General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJust got back from Senator Wyden's town hall this afternoon, and he said that if Trump ordered
the bombing of cultural sites, he thought the military would refuse. Wow.
He said the Iran issue will be the biggest issue on people's agenda when they go back to DC tomorrow, and there is huge opposition both to what has already happened and even more to bombing cultural sites.
He talked about the issue for quite awhile, and mentioned the War Powers Act and that there will be a lot of action around it in the next few days. He said there has not been nearly enough oversight by Congress (as far as War Powers) for years now and pointed out that he was one of the lone votes against invading Iraq.
We will see what happens; if this is enough to get GOP on board with any kind of accountability or actual action.
Dan
(3,524 posts)Then I would hope you have pictures because they would be toast.
The only checks/balances against the POTUS exercising his military power is his removal from office. Anything else is a wet dream.
Amaryllis
(9,523 posts)shadowmayor
(1,325 posts)Call 'em targets and the bombs and missiles will fall. What they actually land upon matters not. For those who hope it's otherwise, bad news people. That's not how the military rolls.
ck4829
(34,966 posts)But in this age of resurgent nationalism, we're seeing the lowest of the low and the worst of the worst be soldiers for Trump.
If he gave the order to rape, they would rape. If he gave the order to murder children, they would murder children. If he gave the order to pillage from their neighbors, they would pillage from their neighbors. So if he gave the order to bomb cultural sites, they would do so without a second thought.
Dan
(3,524 posts)There are legitimate military orders, and then there are illegal orders.
Most soldiers are not like Donald J. Trump, they will not rape (via for pleasure or as a result of an order) nor follow through on an obvious illegal order. They have not only the right but a legal obligation to refuse an illegal order - and most would. There are very few military leaders like Donald J. Trump that would give such an order to rape someone, thats not a tough guy but a wimp acting like what he thinks is a tough guy.
But a military mission to destroy a (or many) cultural centers - it would be toast. Not because the military member would necessarily want too, but the reasons behind the destruction would not necessarily be known - as such, it would be considered a valid military target.
Now, one day- we might want to speculate on how Iran might react. Personally, if I were Donald Trump Jr., I would probably be wearing a diaper to catch the shit that will one day come his way from the Middle East. Of course, he might be too stupid to realize that he is a legitimate target based on the actions of his daddy. There were reasons that we didnt engage in assassinations (without deniability) in the past.
soldierant
(6,647 posts)it is almost a sure thing that there are some who would disobey. The questions are how many, and which ones. If enough in high enough positions would disobey, then, yeah, maybe. If not, then not so much.
NewJeffCT
(56,827 posts)but, they're in the war zone and if their commander in chief tells them to bomb certain sites in Iran, they're probably not going to stop to check if the certain sites are legal.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)The issue seems to be that the military doesn't always know all of the reasons and details behind the orders they're given, so they can't second-guess an order just because, on its face, it might seem to be contrary to law. But some things, such as rape or genocide, cannot have any rational, strategic or legal basis, are obviously illegal, and therefore, the military would be justified in disobeying such an order.
Is that correct?
Dan
(3,524 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)to intentionally bomb Iranian cultural sites is at the very least wrong and clearly has nothing to do with anything other than his sick mind..!
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)And the fact that you or I think it has nothing to do with anything other than his insanity is not enough to justify the military disobeying an order from the civilian commander-in-chief. That's a slippery slope we don't want to go down.
The time to prevent these situations is before we put someone like Trump in this position. Once he's in it, he has inordinate powers, especially with regard to the armed forces. I hope the "I just don't like Hillary so let's throw Trump up against the wall and see if he sticks" crowd now better understands why we shouldn't treat elections so cavalierly.
dware
(12,092 posts)and the poster that said that if Trump ordered the military rape, murder children, pillage, is full of it, 99.9% of military members would refuse to do so and so would the high brass.
dware
(12,092 posts)This from a career Marine.
triron
(21,914 posts)colorado_ufo
(5,715 posts)that even the Nazis spared a few cultural sites?
Collimator
(1,639 posts). . . is SOP for the Taliban and other extremists. Remember the destruction of the Buddhas?
Oh, wait--another thought. Destruction of iconic buildings and other cultural monuments is also a standard trope in outer space invaders movies. Is Michael Bay directing this nonsense?
colorado_ufo
(5,715 posts)It was heartbreaking. Also, so many of the artifacts and historic sites have been lost in Iraq and Afghanistan. After the top of Saddam Hussein, many treasures were lost to looters.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)still_one
(91,937 posts)they would have no problem finding those who would
calimary
(80,693 posts)Unfortunately the title Commander-in-Chief comes with the title President. Thats how this civilian understands it, anyway.
enough
(13,235 posts)mahina
(17,502 posts)https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/6055734/court-martial-of-lt-ehren-watada-ends-with-a-surprise-conclusion/
Bless him and his family. Aloha oe Bob Watada.
https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-a-soldier-disobey-an-order/
The military is a hierarchical organization. Some degree of obedience to the orders of superior officers is required for the organization to function. But those who serve in the U.S. military are not automatons, and they are not asked to surrender all independent moral judgment when they sign their enlistment papers. American servicemembers are defending a nation of laws, not of men. Their obligation to obey the orders of their superiors does not include orders that are palpably illegal.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)I won't hold my breath.
The GOP will be all in, count on it.
triron
(21,914 posts)Grasswire2
(13,564 posts)And did he also talk about election security issues?
Amaryllis
(9,523 posts)passed and is trying to get it voted on in the senate, but Moscow Mitch....Wyden has been all over this issue for years now, pushing for hand marked paper ballets, audits, and cyber security. Also for years He has been all over ES&S installing remote access software on voting machines and trying to bring accountability there.
Grasswire2
(13,564 posts)Everyone who cares about election security should be following the work of Jennifer Cohn. She gives a lot of credit to Wyden.
Hekate
(90,189 posts)It's extremely important
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,483 posts)This week will be interesting to say the least.
Let's all hope cooler heads prevail on both sides and we get this thing away from a fevered pitch.....
yaesu
(8,020 posts)doing terrorist things he is no different from ISIS. This whole situation is so wrong. Iran does not want a war with this orange menace they even called him a terrorist who wears a suit. Very true.
RockRaven
(14,782 posts)(or instructions/edicts/directions if civilian) from POTUS in the lifetime of anyone in any government position today. They will follow illegal and immoral orders. And we know this because they have time after time already.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)faith and wealth over reason.
BSdetect
(8,989 posts)He has become addicted to destroying enemies - real or imagined.
He will escalate matters trying to avoid impeachment at any cost.
The Iranians are perhaps only slightly less insane.
He must be removed asap.
getagrip_already
(14,225 posts)Would love to blow up the mosque on the temple mount.
How's that for a cultural target?
Cartoonist
(7,297 posts)Supposedly it would kill everyone with radiation while leaving buildings intact.
BlueMTexpat
(15,348 posts)Amaryllis,!
Wyden is one of the "good guys."
He was also in good company with his vote against the IWR.
Both of my Senators from MD - Sarbanes and Mikulski - also opposed it. As did Ted Kennedy.
There some others who also opposed it.
It's too bad that other Dems did not follow their lead.
bucolic_frolic
(42,651 posts)should be ignored in my opinion. Military engagement is not anarchy. Even Cadet Bone Spurs, the military school genius, should remember that.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)dware
(12,092 posts)The vast majority of military members would absolutely refuse to follow an illegal order, of course there are bad apples in the military, just like in any other occupation, but for the most part, we have very good people in our Armed Forces.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)dware
(12,092 posts)I believe it would fall to the JAG to determine if an order was illegal or not and I believe that if there is any doubt, the JAG would be consulted before such order is carried out.
Hope that helps.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Among other things, the JAG is not privy to any more information than the combat officers have.
For example, if the president orders an attack on a compound, there may be good reasons for it based on classified intelligence the president and his advisers have that the officers have no access to or knowledge about. It's possible that that information is what makes the action a valid military operation and not a war crime. But the officers aren't going to delay carrying out the order while they consult their lawyers, who have no way of knowing the rationale or purpose behind the order.
This is what makes all of this very complicated. But we have to be very careful about expecting the military to assess and second-guess the orders of their civilian command. The key is not to demand the military protect us and the world from an irresponsible commander-in-chief - that's not their job - but to make sure we don't install irresponsible people in the position in the first place.
dware
(12,092 posts)I guess it would fall to the SecDef to determine if the order is illegal or not,
SecDef Esper has indicated as of this morning that bombing Iranian cultural sites and civilians is a war crime and it seems he would refuse to follow an order from the Mango Menace to implement it, and I'm fairly certain the JCS and on scene commanders would follow the SecDef and JCS recommendation not to follow it also.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It seems that the SecDef saw to it that the troops didn't have to decide whether to obey the order since he made clear he wouldn't convey the order in the first place.
KentuckyWoman
(6,666 posts)The Syndicate knows Mitch will protect them from any accountability. They are free to murder and rape and pillage at will. No one will stop them.
If anyone thought this horde would have even the smallest respect for the law they were idiots. They ran on the fact they had no respect ... the gloves are off now.
Edit to add it would seem any military leaders willing to stand up have already done so and retired rather than take orders. The only thing left now seem to be the yes men willing to help destroy the world.
Autumn
(44,743 posts)Bank it.
Nitram
(22,663 posts)cultural sites?