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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsdalton99a
(80,907 posts)It was a treasonous plan involving the entire GOP hierarchy.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)to finally describe what was happening two years ago this month. Thank you thank you.
elleng
(129,800 posts)and Dem party should do so too.
triron
(21,880 posts)So have some others here on DU. There were a lot of deniers back then.
alterfurz
(2,466 posts)CrispyQ
(36,112 posts)I got this tee. Got a from two people the first time I wore it.
MustLoveBeagles
(11,558 posts)calimary
(80,522 posts)Thats just flat out terrific!!!
FailureToCommunicate
(13,968 posts)VOX
(22,976 posts)Fucking brilliant.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)CTyankee
(63,708 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)I'd favor public hangings.
CrispyQ
(36,112 posts)SHRED
(28,136 posts)erronis
(14,853 posts)Gross.
When Mussolini "got his" I don't think it was video-taped. There'll be millions of video/cell-phone/drone recorders watching its last twitches. One for history.
Question is, should we start with the lower-ranking traitors and slowly work our way up, or get the orange one first? How can we convince pute and his oligarchs to come to the beautiful semi-submerged Mer-de-largo for an all expenses holiday? Paid for with glee by the US taxpayers.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,684 posts)In 1945 video tape didn't exist. It might possibly have been filmed, but no doubt we'd have seen that film by now. His body, along with that of his mistress, was photographed, and the photos were widely disseminated. I'm thinking they may have been published in Life Magazine at the time, but I'm not entirely sure.
erronis
(14,853 posts)It's going to be hard for the next several generations to keep all the media types in order based on availability. I think a lot of them don't have the "special encoding bytes" at the start of their files such as sand/cave drawings, Daguerreotypes, ...
You know what I like about DU is that there are so many really intelligent people here (well, xcept the bots/etc.) that care about the messages.
bdamomma
(63,562 posts)the movie Gangs of New York, they would chop of their heads and display on pikes for all to see.
hedda_foil
(16,362 posts)Bluepinky
(2,256 posts)triron
(21,880 posts)RKP5637
(67,008 posts)is spying or using spies, normally in order to get political or military information." (from Quora definition source)
I think we've got both going on, at least one for sure. Including a coup.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)RKP5637
(67,008 posts)impeach Rosenstein. It might as well be on billboards by now.
ooky
(8,867 posts)- 12 Russian military officers just indicted for cyber espionage against the United States.
- United States President goes to see Russian leader who gave those officers their orders, 3 days later.
- U.S. President ignores the indictments, says nothing, does nothing, effectively aiding and abetting the Russian leader who attacked the United States.
What definition of treason would not fit that scenario?
Dems in Congress need to be all over this come Monday.
RKP5637
(67,008 posts)his sleeve. Putin, will totally use Trump against America and Trump will be clueless ... or is in on the deal.
FakeNoose
(32,202 posts)Get the firing squad ready. Or maybe we can borrow France's guillotine.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)Viva Le France!!!
mnhtnbb
(31,302 posts)for a long time.
BigmanPigman
(51,368 posts)to see if they still make them.
triron
(21,880 posts)I told my US senators office over a year ago that a traitor was in the WH.
And Congress should be insisting, right now, at minimum, that during that meeting the President demands the extradition of those 12 Russian military officers,
plus, the President and Congress take measured disciplinary response actions against the Russian government.
If those things don't happen it is solid evidence that something has gone seriously wrong with this government. At which point all American patriots rise up and take to the streets.
Saguaro
(79 posts)... he'll come back and say "But Vlad said they didn't do it. And I believe him!"
ooky
(8,867 posts)the 12 indictments make that more problematic now for Congress to just accept that. Past that point I won't make any predictions what will happen next, but it could be an explosive situation.
Saguaro
(79 posts)What will it take for the GOP to say "That's a line I won't cross"? Will it be this? How many of their constituents will be OK with opening our doors (or the Baltic doors) to Russia?
I remember a time when Russian interference in American affairs and collegial Presidential collaboration with Vladimir Putin would have been frowned upon. And that was just three years ago.
The Mouth
(3,118 posts)Unless and until there is a declaration of war against Russia.
The Mouth
(3,118 posts)In fact it has been literally impossible to commit since 1945, as it requires a declaration of war.
Even the Rosenbergs were not convicted of treason, and the I've gotten into near fights with 'nam vets when I pointed out that waht Jane Fonda did was not treason. ONLY with a declaration of war can a person be guilty of it.
Treason is *NOT* merely something that harms the country. It was very narrowly defined in the Constitution because the writers of same had seen the word used to describe any enemy of the state.
I't is entirely possible that espionage has been committed and is being committed, still a capital offense. Sorry to piss on everyone's parade
RKP5637
(67,008 posts)former9thward
(31,684 posts)It defines treason. Nothing that happened with Russia is treason. Go argue with the Constitution.
Kingofalldems
(38,314 posts)former9thward
(31,684 posts)Its in the Constitution also. And from his tweet, he doesn't. "War" or not? Hmmm.. What a concise legal opinion....
brush
(53,331 posts)Cyberwar is a thing and the Russian military engaged in it against our election process.
That's what the indictments were about.
If Americans worked with them that is clearly treason.
Hell, trump even begged for Russia to help on national TV.
former9thward
(31,684 posts)Because that is not what it says.
brush
(53,331 posts)cyber warfare, sure seems to fall within what the Constitution defines as treason. See post #50 for a more comprehensive definition of how the attack constitutes an act of war.
TomSlick
(11,013 posts)There is no definition of the word "war" in the Constitution. The Constitution gives the Congress the power to declare war but it does not require a declaration of war for a state of war to exist.
As a matter of interpretation, in the absence of a definition, words are given their usual meaning. There is no question the Russian attack is not an "international armed conflict" within the meaning of the Geneva Convention. However, both the Constitution and the Geneva Convention predate the advent of cyber warfare. A reasonable definition of war today must include a cyber attack. If Russia conducts a cyber attack that cause US nuclear power plants to melt-down killing hundreds of Americans, that would surely be an act of war. A Russian cyber attack on US elections is no less an act of war.
The Russian military attacked us. Sure, no ordinance was expended but it was a military attack nevertheless. If the military of one country attacks another, it is an act of war.
former9thward
(31,684 posts)War is only declared by Congress. Period. So since you think the Russian attack is no less "an act of war" that would kill "hundreds of Americans" then should we attack Russia militarily? Missiles? If not, why not?
greyl
(22,990 posts)Would you not consider that an act of war?
And you think Russia would not react "non-militarily" So you are willing to have scores of millions of Americans die. OK, know where you are coming from.
greyl
(22,990 posts)Edit: Or, maybe you're admitting that there could be such a thing as a non-armed forces act of war.
former9thward
(31,684 posts)Others have not addressed the inconvenient truths that arise from their positions.
greyl
(22,990 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 15, 2018, 01:22 AM - Edit history (1)
TomSlick
(11,013 posts)A proportionate attack would be a cyber attack - say one grabbing the bank accounts of some of Putin's favorite oligarchs.
The Mouth
(3,118 posts)and if so, it's still a hanging offense.
All due respect, but we have a perfectly good work in Espionage', no need to broaden something else.
TomSlick
(11,013 posts)I have found no authority that answers the question whether a declaration of war is an essential element for a treason charge. It might be better to leave the question unanswered. The law of unintended consequence has to be considered.
The necessary goal can be reached under the conspiracy and espionage laws. I'm not interested in seeing a capital sentence, I remain opposed to capital punishment. However, seeing a handful of Trump campaign officials in prison for a decade or two would seem to me to be justice.
The Mouth
(3,118 posts)The offenses are already covered.
Enlarging the definition of 'Treason' is dangerous; as soon as it becomes 'something I /We think is wrong' a dangerous door is opened. The people who wrote the constitution, for all their faults, were aware that having the King or the Parliament define 'treason' however they would was not the way to proceed, and wrote a very narrow and specific definition. Words have meanings. They fried the Rosenbergs just fine with merely 'espionage'.
Progressive dog
(6,854 posts)when he conspired with the Spanish (the Spanish were not at war with the USA) to steal part of the Louisiana purchase for a new country.
from Wikipedia "Trial. Burr was charged with treason because of the alleged conspiracy and stood trial in Richmond, Virginia. He was acquitted due to lack of evidence of treason, as Chief Justice Marshall did not consider conspiracy without actions sufficient for conviction."
The Russians, like the Spanish, could levy war against the US without the US declaring war against the Russians.
Unlike in Burr's case, the Russians did levy war against us.
If Trump and his allies participated in the Russian scheme, they could be charged with treason.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,647 posts)I agree with you. The actions are traitorous in a colloquial sense, but prosecutable treason is a completely different thing.
I consider the entire GOP treasonous at this point, but it doesn't mean a thing in the legal sense.
TomSlick
(11,013 posts)I long ago swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Before that, I studied the Constitution, and constitutional law and took the attorney's oath to support the Constitution.
Here is what the Constitution says:
Article III, Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
The Russian military engaged in a cyber attack on the United States. The paradigm has changed. Wars no longer necessary involve the expenditure of ordinance or the killing of soldiers. Wars can be conducted over the Internet. The US military recognized the change in 2009 when US Cyber Command was created. The Russian attack was an act of war. Any US citizen that aided in that attack gave "aid and comfort" to the enemies of the United States in levying war against the United States. By the Constitutional definition, it was treason.
The Russian attack has not stopped. Anyone who is assisting the Russian attack by attempting to stop the investigation of the attack or deflect attention from the real and present danger is also guilty of treason.
The United States is under attack. The attack cannot be defended against until we admit it is occurring.
dansolo
(5,376 posts)You actually misquoted the constitution in your explanation. The important part is "or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort". The "or" is textually important. That means that the first part of the clause (in levying war against them) is not required. There may be a debate as to what defines someone as an enemy, but being technically at war is not a prerequisite for treason.
TomSlick
(11,013 posts)Please recheck my quote. The "or in adhering to their enemies" language is there.
I contend that a state of war is an essential element of the offense. What I'm saying is that we are at war, or at least Russia is at war with us. We are doing nothing to defend ourselves, much less strike back.
I see nothing in the Constitution requiring a declaration of war for a treason charge. If that was the case, it would not be treason to lower US defense before an attack.
ChazInAz
(2,528 posts)Just put a sea lion on "Full Ignore" who was parsing this ludicrously, claiming to be a constitutional lawyer.
onetexan
(12,971 posts)Which is unchartered territory and yet to be determined whether cyber aggression is an actual war. If regarded from the perspective it's caused great harm to do our democracy then yes, technically we are at war, provoked by the soviets.
former9thward
(31,684 posts)The Constitution says wars are declared by Congress. Why didn't Obama ask for a declaration of war?
TomSlick
(11,013 posts)There is little question that we have been engaged in multiple wars since then.
Whether or not we are "at war" with the Russians, there is no question Russia is at war with us.
former9thward
(31,684 posts)The U.S. has to declare it. Without that there is no treason. BTW if Russia is at war why are they sending our astronauts into space? Seems weird that a country at war accepts hitchhikers of the other country onto its spacecraft.
TomSlick
(11,013 posts)The Constitution provides that Congress has the authority to declare war but it neither defines "war" nor provides that if the US is attacked by a foreign country we are not "at war."
I have found no authority for the proposition that a declaration of war is necessary for a state of war to exist as an element of treason. In Montoya v. United States, 180 U.S. 261 (1901), the Court recognized that while a declaration of war is necessary for the initiation of a "solemn war," a "state of war" can exist without such a declaration of war.
It seems incredible to me that if a US citizen disabled NORAD in preparation for a Russian missile attack, it would be an act of treason. It seems at least likely that if a US citizen cooperated with the Russian military in a cyber attack, it would equally be treason.
If I was prosecuting such a person, I would charge treason and the underlying conspiracy. I would then allow the defendant to plead to the conspiracy to avoid a capital sentence.
former9thward
(31,684 posts)The citation is the Constitution and its definition of treason.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
U.S. Constitution - Article 3 Section 3
Notice the mention of "War"? Now if you are going to say Russia is an "Enemy" of the U.S. how is it that this "enemy" takes our hitchhiking astronauts into space? How is it that we have, and continue to have all sorts of agreements with Russia and many other matters. That is not what "enemies" do. How is it that we have embassies in each other's countries? We don't have embassies in N. Korea or Iran.
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,480 posts)The world had not yet witnessed a massive cyber attacked that could bring a nation to its knees overnight, and I have no doubt Russia and possibly other international players have that capability. Some nations have even claimed to have an internet "kill switch" to prevent a massive external attack, but the effectiveness of that is dubious.
Just like with nuclear weapons as a deterrent, those players know we can counter-attack and bring them down with us - and I doubt if anyone wants that to happen. But, just as with nuclear, there's always the possibility of rogue players in the mix.
There's also the point that defenses against cyber attacks are a mix of private and government semi-protections - somewhat different from military defenses and deterrents.
So relatively, we might say that we're now in a cyber cold war and heaven forbid if we're ever in a "hot' one. That event could also escalate into a full-blown conventional military conflict.
Wouldn't it be wise for Congress to pass some legislation that clarifies what constitutes war in the non-traditional sense? I think lines must be drawn to prevent abuse of treason claims - perhaps by the USSC - so that in the case of a fascist, totalitarian administration (like Trump would prefer), that massive numbers of people could not be charged with treason from dubious or fabricated digital evidence.
.................
Haggis for Breakfast
(6,831 posts)former9thward
(31,684 posts)Did you black out the parts you didn't like?
lpbk2713
(42,674 posts)We will go out with a whimper because our economic system will be fubar.
Kruschev will have been proven correct ... "We will destroy you from within" .
dlk
(11,378 posts)Would everyone have been using the same kid gloves if it were a Democrat?
triron
(21,880 posts)Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)And at the end of the day, their interpretation will probably prevail -diffusing what SHOULD be considered treason under modern-day applications of warfare by clinging to the precedents of the past. It's a shame, actually. There should be a reckoning of the most gravitous manner, to warn off future fascist wannabes and to conform the penalty to the crimes.
If Trump and his minions would hang, the turmoil that would ensue may destroy us forever. But NOT applying the strongest of penalties, we can be ASSURED that this will happen again and again in the USA, because that 35-40% tea party element exists and will always exist within.
AlexSFCA
(6,137 posts)Brainstormy
(2,379 posts)sandensea
(21,460 posts)He's been done since 2015 at least.
pandr32
(11,419 posts)It makes it sound so minor--it wasn't and isn't.
TomSlick
(11,013 posts)It isn't meddling, it is an attack.
pandr32
(11,419 posts)...and it's ongoing. It is an act of war.
DallasNE
(7,390 posts)Has always been treason. But that light just got a whole lot closer and brighter.
bucolic_frolic
(42,478 posts)Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Back in 1950, the bombshell arrest of Julius & Ethel Rosenberg as traitors & Kremlin spies would have appeared troubling & out of absolutely nowhere -- a sinister FBI plot, even -- unless you were one of the very, very few Americans cleared for VENONA. Consider that a #HINT.
Sure are. Ditto with Hayden. They're both leaning forward, dropping easy-to-read hints of TS/SCI behind Mueller's green door. You know why? BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT'S COMING.
erronis
(14,853 posts)I expect that the noose is going to replace the red tie.
Does our system of government support the mass implication and prosecution of all parties within congress and the executive branch? How about SCOTUS? Do we need to do a purge and reconciliation such as South Africa (for better or for worse?)
bucolic_frolic
(42,478 posts)because of the rumors of deeply dispersed campaign cash from foreign sources.
What you ponder is a wholly adequate, complete, and neatly bow-tied answer to election thievery. To wit, a government that has flipped majorities due to empty seats because of dozens in the slammer. Could it happen? Who knows.
FakeNoose
(32,202 posts)He does drop hints but he doesn't tip his hand. How does that guy sleep at night, with everything he knows?
bucolic_frolic
(42,478 posts)Haggis for Breakfast
(6,831 posts)know what's coming, they also know how this will be finally resolved.
elleng
(129,800 posts)world wide wally
(21,714 posts)WhiteTara
(29,670 posts)It's been treason all along.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Since current use and understanding of the word includes:
Any act which is meant to undermine and subvert American governmental process and function for personal or politcal gain will be an act of treason.
The addition of cold and cyber to warfare is the reason for this change.
Declared shooting wars haven't happened since WWII.
blue-wave
(4,297 posts)Every day every one of us should use this.
BarbD
(1,190 posts)threatening our national security. That's treason in my book.
CTyankee
(63,708 posts)FM123
(10,042 posts)"Under the Constitution an individual commits treason if the nation is at war and the person provides aid and comfort to the enemy. This is an impeachable offense, committed by word or deed. It's one that individuals need to start grappling with seriously because it is not some far-fetched liberal fantasy to conclude that Donald Trump may have committed treason. In fact, the case is fairly simple to make."
https://www.thedailybeast.com/its-not-a-liberal-fantasy-to-ask-if-trump-committed-treason
Eyeball_Kid
(7,398 posts)The definition of treason does not apply.
Espionage? Yes. Along with various other crimes that Im sure that Mueller will use to indict.
Haggis for Breakfast
(6,831 posts)Or on Iraq ? Or on Afghanistan ? Or on Syria ?
Ask the DEAD American troops is that distinction matters at all.
OMGWTF
(3,857 posts)OliverQ
(3,363 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Cha
(295,543 posts)Thank You, SHRED!
Amaryllis
(9,523 posts)election, they STOLE it. So let's get past "influence" and call it what it is. Theft. Stealing. Through an attack that was indeed an act of war.
bdamomma
(63,562 posts)at DU are very well informed about the situation, but how many others out in the country know what the hell is being done???
Or are they completely oblivious of what is being said.
Initech
(99,881 posts)PatrickforO
(14,479 posts)And McConnell, that slime, is in it up to his disgusting turtle nose hairs. Put him in the dock.
Autumn
(44,686 posts)in my Facebook feed.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Thanks for the heads up.
👍
Petrushka
(3,709 posts)Think! Uranium One deal?
hedda_foil
(16,362 posts)quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson:,
When you strike at a king you must kill him.
Petrushka
(3,709 posts)Full text of indictment available at the following link:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/read-muellers-full-indictment-against-12-russian-officers-for-election-interference
N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,550 posts)but most didnt realize that we were at war making treason easy to see. The argument against was that we were not at war, negating treason.
CyberWar is a real War and it is being waged against us now.
This is the little stuff that can happen wait till the infrastructure starts to be hacked. Anything digital attached to the internet is vulnerable. That includes the Internet of things which provides many doors to open.
Its not a one way war. We are not only on the defense we have offense too, but we sustained a big broadside hit.
The media needs to wake up and report this for what it is. WAR.
Progressive dog
(6,854 posts)I agreed that Treason required war. I have now changed my view. Aaron Burr was tried for treason.
from Wikipedia
"Trial. Burr was charged with treason because of the alleged conspiracy and stood trial in Richmond, Virginia. He was acquitted due to lack of evidence of treason, as Chief Justice Marshall did not consider conspiracy without actions sufficient for conviction."
The conspirators took lots of actions to elect Trump.
VOX
(22,976 posts)Why blow shit up and leave a 99-year radioactive cloud, when you can topple democracies by getting into their citizen's heads and turn them against their own institutions and one another?
And it's done cheaply enough to allow for multiple arenas of conflict simultaneously. What's not for Putin to like here?