83
TomSlick Jul 2018 #92
former9thward Jul 2018 #106
KY_EnviroGuy Jul 2018 #105
Haggis for Breakfast Jul 2018 #78
former9thward Jul 2018 #85
lpbk2713 Jul 2018 #14
dlk Jul 2018 #15
triron Jul 2018 #44
Mr. Ected Jul 2018 #16
AlexSFCA Jul 2018 #17
Brainstormy Jul 2018 #20
sandensea Jul 2018 #21
pandr32 Jul 2018 #22
TomSlick Jul 2018 #67
pandr32 Jul 2018 #93
DallasNE Jul 2018 #23
bucolic_frolic Jul 2018 #24
erronis Jul 2018 #30
bucolic_frolic Jul 2018 #34
FakeNoose Jul 2018 #36
bucolic_frolic Jul 2018 #37
Haggis for Breakfast Jul 2018 #79
elleng Jul 2018 #27
world wide wally Jul 2018 #29
WhiteTara Jul 2018 #32
SCVDem Jul 2018 #35
blue-wave Jul 2018 #38
BarbD Jul 2018 #45
CTyankee Jul 2018 #46
FM123 Jul 2018 #51
Eyeball_Kid Jul 2018 #57
Haggis for Breakfast Jul 2018 #80
R B Garr Jul 2018 #52
OMGWTF Jul 2018 #55
OliverQ Jul 2018 #69
AncientGeezer Jul 2018 #75
Cha Jul 2018 #64
SHRED Jul 2018 #73
Amaryllis Jul 2018 #74
bdamomma Jul 2018 #77
Initech Jul 2018 #81
PatrickforO Jul 2018 #95
Autumn Jul 2018 #96
SHRED Jul 2018 #97
Petrushka Jul 2018 #98
hedda_foil Jul 2018 #100
Petrushka Jul 2018 #102
N_E_1 for Tennis Jul 2018 #104
Progressive dog Jul 2018 #108
VOX Jul 2018 #110

Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:13 PM

1. It is treason

It was a treasonous plan involving the entire GOP hierarchy.

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:15 PM

2. Glad to see someone use the T word

to finally describe what was happening two years ago this month. Thank you thank you.

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Response to dalton99a (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:16 PM

31. Yes, been I've been saying it,

and Dem party should do so too.

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Response to elleng (Reply #31)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:51 PM

40. I join you in that. Have been for over a year now.

So have some others here on DU. There were a lot of deniers back then.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:25 PM

3. TRE45ON

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Response to alterfurz (Reply #3)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:33 PM

10. Nice!

 

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Response to alterfurz (Reply #3)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:33 PM

11. That's awesome.

I got this tee. Got a from two people the first time I wore it.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #11)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 05:00 PM

54. I love this

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #11)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 07:22 PM

118. Superb!!!

That’s just flat out terrific!!!

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Response to alterfurz (Reply #3)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 07:18 PM

63. Brilliant!

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Response to alterfurz (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 09:33 AM

109. Out of chaos: ART

Fucking brilliant.

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Response to alterfurz (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:11 AM

111. Perfect!

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:26 PM

4. Isn't treason a hangable offense?

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #4)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:29 PM

5. Considering everyone who's died for this country

 


I'd favor public hangings.

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Response to SHRED (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:31 PM

6. With red neck ties. -nt

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #6)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:32 PM

8. White shirts and khaki pants also

 

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Response to SHRED (Reply #8)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:32 PM

19. Better add several layers of Depends to catch all the excretions.

Gross.

When Mussolini "got his" I don't think it was video-taped. There'll be millions of video/cell-phone/drone recorders watching its last twitches. One for history.

Question is, should we start with the lower-ranking traitors and slowly work our way up, or get the orange one first? How can we convince pute and his oligarchs to come to the beautiful semi-submerged Mer-de-largo for an all expenses holiday? Paid for with glee by the US taxpayers.

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Response to erronis (Reply #19)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:59 PM

25. Nit-picky comment here.

In 1945 video tape didn't exist. It might possibly have been filmed, but no doubt we'd have seen that film by now. His body, along with that of his mistress, was photographed, and the photos were widely disseminated. I'm thinking they may have been published in Life Magazine at the time, but I'm not entirely sure.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #25)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:11 PM

28. I do remember seeing some not-pleasant pictures (BW). And yes, video was an anachronism.

It's going to be hard for the next several generations to keep all the media types in order based on availability. I think a lot of them don't have the "special encoding bytes" at the start of their files such as sand/cave drawings, Daguerreotypes, ...

You know what I like about DU is that there are so many really intelligent people here (well, xcept the bots/etc.) that care about the messages.

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Response to SHRED (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:32 PM

76. If you remember

the movie Gangs of New York, they would chop of their heads and display on pikes for all to see.

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Response to bdamomma (Reply #76)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:48 AM

101. That's a very old technique favored by medieval English kings.

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Response to SHRED (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:00 PM

91. Hang him by his bone spurs.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #4)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:51 PM

41. Perhaps capital.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:32 PM

7. "Treason is to betray your country and go against the governing body whereas espionage

is spying or using spies, normally in order to get political or military information." (from Quora definition source)

I think we've got both going on, at least one for sure. Including a coup.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:33 PM

9. It's very obvious

 

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Response to SHRED (Reply #9)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:36 PM

12. Definitely at this stage, especially after yesterday. ... and the GOP pending attempt to

impeach Rosenstein. It might as well be on billboards by now.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:03 PM

18. Consider this -

- 12 Russian military officers just indicted for cyber espionage against the United States.

- United States President goes to see Russian leader who gave those officers their orders, 3 days later.

- U.S. President ignores the indictments, says nothing, does nothing, effectively aiding and abetting the Russian leader who attacked the United States.

What definition of treason would not fit that scenario?

Dems in Congress need to be all over this come Monday.



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Response to ooky (Reply #18)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:03 PM

26. It's incredible!!! I'm really wondering if Trump IS a russian operative with something up

his sleeve. Putin, will totally use Trump against America and Trump will be clueless ... or is in on the deal.

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Response to ooky (Reply #18)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:20 PM

33. It's certainly collusion and conspiracy, and treason would be likely

Get the firing squad ready. Or maybe we can borrow France's guillotine.





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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #33)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:48 PM

39. Liberte, egalite, fraternite

Viva Le France!!!

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #33)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 05:54 PM

58. I have been in favor of the guillotine for the orange one and his co-conspirators

for a long time.

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Response to mnhtnbb (Reply #58)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:15 PM

72. Me too...I even googled it

to see if they still make them.

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Response to ooky (Reply #18)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:53 PM

42. People need to call them and insist on it.

I told my US senators office over a year ago that a traitor was in the WH.

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Response to triron (Reply #42)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 03:47 PM

49. Exactly.

And Congress should be insisting, right now, at minimum, that during that meeting the President demands the extradition of those 12 Russian military officers,

plus, the President and Congress take measured disciplinary response actions against the Russian government.

If those things don't happen it is solid evidence that something has gone seriously wrong with this government. At which point all American patriots rise up and take to the streets.

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Response to ooky (Reply #49)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 06:45 PM

62. Even if Trump is urged to demand their extradition...

 

... he'll come back and say "But Vlad said they didn't do it. And I believe him!"

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Response to Saguaro (Reply #62)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:03 PM

68. I would not be surprised if he tried that, but

the 12 indictments make that more problematic now for Congress to just accept that. Past that point I won't make any predictions what will happen next, but it could be an explosive situation.

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Response to ooky (Reply #68)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:14 PM

71. The positive outcome of this scenario would be to finally pit him against Congress

 

What will it take for the GOP to say "That's a line I won't cross"? Will it be this? How many of their constituents will be OK with opening our doors (or the Baltic doors) to Russia?

I remember a time when Russian interference in American affairs and collegial Presidential collaboration with Vladimir Putin would have been frowned upon. And that was just three years ago.

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Response to ooky (Reply #18)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:53 AM

113. It's "Espionage", not Treason

Unless and until there is a declaration of war against Russia.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #7)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:52 AM

112. Treason is very narrowly defined.

In fact it has been literally impossible to commit since 1945, as it requires a declaration of war.

Even the Rosenbergs were not convicted of treason, and the I've gotten into near fights with 'nam vets when I pointed out that waht Jane Fonda did was not treason. ONLY with a declaration of war can a person be guilty of it.

Treason is *NOT* merely something that harms the country. It was very narrowly defined in the Constitution because the writers of same had seen the word used to describe any enemy of the state.

I't is entirely possible that espionage has been committed and is being committed, still a capital offense. Sorry to piss on everyone's parade

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Response to The Mouth (Reply #112)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 11:55 AM

114. Yes, I think espionage is a better fit! n/t

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:37 PM

13. I always wish people would read the Constitution.

It defines treason. Nothing that happened with Russia is treason. Go argue with the Constitution.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:54 PM

43. So Lawrence Tribe hasn't read the Constitution?

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #43)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 03:38 PM

48. If Tribe doesn't know the definition of "war" in the Constitution sad for him.

Its in the Constitution also. And from his tweet, he doesn't. "War" or not? Hmmm.. What a concise legal opinion....

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Response to former9thward (Reply #48)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 05:20 PM

56. It's a new age. War is not just dropping bombs and firing weapons.

Cyberwar is a thing and the Russian military engaged in it against our election process.

That's what the indictments were about.

If Americans worked with them that is clearly treason.

Hell, trump even begged for Russia to help on national TV.

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Response to brush (Reply #56)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 06:41 PM

60. Then change the Constitution.

Because that is not what it says.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #60)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:19 PM

82. The Russian military attacked the US election system with warfare...

cyber warfare, sure seems to fall within what the Constitution defines as treason. See post #50 for a more comprehensive definition of how the attack constitutes an act of war.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #48)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:09 PM

70. Nope, but you made me check.

There is no definition of the word "war" in the Constitution. The Constitution gives the Congress the power to declare war but it does not require a declaration of war for a state of war to exist.

As a matter of interpretation, in the absence of a definition, words are given their usual meaning. There is no question the Russian attack is not an "international armed conflict" within the meaning of the Geneva Convention. However, both the Constitution and the Geneva Convention predate the advent of cyber warfare. A reasonable definition of war today must include a cyber attack. If Russia conducts a cyber attack that cause US nuclear power plants to melt-down killing hundreds of Americans, that would surely be an act of war. A Russian cyber attack on US elections is no less an act of war.

The Russian military attacked us. Sure, no ordinance was expended but it was a military attack nevertheless. If the military of one country attacks another, it is an act of war.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #70)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:28 PM

84. Your personal defintion is not a Constitutional definition.

War is only declared by Congress. Period. So since you think the Russian attack is no less "an act of war" that would kill "hundreds of Americans" then should we attack Russia militarily? Missiles? If not, why not?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #84)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:33 PM

86. We could (maybe should) declare war and take out their comms and electricity non-militarily.


Would you not consider that an act of war?

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Response to greyl (Reply #86)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:36 PM

87. LOL

And you think Russia would not react "non-militarily" So you are willing to have scores of millions of Americans die. OK, know where you are coming from.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #87)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:38 PM

88. The topic is treason and the definition of war. Are you intentionally missing the point?

Edit: Or, maybe you're admitting that there could be such a thing as a non-armed forces act of war.

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Response to greyl (Reply #88)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:43 PM

89. I have addressed those topics.

Others have not addressed the inconvenient truths that arise from their positions.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #89)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:45 PM

90. Okay, okay, you're bailing out on this sub-thread, I get it. nt

Last edited Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:22 AM - Edit history (1)

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Response to former9thward (Reply #84)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:19 PM

94. Such an attack would be disproportionate and both unwise.

A proportionate attack would be a cyber attack - say one grabbing the bank accounts of some of Putin's favorite oligarchs.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #70)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:01 PM

115. It's "Espionage", not Treason

and if so, it's still a hanging offense.

All due respect, but we have a perfectly good work in Espionage', no need to broaden something else.

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Response to The Mouth (Reply #115)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:25 PM

116. Perhaps. I will allow there is a risk to enlarging the definition of treason.

I have found no authority that answers the question whether a declaration of war is an essential element for a treason charge. It might be better to leave the question unanswered. The law of unintended consequence has to be considered.

The necessary goal can be reached under the conspiracy and espionage laws. I'm not interested in seeing a capital sentence, I remain opposed to capital punishment. However, seeing a handful of Trump campaign officials in prison for a decade or two would seem to me to be justice.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #116)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 05:55 PM

117. Exactly.

The offenses are already covered.

Enlarging the definition of 'Treason' is dangerous; as soon as it becomes 'something I /We think is wrong' a dangerous door is opened. The people who wrote the constitution, for all their faults, were aware that having the King or the Parliament define 'treason' however they would was not the way to proceed, and wrote a very narrow and specific definition. Words have meanings. They fried the Rosenbergs just fine with merely 'espionage'.



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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #43)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 09:18 AM

107. Aaon Burr was tried for treason

when he conspired with the Spanish (the Spanish were not at war with the USA) to steal part of the Louisiana purchase for a new country.
from Wikipedia "Trial. Burr was charged with treason because of the alleged conspiracy and stood trial in Richmond, Virginia. He was acquitted due to lack of evidence of treason, as Chief Justice Marshall did not consider conspiracy without actions sufficient for conviction."
The Russians, like the Spanish, could levy war against the US without the US declaring war against the Russians.
Unlike in Burr's case, the Russians did levy war against us.
If Trump and his allies participated in the Russian scheme, they could be charged with treason.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 03:18 PM

47. I give you much credit for going against the current.

I agree with you. The actions are traitorous in a colloquial sense, but prosecutable treason is a completely different thing.

I consider the entire GOP treasonous at this point, but it doesn't mean a thing in the legal sense.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 04:49 PM

50. I have read the Constitution.

I long ago swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Before that, I studied the Constitution, and constitutional law and took the attorney's oath to support the Constitution.

Here is what the Constitution says:

Article III, Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Russian military engaged in a cyber attack on the United States. The paradigm has changed. Wars no longer necessary involve the expenditure of ordinance or the killing of soldiers. Wars can be conducted over the Internet. The US military recognized the change in 2009 when US Cyber Command was created. The Russian attack was an act of war. Any US citizen that aided in that attack gave "aid and comfort" to the enemies of the United States in levying war against the United States. By the Constitutional definition, it was treason.

The Russian attack has not stopped. Anyone who is assisting the Russian attack by attempting to stop the investigation of the attack or deflect attention from the real and present danger is also guilty of treason.

The United States is under attack. The attack cannot be defended against until we admit it is occurring.



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Response to TomSlick (Reply #50)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 04:59 PM

53. +1

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #50)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 06:12 PM

59. Treason does not require a state of war

You actually misquoted the constitution in your explanation. The important part is "or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort". The "or" is textually important. That means that the first part of the clause (in levying war against them) is not required. There may be a debate as to what defines someone as an enemy, but being technically at war is not a prerequisite for treason.

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Response to dansolo (Reply #59)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:52 PM

65. To quibble only a little.

Please recheck my quote. The "or in adhering to their enemies" language is there.

I contend that a state of war is an essential element of the offense. What I'm saying is that we are at war, or at least Russia is at war with us. We are doing nothing to defend ourselves, much less strike back.

I see nothing in the Constitution requiring a declaration of war for a treason charge. If that was the case, it would not be treason to lower US defense before an attack.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #65)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:20 AM

99. Exactly

Just put a sea lion on "Full Ignore" who was parsing this ludicrously, claiming to be a constitutional lawyer.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #65)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 04:29 AM

103. To clarify: we are in a cyber war

Which is unchartered territory and yet to be determined whether cyber aggression is an actual war. If regarded from the perspective it's caused great harm to do our democracy then yes, technically we are at war, provoked by the soviets.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #50)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 06:45 PM

61. We are at war with the Russians?

The Constitution says wars are declared by Congress. Why didn't Obama ask for a declaration of war?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #61)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:54 PM

66. The last declaration of war by Congress was in WWII.

There is little question that we have been engaged in multiple wars since then.

Whether or not we are "at war" with the Russians, there is no question Russia is at war with us.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #66)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:23 PM

83. The Constitution is quite specific on what "war" is.

The U.S. has to declare it. Without that there is no treason. BTW if Russia is at war why are they sending our astronauts into space? Seems weird that a country at war accepts hitchhikers of the other country onto its spacecraft.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #83)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:06 PM

92. Citation please?

The Constitution provides that Congress has the authority to declare war but it neither defines "war" nor provides that if the US is attacked by a foreign country we are not "at war."

I have found no authority for the proposition that a declaration of war is necessary for a state of war to exist as an element of treason. In Montoya v. United States, 180 U.S. 261 (1901), the Court recognized that while a declaration of war is necessary for the initiation of a "solemn war," a "state of war" can exist without such a declaration of war.

It seems incredible to me that if a US citizen disabled NORAD in preparation for a Russian missile attack, it would be an act of treason. It seems at least likely that if a US citizen cooperated with the Russian military in a cyber attack, it would equally be treason.

If I was prosecuting such a person, I would charge treason and the underlying conspiracy. I would then allow the defendant to plead to the conspiracy to avoid a capital sentence.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #92)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 08:45 AM

106. And you would lose the case.

The citation is the Constitution and its definition of treason.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
U.S. Constitution - Article 3 Section 3

Notice the mention of "War"? Now if you are going to say Russia is an "Enemy" of the U.S. how is it that this "enemy" takes our hitchhiking astronauts into space? How is it that we have, and continue to have all sorts of agreements with Russia and many other matters. That is not what "enemies" do. How is it that we have embassies in each other's countries? We don't have embassies in N. Korea or Iran.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #50)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 08:34 AM

105. Tom, I think we're in uncharted territory regarding cyber attacks.

The world had not yet witnessed a massive cyber attacked that could bring a nation to its knees overnight, and I have no doubt Russia and possibly other international players have that capability. Some nations have even claimed to have an internet "kill switch" to prevent a massive external attack, but the effectiveness of that is dubious.

Just like with nuclear weapons as a deterrent, those players know we can counter-attack and bring them down with us - and I doubt if anyone wants that to happen. But, just as with nuclear, there's always the possibility of rogue players in the mix.

There's also the point that defenses against cyber attacks are a mix of private and government semi-protections - somewhat different from military defenses and deterrents.

So relatively, we might say that we're now in a cyber cold war and heaven forbid if we're ever in a "hot' one. That event could also escalate into a full-blown conventional military conflict.

Wouldn't it be wise for Congress to pass some legislation that clarifies what constitutes war in the non-traditional sense? I think lines must be drawn to prevent abuse of treason claims - perhaps by the USSC - so that in the case of a fascist, totalitarian administration (like Trump would prefer), that massive numbers of people could not be charged with treason from dubious or fabricated digital evidence.

.................

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Response to former9thward (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:57 PM

78. I suggest YOU go back and read the Constitution.

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Response to Haggis for Breakfast (Reply #78)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:30 PM

85. What does your copy say?

Did you black out the parts you didn't like?

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:41 PM

14. When our current dollar is worth ten cents it will be too late for us to act.




We will go out with a whimper because our economic system will be fubar.

Kruschev will have been proven correct ... "We will destroy you from within" .


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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:45 PM

15. It's Always Been Treason-We've Been Tiptoe Around That Fact Since the Beginning

Would everyone have been using the same kid gloves if it were a Democrat?

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Response to dlk (Reply #15)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:54 PM

44. Nicole Wallace has gone there.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:53 PM

16. Yes, yes, yes, the constitutional purists continue to correct our def'n of treason

And at the end of the day, their interpretation will probably prevail -diffusing what SHOULD be considered treason under modern-day applications of warfare by clinging to the precedents of the past. It's a shame, actually. There should be a reckoning of the most gravitous manner, to warn off future fascist wannabes and to conform the penalty to the crimes.

If Trump and his minions would hang, the turmoil that would ensue may destroy us forever. But NOT applying the strongest of penalties, we can be ASSURED that this will happen again and again in the USA, because that 35-40% tea party element exists and will always exist within.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 12:55 PM

17. it's been treason and in the open

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:38 PM

20. that word has applied since Comey. n/t

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:40 PM

21. Stick a fork in him.

He's been done since 2015 at least.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:43 PM

22. I cannot stand to hear "Russian meddling" in our elections

It makes it sound so minor--it wasn't and isn't.

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Response to pandr32 (Reply #22)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:56 PM

67. Exactly!

It isn't meddling, it is an attack.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #67)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:07 PM

93. You are correct

...and it's ongoing. It is an act of war.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:45 PM

23. The Light At The End Of The Tunnel

Has always been treason. But that light just got a whole lot closer and brighter.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 01:53 PM

24. It's been hinted about for weeks if not months








Back in 1950, the bombshell arrest of Julius & Ethel Rosenberg as traitors & Kremlin spies would have appeared troubling & out of absolutely nowhere -- a sinister FBI plot, even -- unless you were one of the very, very few Americans cleared for VENONA. Consider that a #HINT.

Sure are. Ditto with Hayden. They're both leaning forward, dropping easy-to-read hints of TS/SCI behind Mueller's green door. You know why? BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT'S COMING.

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Response to bucolic_frolic (Reply #24)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:16 PM

30. Very interesting. And with these high-level personnel supplying information

I expect that the noose is going to replace the red tie.

Does our system of government support the mass implication and prosecution of all parties within congress and the executive branch? How about SCOTUS? Do we need to do a purge and reconciliation such as South Africa (for better or for worse?)

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Response to erronis (Reply #30)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:22 PM

34. I've wondered about that for months

because of the rumors of deeply dispersed campaign cash from foreign sources.

What you ponder is a wholly adequate, complete, and neatly bow-tied answer to election thievery. To wit, a government that has flipped majorities due to empty seats because of dozens in the slammer. Could it happen? Who knows.

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Response to bucolic_frolic (Reply #24)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:26 PM

36. Yes I've read James Clapper's book this spring

He does drop hints but he doesn't tip his hand. How does that guy sleep at night, with everything he knows?

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #36)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:34 PM

37. Thanks for the reminder, I do want to read it

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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #36)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:01 PM

79. Because not only does he (and Hayden and Nance)

know what's coming, they also know how this will be finally resolved.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:05 PM

27. and repug officials/congressmen/women are complicit, ALSO traitors.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:13 PM

29. If its good enough for Mussolini...

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:19 PM

32. We've moved into accepting the fact that it is treason

It's been treason all along.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:22 PM

35. Words get new definitions all the time

 

Since current use and understanding of the word includes:

Any act which is meant to undermine and subvert American governmental process and function for personal or politcal gain will be an act of treason.

The addition of cold and cyber to warfare is the reason for this change.

Declared shooting wars haven't happened since WWII.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:40 PM

38. From this point forward

Every day every one of us should use this.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 02:58 PM

45. Giving aid and comfort to our enemies plus

threatening our national security. That's treason in my book.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 03:14 PM

46. String him up!

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 04:56 PM

51. A few months back I read this in the Daily Beast, its time to read it again...

"Under the Constitution an individual commits treason if the nation is at war and the person provides aid and comfort to the enemy. This is an impeachable offense, committed by word or deed. It's one that individuals need to start grappling with seriously because it is not some far-fetched liberal fantasy to conclude that Donald Trump may have committed treason. In fact, the case is fairly simple to make."


https://www.thedailybeast.com/its-not-a-liberal-fantasy-to-ask-if-trump-committed-treason

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Response to FM123 (Reply #51)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 05:22 PM

57. War must be declared by Congress.

The definition of treason does not apply.

Espionage? Yes. Along with various other crimes that I’m sure that Mueller will use to indict.

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Response to Eyeball_Kid (Reply #57)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:04 PM

80. Did Congress declare war on Sadam Hussein ?

Or on Iraq ? Or on Afghanistan ? Or on Syria ?

Ask the DEAD American troops is that distinction matters at all.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 04:58 PM

52. K&R!



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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 05:11 PM

55. We executed the Rosenbergs for colluding with Russia -- just sayin'

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Response to OMGWTF (Reply #55)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:08 PM

69. They were charged with espionage, not treason.

 

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Response to OMGWTF (Reply #55)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:31 PM

75. No we didn't

 

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 08:22 PM

64. Exactly what we've been Saying!!!

Thank You, SHRED!

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Response to Cha (Reply #64)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:27 PM

73. De nada

 

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:29 PM

74. Yes, It is treason, not "#Collusion, #conspire, and #traitor" AND they did not influence the

election, they STOLE it. So let's get past "influence" and call it what it is. Theft. Stealing. Through an attack that was indeed an act of war.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 09:44 PM

77. We here

at DU are very well informed about the situation, but how many others out in the country know what the hell is being done???

Or are they completely oblivious of what is being said.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 10:16 PM

81. The sooner Wikileaks is cast into the fiery pit from hell from which it came, the better!!!

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:20 PM

95. I've ALWAYS said this was treason.

And McConnell, that slime, is in it up to his disgusting turtle nose hairs. Put him in the dock.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:29 PM

96. FYI. The Aggressive Progressive on FB has your tweet. It just showed up

in my Facebook feed.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #96)

Sat Jul 14, 2018, 11:37 PM

97. Ok I'll check it out

 

Thanks for the heads up.
👍

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 12:24 AM

98. That viewpoint might easily backfire. ANY cooperation? Treason?

Think! Uranium One deal?


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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:45 AM

100. It seems Mueller takes his Ralph Waldo Emerson seriously.

quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson:,

“When you strike at a king you must kill him.”

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 02:26 AM

102. "Deptuty Attorney General Rod Rsenstein said he has no evidence . . .

. . . that the hacking changed the outcome of the 2016 election, nor that 'any American was a knowing participant in the alleged unlawful activity. '”



Full text of indictment available at the following link:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/read-muellers-full-indictment-against-12-russian-officers-for-election-interference

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 08:15 AM

104. Been calling it treason for quite a while...

but most didn’t realize that we were at war making treason easy to see. The argument against was that we were not at war, negating treason.

CyberWar is a real War and it is being waged against us now.

This is the little stuff that can happen wait till the infrastructure starts to be hacked. Anything digital attached to the internet is vulnerable. That includes the “Internet of things” which provides many doors to open.

It’s not a one way war. We are not only on the defense we have offense too, but we sustained a big broadside hit.

The media needs to wake up and report this for what it is. WAR.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 09:33 AM

108. Until I read your post and some of the comments,

I agreed that Treason required war. I have now changed my view. Aaron Burr was tried for treason.
from Wikipedia
"Trial. Burr was charged with treason because of the alleged conspiracy and stood trial in Richmond, Virginia. He was acquitted due to lack of evidence of treason, as Chief Justice Marshall did not consider conspiracy without actions sufficient for conviction."
The conspirators took lots of actions to elect Trump.

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Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Jul 15, 2018, 09:39 AM

110. This is how war is waged now. There's no messy clean-up involved.

Why blow shit up and leave a 99-year radioactive cloud, when you can topple democracies by getting into their citizen's heads and turn them against their own institutions and one another?

And it's done cheaply enough to allow for multiple arenas of conflict simultaneously. What's not for Putin to like here?

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