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RandySF

(57,659 posts)
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:00 PM Nov 2019

Pa. bill would require death certificates for fertilized eggs that never implant in the uterus.

Anti-abortion lawmakers in Pennsylvania want to pass a bill that would require health providers to arrange burials or cremations for all of a person's "fetal remains," which under the lawmakers' terms, includes fertilized eggs that never implanted in the uterus.

But fertilized eggs must divide to become the ball of cells that implants in the uterus for a pregnancy to occur.

The proposed bill also means health providers would have to obtain death certificates for all fertilized, but not implanted, eggs, since in order to to obtain a burial permit, you first have to obtain a death certificate, Christine Castro, a staff attorney at the Pennsylvania-based Women's Law Project, told Vice. "The bill is written in a misleading way," she said.

If the bill, known as the "Pennsylvania Final Disposition of Fetal Remains Act," passes and isn't followed, it could result in a $50 to $300 fine or up to 30 days in prison for providers.

The problem is women, and even their doctors, can't track when or how many fertilized eggs don't implant in the uterus because those eggs typically dissolve in utero and are shed through a woman's menstrual lining every month, making them undetectable.


https://www.businessinsider.com/pennsylvania-bill-would-require-death-certificates-for-fertilized-eggs-2019-11

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Pa. bill would require death certificates for fertilized eggs that never implant in the uterus. (Original Post) RandySF Nov 2019 OP
Another moronic bill that will not become law. MineralMan Nov 2019 #1
Absolutely. But at some point a life-at-conception bill Hortensis Nov 2019 #8
Legislators need to pay a price for introducing idiotic bills like this. LiberalFighter Nov 2019 #18
Who is going to punish them? Blue_true Nov 2019 #24
It is bills like this one that are killing republicans. Blue_true Nov 2019 #22
I'm on The Pill. Would that mean Harrisburg would send me a monthly death certificate or two? no_hypocrisy Nov 2019 #2
Name the menstruation after the idiot. LiberalFighter Nov 2019 #19
Poor PA Ohiogal Nov 2019 #3
Thank God for Gov. Wolf Freddie Nov 2019 #29
It's not our fault. Dagstead Bumwood Nov 2019 #31
Hey Ohiogal, we must think alike blueinredohio Nov 2019 #42
Hahaha! Good one, blueinredohio! Ohiogal Nov 2019 #43
Very very true and stuck with Gym Jordan too. blueinredohio Nov 2019 #44
As an Ohioan Ohiogal Nov 2019 #45
Please keep in mind that here in hillbilly hell SW PA.... Freedomofspeech Dec 2019 #53
WTF? sakabatou Nov 2019 #4
Apart from the fact this is insanely repressive, these assholes don't even know The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2019 #5
They write these laws without a basic knowledge of medicine RainCaster Nov 2019 #6
They get elected in their districts precisely because of their ignorance. Blue_true Nov 2019 #26
I'm beginning to think they're trying to "Trump" us. Be so crazy anything becomes normal. bitterross Nov 2019 #7
So does that include thinkingagain Nov 2019 #9
To Be Fair murpheeslaw Nov 2019 #10
Yes durablend Nov 2019 #15
Yes, of course. Masturbation is the Sin of Onan, who cast his seed upon the ground... Hekate Nov 2019 #39
If you send biological waste in the mail Loki Liesmith Nov 2019 #11
I'm positive you are correct thinkingagain Nov 2019 #20
A miscarriage is an abortion. keithbvadu2 Nov 2019 #46
the entire point of these idiotic laws is that they are idiotic... TreasonousBastard Nov 2019 #12
Rough Math, 480 menstrual cycles for me irisblue Nov 2019 #13
Follow the link. Read the bill. Ms. Toad Nov 2019 #14
Seems pretty accurate to me, when applied to healthcare facilities. muriel_volestrangler Nov 2019 #16
The word implant does not appear in the bill at all - Ms. Toad Nov 2019 #35
No, you are giving the writers of the bill too much benefit of the doubt muriel_volestrangler Nov 2019 #40
No matter how extensive or not, it's cruelly absurd. dawg day Nov 2019 #28
Agreed - Ms. Toad Nov 2019 #33
The page won't open for me Pool Hall Ace Nov 2019 #32
Not sure why it is not working - Ms. Toad Nov 2019 #34
Someone better buy a shitload of microscopes Ruby the Liberal Nov 2019 #17
Many fertilized eggs go down the toilet before anyone knows they exist. Vinca Nov 2019 #21
I am so fucking sick of this shit, I can't stand it. GoCubsGo Nov 2019 #23
This is ludicrous spanone Nov 2019 #25
Even before Roe V. Wade, women were allowed to miscarry without legal penalty. dawg day Nov 2019 #27
True experience: Ilsa Nov 2019 #36
So nearly every family Turbineguy Nov 2019 #30
OK, how does one write a death certificate for something that never had a birth certificate? MrScorpio Nov 2019 #37
I'd be tempted to send those idiots a monthly menstrual pad for their personal examination... Hekate Nov 2019 #38
One good thing that might come out of this gratuitous Nov 2019 #41
Would the woman get to file for a child tax credit for her miscarriage? OhioBlue Dec 2019 #47
I literally just slapped my forehead n/t TexasBushwhacker Dec 2019 #48
the GOP is anti-science TeamPooka Dec 2019 #49
FFS! Stop the insanity! smirkymonkey Dec 2019 #50
1/2 of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions. Buzz cook Dec 2019 #51
I always wonder why the male isn't named and eventually jailed. Frustratedlady Dec 2019 #52

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
1. Another moronic bill that will not become law.
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:02 PM
Nov 2019

Many bills are introduced. Few are passed.

Since it is impossible to detect fertilized ova that are not implanted, it's a ridiculous idea in the first place.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
8. Absolutely. But at some point a life-at-conception bill
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:09 PM
Nov 2019

might be passed by some extremist-heavy state government and at least initially result in action trying to keep an egg or fetus alive. Enormous medical bills are going to be run up as just the first indicator of what kind of costs to individuals, insurance companies and taxpayers considering fertilized eggs as people would mean. And of course females are going to be sent to prison for miscarriages and whatever. Remembering that young woman who initially was sentenced to 30 years under a law signed by Gov. Pence, later reversed.

Then more eyes will open. The satisfactions to some of persecuting unfortunates and to others romantically fighting for babies will be massively outweighed by realizations that the costs of continuing these satisfactions will be enormous to them personally, that good Christians like them are going to prison, and that it promises a future giant burden to society (i.e., them) of more often dreadfully ill children they didn't really want in the first place. And then it'll be repealed and this noise will disappear until the next era.

In this at least, libertarian, altruism-deficient billionaires are our best ally.

LiberalFighter

(50,504 posts)
18. Legislators need to pay a price for introducing idiotic bills like this.
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:17 PM
Nov 2019

And the penalty needs to happen during the legislative period. Something like their per diem is cut or the electricity is cut off in their office for a week. At the very least there should be sizeable article with the idiot's photo and the problem and stupidity of the person in both the state and local paper.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
24. Who is going to punish them?
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:52 PM
Nov 2019

Republicans had a gameplan. When they won legislatures, they were going to gerrymander the shit out of districts to maintain and grow their advantage. What they didn't count on was economic growth diversifying large parts of their states, where that has happened, republicans are in retreat.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
22. It is bills like this one that are killing republicans.
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:47 PM
Nov 2019

Women of all types, except for evangelicals are starting to see that they can't trust republicans with their and their daughters' wellbeing, that is why republicans are having growing problems with getting vote in inner and outer suburbs and why democrats have either flipped legislatures or have gained considerable ground and will eventually flip legislatures.

blueinredohio

(6,797 posts)
42. Hey Ohiogal, we must think alike
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 08:56 PM
Nov 2019

because I was going to say now people will understand why Ohio and Pennsylvania share a border. They both have a lot of stupid law makers.

Ohiogal

(31,669 posts)
43. Hahaha! Good one, blueinredohio!
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 09:02 PM
Nov 2019

At least they have a sane Governor over there.

We’re stuck with a religion nut who looks like a garden gnome.

Ohiogal

(31,669 posts)
45. As an Ohioan
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 09:23 PM
Nov 2019

I am ashamed that our state inflicted that idiot onto the nation. What a disgrace he is.

Freedomofspeech

(4,218 posts)
53. Please keep in mind that here in hillbilly hell SW PA....
Sun Dec 1, 2019, 09:12 AM
Dec 2019

We have West Virginia on our border. It is a nightmare.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,280 posts)
5. Apart from the fact this is insanely repressive, these assholes don't even know
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:04 PM
Nov 2019

basic reproductive biology. Just like the idiots in Ohio don't get that ectopic pregnancies can't be re-implanted.

RainCaster

(10,691 posts)
6. They write these laws without a basic knowledge of medicine
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:08 PM
Nov 2019

They are displaying their ignorance for all to see.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
26. They get elected in their districts precisely because of their ignorance.
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:56 PM
Nov 2019

A thoughtful politician doesn't go over well with the voters in the districts such idiots as the man that wrote that bill represent.

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
7. I'm beginning to think they're trying to "Trump" us. Be so crazy anything becomes normal.
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:08 PM
Nov 2019

I'm beginning to think this is a strategy (yep, I'm slow sometimes). They're trying to do what Trump does. Be so over-the-top crazy that we're no longer phased by anything. That way, when they propose the completely unreasonable, restrictive bills they really want, they hope we'll not notice because they don't include the crazy. Just the untenable.

thinkingagain

(905 posts)
9. So does that include
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:11 PM
Nov 2019

Miscarriages that happen spontaneously? Or naturally or whatever. If so is it then listed on the death certificate as an act of God?
Now a women’s period is a result of. In fertilized egg
Maybe the women should sent the Congress their used tampons ( gross I know but to make a point) to them tell them it’s in lieu of a death certificate as nothing happened.
These people are getting more and more bizarre.

Hekate

(90,202 posts)
39. Yes, of course. Masturbation is the Sin of Onan, who cast his seed upon the ground...
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 07:57 PM
Nov 2019

Sez so in the Old Testament.

Loki Liesmith

(4,602 posts)
11. If you send biological waste in the mail
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:22 PM
Nov 2019

Even as a protest, you will likely be fined. You may even go to jail.

thinkingagain

(905 posts)
20. I'm positive you are correct
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:28 PM
Nov 2019

It was just a moment of pure pissed off at their stupidity created my own train of not thinking clearly.
That is what is great about DU
Someone always has the voice of reason.😊

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
12. the entire point of these idiotic laws is that they are idiotic...
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:36 PM
Nov 2019

write an obviously insane law and it will immediately be ruled unconstitutional. The plan is to get one of them to the Supreme court where it can be ruled unconstitutional over all, but very narrowly constitutional.

That gives them the Roe override they need.

irisblue

(32,829 posts)
13. Rough Math, 480 menstrual cycles for me
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 03:47 PM
Nov 2019

6,533,392 females in PA per census, so guessing
6 million women times 400 cycles times an unknown number of hetrosexual coitus that occured without birth control means that a large number of women are going to get death certificates.

🙄


How TF is anyone going to keep track of that many premenopausal (primarily) hetrosexually active women?


This is some high grade BS

muriel_volestrangler

(101,154 posts)
16. Seems pretty accurate to me, when applied to healthcare facilities.
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:09 PM
Nov 2019

Here are the bill's definitions:

"Fetal death." The expulsion or extraction from its mother
of a product of conception which shows no evidence of life after
the expulsion or extraction.
"Fetal remains." The fetus expelled or extracted in the case
of a fetal death.
"Unborn child." An individual organism of the species homo
sapiens from fertilization until expulsion or extraction from
its mother.

Duties of health care facilities.--Except as provided
under subsection (a), a health care facility that possesses
fetal remains shall have the following duties:
(1) Provide for the final disposition of the fetal
remains in accordance with the burial and transit permit
requirements under 28 Pa. Code Ch. 1 (relating to
(administration of vital records).
(2) Cremate or inter the fetal remains.

Individuals at home wouldn't have to inter or cremate a fertilized egg, but if any healthcare facility possesses it (an inpatient has a period?), they would have to. It doesn't specify that they have to do a microscopic examination to check for fertilized eggs, but then again, it just says "possesses", not "knowingly possesses" or similar.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
35. The word implant does not appear in the bill at all -
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 07:23 PM
Nov 2019

yet is nearly the entire focus of the article - which leads the reader who does not check the actual language of the bill to believe that it focuses primarily or exclusively on pre-implantation fertilized eggs.

It is clearly addressing something of sufficient size to be able to "show no evidence of life."

It is still a riduculous bill. But it should be ridiculeded from its intended coverage - treating a miscarried fetus as a child who was born and then died.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,154 posts)
40. No, you are giving the writers of the bill too much benefit of the doubt
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 08:28 PM
Nov 2019

"its intended coverage - treating a miscarried fetus as a child who was born and then died". Their intention is clear - any fertilized egg. That's why they mention fertilisation and conception. And that means it includes (yes, the article uses the word 'includes' - it's in the opening paragraph, so no-one can believe it focuses exclusively on pre-implantation fertilized eggs) unimplanted eggs. It makes no mention of size, or miscarriage; it does mention fertilization.

And to think their intention is miscarriages is far too generous to them; miscarriages may well be mourned by the woman. It's terminations they want this to apply to, where the woman would almost certainly never want interment or cremation.

You can see they mean this to apply from the moment of conception; they want to change the state's definition of "fetal death" from "Fetal death is the expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of conception after sixteen weeks gestation, which shows no life after such expulsion or extraction" to leave out "after sixteen weeks gestation".

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
28. No matter how extensive or not, it's cruelly absurd.
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:03 PM
Nov 2019

Burying the remains of an early miscarriage? Good lord, who is going to pay for that? And why? What possibly is the point of that, except to make some stupid statement about terminated pregnancies--even those terminated by "God"-- must be treated like born humans?

These bills must be ridiculed and stomped on. They are meant to make women of reproductive age controlled by the government in ways no man is. And why? Because they hate women, what other reason could there be?

Pool Hall Ace

(5,849 posts)
32. The page won't open for me
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 06:52 PM
Nov 2019

How can a death certificate be issued if there was never a birth certificate? Are they talking about a certificate of still birth?

Regardless, it is utter lunacy.

Vinca

(50,170 posts)
21. Many fertilized eggs go down the toilet before anyone knows they exist.
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 04:41 PM
Nov 2019

Maybe these people should spend their time holding last rites over the toilet bowls of their fertile, female followers every month.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
27. Even before Roe V. Wade, women were allowed to miscarry without legal penalty.
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:00 PM
Nov 2019

It's not even usually obviously a miscarriage when an egg doesn't implant. Often it seems like just a late period (which is actually what it is).

The woman probably never knew she was pregnant, and in fact, she wasn't, because implantation is when the pregnancy really would start.

If the PA legislators want to take personal charge of this and sift through women's used tampons, they should say so.

Ilsa

(61,675 posts)
36. True experience:
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 07:27 PM
Nov 2019

One Thursday I found out I was pregnant. On Friday, I miscarried. If I had waited one more day to take a home pregnancy test, I never would have known.

The conceptus was flushed down the toilet on toilet paper.

Turbineguy

(37,212 posts)
30. So nearly every family
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 05:47 PM
Nov 2019

with female members over the age of 12 would have to cough up for a funeral every 28 days per female family member.

Can the funeral industry handle that? 150 million funerals per month? That would keep over 1.6 million funeral homes in business. More if they take weekends off.

MrScorpio

(73,626 posts)
37. OK, how does one write a death certificate for something that never had a birth certificate?
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 07:34 PM
Nov 2019

Or am I over-complicating this?

Hekate

(90,202 posts)
38. I'd be tempted to send those idiots a monthly menstrual pad for their personal examination...
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 07:52 PM
Nov 2019

Just to be on the safe side, you know. They can then decide whether or not to call in the clergy for a funeral.

Christ in a trailer hitch these people are insane. Disgusting. Misogynists. They really, really hate women.

And by now I hate them.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
41. One good thing that might come out of this
Sat Nov 30, 2019, 08:40 PM
Nov 2019

The knucklehead brigade that comes up with these stupid ideas could see how many of these spontaneous abortions occur without human intervention at all. Which makes their God the author of more abortions than any humans ever could.

OhioBlue

(5,126 posts)
47. Would the woman get to file for a child tax credit for her miscarriage?
Sun Dec 1, 2019, 01:37 AM
Dec 2019

It has been a while since I took a tax class, but I believe if a woman delivers a still born or if there are complications at birth and the baby doesn't make it, and a death certificate is issued, the mother can file for a child tax credit.

Buzz cook

(2,470 posts)
51. 1/2 of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions.
Sun Dec 1, 2019, 03:08 AM
Dec 2019

The majority of them happen so early that the woman doesn't even know she's pregnant.

Gotta say the image of women sending their used sanitary napkins to republicans so they can find the egg is pretty funny.

Frustratedlady

(16,254 posts)
52. I always wonder why the male isn't named and eventually jailed.
Sun Dec 1, 2019, 03:17 AM
Dec 2019

After all, it was his sperm that started the whole thing.

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