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jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 03:58 PM Jun 2020

Tearing down Confederate statues I can understand. But Ulysses S. Grant?

Okay, okay...Prewar Grant once owned a slave when he himself was dirt poor. I believe he inherited the slave from his father-in-law when he died. They both worked side-by-side in the same field Grant owned. Shortly thereafter, Grant freed the man. I know, that doesn't excuse owning another human being under any circumstances, but how about just a modicum of perspective here (I know, it's hard)?

Couldn't one at least make the argument that Grant more than atoned for his brief ownership of that one slave with his heroic and invaluable leadership for the Union during the Civil War, without which the Union may not have prevailed over the Confederacy?

I know I'm going to get pummeled for this, but if statues of Grant are now verboten, please, someone, take down Robert Byrd's statue in West Virginia. I know many here don't want to hear that because it's a favorite RW talking point, but even those a-holes are right about some things. Say what you will about Grant (and there certainly is room for criticism, as with all people, dead or alive) but at least he wasn't the grand cyclops of the KKK. If there's no redemption for Grant, who actively fought to end slavery and the evils of the Confederacy, there should not be any for Byrd either. We forgave Byrd because of (D) this. But Grant doesn't get a single brownie point for being instrumental in defeating the very evil we all claim to despise?

Please, someone explain this to me. What have I missed?

69 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Tearing down Confederate statues I can understand. But Ulysses S. Grant? (Original Post) jcmaine72 Jun 2020 OP
'We're' into tearing EVERYTHING down now, it seems. elleng Jun 2020 #1
In San Francisco someone last night defaced statues of poets and other non political figures In kimbutgar Jun 2020 #11
We may be in a situation where only from the ashes of oppression can we rebuild in equality. PTWB Jun 2020 #22
Maybe. elleng Jun 2020 #28
No pummeling at all. I agree completely. Recently read that Grant's autobiography is.... EarnestPutz Jun 2020 #2
The 3 part docudrama on tv recently was excellent. kimbutgar Jun 2020 #13
Very good MoonlitKnight Jun 2020 #35
He got obstructed by Congress kimbutgar Jun 2020 #37
Yep MoonlitKnight Jun 2020 #41
It was written Sgent Jun 2020 #52
Autobiography. EarnestPutz Jun 2020 #66
Clemmons was the Sgent Jun 2020 #67
Ta-Nahesi Coates wrote about this in "The Atlantic" and dismissed the question of.... EarnestPutz Jun 2020 #68
It is irrational, indeed. Music Man Jun 2020 #3
Do you know exactly who tore that particular statue down? Mariana Jun 2020 #4
I Could See That As A Counter Protest ProfessorGAC Jun 2020 #6
That's what I think. Mariana Jun 2020 #12
That is a blatantly dishonest portrayal of my post. jcmaine72 Jun 2020 #16
I Understand Your Reaction ProfessorGAC Jun 2020 #25
Are there any 100 foot plus statues of Confederates or the Founding Father's? Polybius Jun 2020 #5
This is starting to remind me of the Talban blowing up Raine Jun 2020 #7
This. Dial H For Hero Jun 2020 #19
We do seem to be moving sarisataka Jun 2020 #20
No historical figure or culture can live up to modern sensibilities Amishman Jun 2020 #50
How to lose friends and elections 101 superpatriotman Jun 2020 #8
+1 DTomlinson Jun 2020 #61
Sheesh Grant was anti-slave even though his wife's family wasn't. jmg257 Jun 2020 #9
Grants father was anti-slavery. His father-in-law owned slaves and his bride was... brush Jun 2020 #33
Ah thanks for the correction! jmg257 Jun 2020 #38
Actually, Grant's father was an abolitionist coti Jun 2020 #40
Might be people who don't know history and thought the statue was of a Confederate. Kaleva Jun 2020 #10
More likely that some Neo-Confederates knew exactly who it was Mariana Jun 2020 #14
Oh come on. tritsofme Jun 2020 #17
Never attribute to cunning zipplewrath Jun 2020 #18
That's what I was thinking. Aristus Jun 2020 #45
That might be but they should take a few minutes to look it up on the internet Raine Jun 2020 #51
The answer is, "NO." UncleTomsEvilBrother Jun 2020 #15
Dude launched an illegal war against the Lakota after trying paternalistic assimilationism. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #21
We shouldn't forget the hanging of 39 Dakota fighters Lincoln signed off on. Kaleva Jun 2020 #23
Absolutely. I posted about it last December, but there's never a bad time to remember it. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #26
AMEN PTWB Jun 2020 #24
When held to the standards of today. Kaleva Jun 2020 #27
Yes, when held to the standards of today. PTWB Jun 2020 #30
Tear down all monuments to FDR, then? Really? Dial H For Hero Jun 2020 #34
How about Lincoln who approved the execution of 39 Dakota Freedom Fighters? Kaleva Jun 2020 #36
What about him? PTWB Jun 2020 #39
The domination of our nation by some white males is our history. Kaleva Jun 2020 #42
No one is saying we shouldn't teach Lincoln's contribution. PTWB Jun 2020 #48
How about do something substantive about the lives of oppressed people rather than symbolic crap DTomlinson Jun 2020 #57
Why not do both? PTWB Jun 2020 #63
Tear down the enormous DC monument to arguably our coti Jun 2020 #47
Haha, nice. DTomlinson Jun 2020 #58
Did enslaved people have different standards than people do today? WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #49
He also helped win the Civil War and oversaw successful Reconstruction before it was rolled back. DTomlinson Jun 2020 #56
Maybe statues aren't the best way to tell the complicated history of someone's actions. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2020 #60
You are correct. Grant didn't buy the enslaved man, did work side by side with him in the field... brush Jun 2020 #29
I agree rockfordfile Jun 2020 #31
Someone is working hard to help us lose the November election. jalan48 Jun 2020 #32
Was it Grant who banned Jews from Kansas? (Edit: it was other states) ExciteBike66 Jun 2020 #43
Yes. the General Order was rescinded after a public outcry. Aristus Jun 2020 #46
Pretty well agreed, at least with regard to black civil rights coti Jun 2020 #44
When less than half of people can name one SC justice, I doubt many even know who the statues are MichMan Jun 2020 #53
All this statue toppling has brought me around to this... 2naSalit Jun 2020 #54
No. DTomlinson Jun 2020 #59
Yes. PTWB Jun 2020 #64
Aside from the Confederate statutes, this is symbolic nonsense/an excuse for vandalism. DTomlinson Jun 2020 #55
Well maybe we should make it against the law and arrest everybody! 2naSalit Jun 2020 #62
I suppose you think we should allow statues of Columbus to stand? PTWB Jun 2020 #65
This behavior is exactly why melm00se Jun 2020 #69

kimbutgar

(20,882 posts)
11. In San Francisco someone last night defaced statues of poets and other non political figures In
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:22 PM
Jun 2020

Golden Gate Park. I suspect it’s some right wingers who snuck into the Golden Gate park and did this to rile us up.

I can just hear some right winger, “you tear down my statues I’m taking down yours as revenge”.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
22. We may be in a situation where only from the ashes of oppression can we rebuild in equality.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:54 PM
Jun 2020

EarnestPutz

(2,086 posts)
2. No pummeling at all. I agree completely. Recently read that Grant's autobiography is....
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:04 PM
Jun 2020

....really good and have been wanting to read it. I wonder if this ownership of a slave is mentioned?

Music Man

(1,181 posts)
3. It is irrational, indeed.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:05 PM
Jun 2020

A legitimate movement to tear down icons of people who fought to preserve the institution of slavery easily begins to look cartoonish when this kind of stuff becomes part of the equation too.

Like you said, there's something to be said about celebrating the journey of people who emancipated their slaves and were on the side that fought the Confederacy. Grant was also at least president of the United States, not a part of a group that tried to secede and fight against it. That, more than anything, is why it's lunacy to put up statues of Confederates. They were literal traitors.

So I understand that tearing down statues of Grant, Jefferson, etc., is born out of a particularly passionate moment, but it's based on bad thinking about history. It is dumb.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
4. Do you know exactly who tore that particular statue down?
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:05 PM
Jun 2020

It would be much easier to figure out their motivations, if we knew exactly who did it.

ProfessorGAC

(64,425 posts)
6. I Could See That As A Counter Protest
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:08 PM
Jun 2020

"You take down Lee, we're taking down Grant!"
Seems realistic.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
12. That's what I think.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:22 PM
Jun 2020

Some Neo-Confederates could have done it, counting on the fact that people like the OP would blame the BLM protesters.

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
16. That is a blatantly dishonest portrayal of my post.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:31 PM
Jun 2020

Where did I blame BLM...or ANY GROUP specifically...for tearing down Grant's statue?

You know what? Don't even bother answering my question. I will simply block you. If I've learned anything during my 25 years or so on the internet it's that people who deliberately distort what other people write to the extent that you just did to me cannot be reasoned with under any circumstances.

Good bye.



ProfessorGAC

(64,425 posts)
25. I Understand Your Reaction
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:57 PM
Jun 2020

I do not agree with the post extrapolating it to your OP.
I was only agreeing that RWNJs might do this as a Confederate counter protest.
I do not see you as either gullible or anti BLM's message.
Just being clear.

Polybius

(15,238 posts)
5. Are there any 100 foot plus statues of Confederates or the Founding Father's?
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:07 PM
Jun 2020

How would they go about toppling them?

Raine

(30,540 posts)
7. This is starting to remind me of the Talban blowing up
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:10 PM
Jun 2020

those statues " those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it ".

Amishman

(5,541 posts)
50. No historical figure or culture can live up to modern sensibilities
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:53 PM
Jun 2020

If we want to erase all history that doesn't measure up, we will end up with nothing left.

I get wanting to remove Confederate monuments from prominent display in cities. We're going way past that and it's somewhat worrying

superpatriotman

(6,232 posts)
8. How to lose friends and elections 101
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:14 PM
Jun 2020

The stupidity and uselessness of wanton, mindless destruction are getting very hard for this Democrat to understand, defend or support.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
9. Sheesh Grant was anti-slave even though his wife's family wasn't.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:18 PM
Jun 2020

Last edited Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:19 PM - Edit history (1)

He freed the slave when he could have sold him, even though he was very poor at the time.

Stupid.

brush

(53,474 posts)
33. Grants father was anti-slavery. His father-in-law owned slaves and his bride was...
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:14 PM
Jun 2020

given the enslaved man. Grant freed him even though he could've gotten a lot of money for him. This was all just shown in the Grant documentary on the History channel.

coti

(4,612 posts)
40. Actually, Grant's father was an abolitionist
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:20 PM
Jun 2020

Grant married into a slave owning family. There was reportedly quite a bit of tension between the families about the issue. But Grant did work amongst the slaves on his wife's farm and even was made fun of by slavery-supporters for it.

But the one slave he ended up taking "ownership" over, he freed, of his own accord. That, on its own, says a LOT.

Not to mention he is arguably the person most responsible for the North winning the Civil War and slavery being outlawed (maybe next to Lincoln himself).

It may be that his history vis a vis blacks is quite different from how he treated Native Americans, though. But I think an awful lot of people need to answer for that.

Kaleva

(36,146 posts)
10. Might be people who don't know history and thought the statue was of a Confederate.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:20 PM
Jun 2020

Many of us can recognize Grant, Sherman, Sheriden, Hooker, Burnside, McClellan, Thomas, Lee, Jackson, Hood, Johnston, Stuart and others but some can't.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
14. More likely that some Neo-Confederates knew exactly who it was
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:26 PM
Jun 2020

and seized the opportunity to destroy it, and get it blamed on others.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
18. Never attribute to cunning
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:37 PM
Jun 2020

that which can be explained by stupidity.

My first guess would be it was someone who didn't know their history.

Aristus

(66,095 posts)
45. That's what I was thinking.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:29 PM
Jun 2020

They all had facial hair, and they all had stars on their uniforms, even majors and colonels. It's easy to get confused. Although I am allowing for the possibility that this was a counter-protest by General Lee supporters.

Raine

(30,540 posts)
51. That might be but they should take a few minutes to look it up on the internet
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 06:00 PM
Jun 2020

before destroying something and looking like an ignoramus and tainting the cause.

15. The answer is, "NO."
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:29 PM
Jun 2020

No, if he "owned" another individual, there is no atonement. Think about how you sound when you say he "worked side-by-side in the same field." You've effectively reduced this human being to a "working animal" and nothing else.

This enslaved person had the psychological burden of being an owned individual regardless of the "owner" working next to him. What if the enslaved person's desire to sit home and not work for Grant? What if the enslaved person didn't want to work at all. What of his dreams? Desires to love? Those simple human rights were still taken from him by Grant.


"We" didn't forgive Byrd. A political party forgave Byrd.

The sooner we understand that this current movement operates outside of the political stratosphere, the sooner we'll start understanding the pain that Black people have had to endure since reaching the shores of this country.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,145 posts)
21. Dude launched an illegal war against the Lakota after trying paternalistic assimilationism.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:52 PM
Jun 2020

We can do better.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
24. AMEN
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 04:56 PM
Jun 2020

Few of our founding fathers and historic military figures can withstand even a cursory examination of their beliefs and record.

It is past time to move forward outside of the omnipresent gaze of monuments to white men.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
30. Yes, when held to the standards of today.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:11 PM
Jun 2020

Do you think it makes the young black teenager feel better knowing that his school was named after a slaveholder who was actually a good man judging by standards 200+ years ago?

It is well past time we tore down every monument, renamed every military base and school, and removed every glorification of every white man who enabled oppression.

I am not advocating we ignore the history, not at all. We need to do a much better job of teaching our young people exactly how terrible and flawed our founding fathers were, in addition to teaching the roles they played in the birth of our nation.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
39. What about him?
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:19 PM
Jun 2020

Rename the schools. Replace the monuments. Teach about his wonderful actions right alongside his terrible ones.

It is time to move on from our history of white male supremacy.

Kaleva

(36,146 posts)
42. The domination of our nation by some white males is our history.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:24 PM
Jun 2020

That cannot be ignored unless one wants to falsify our past.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
48. No one is saying we shouldn't teach Lincoln's contribution.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:44 PM
Jun 2020

But we should not maintain these monuments to flawed white men, especially not when the oppression of blacks, women, native Americans and other persons of color continue.

Teach about them. Don’t worship them. Don’t force minorities to live under their white shadows.

 

DTomlinson

(411 posts)
57. How about do something substantive about the lives of oppressed people rather than symbolic crap
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 06:45 PM
Jun 2020

like this.

This will backfire, I guarantee it.

coti

(4,612 posts)
47. Tear down the enormous DC monument to arguably our
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:37 PM
Jun 2020

best President who himself emancipated and won a war to free the slaves, then promptly gave up his very life as a result of that.

Wow. You must be the purest soul on DU. I prostrate myself before your grace.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,145 posts)
49. Did enslaved people have different standards than people do today?
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:46 PM
Jun 2020

Do the tribes and nations of North America?

 

DTomlinson

(411 posts)
56. He also helped win the Civil War and oversaw successful Reconstruction before it was rolled back.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 06:43 PM
Jun 2020

So...

brush

(53,474 posts)
29. You are correct. Grant didn't buy the enslaved man, did work side by side with him in the field...
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:10 PM
Jun 2020

and then freed him even though he was told he could get a lot of money for him.

Grant also wouldn't allow surrendering confederates to keep their slaves. He allowed them to keep their horses and sidearms but not their slaves.

Grant was decent man, and the best general of the Civil War.

Aristus

(66,095 posts)
46. Yes. the General Order was rescinded after a public outcry.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:31 PM
Jun 2020

Grant admitted in his memoir that it was one of the worst mistakes of his life.

coti

(4,612 posts)
44. Pretty well agreed, at least with regard to black civil rights
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 05:26 PM
Jun 2020

You're not going to find many out there who did as much to empower black Americans as Grant.

Wouldn't be that surprising if people had other issues with him, though.

MichMan

(11,789 posts)
53. When less than half of people can name one SC justice, I doubt many even know who the statues are
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 06:32 PM
Jun 2020

other than some old white guy on a horse etc. They see news clips of others doing it and just want to vandalize something themselves.

2naSalit

(86,056 posts)
54. All this statue toppling has brought me around to this...
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 06:36 PM
Jun 2020

it's a fucking statue, tear them all down, maybe that's really a cathartic thing we need right now. Perhaps it will help us focus on our future rather than trying to live up to a mythical past all the time. We can keep the form of government, sans corruption, it works pretty well. We could do with a major shift in our social culture though.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
65. I suppose you think we should allow statues of Columbus to stand?
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 07:49 PM
Jun 2020

After all, Columbus was no confederate.

As far as I’m concerned we can tear down every statue and monument that celebrates white privilege and the whitewashing of our oppressive history.

melm00se

(4,974 posts)
69. This behavior is exactly why
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 08:41 AM
Jun 2020

violent revolutions need to be avoided.

The actions of the mob, in some cases based upon ignorance, very quickly attain legitimacy.

As mentioned above: old dead white guy statute = (out of ignorance) must be a racist.

Here it is Grant.
A week or so ago it was a 19th century abolitionist in Philly.

Additionally, for those who claim that there can be no atonement: If all it takes is a single misstep to be damned, the world will be devoid of people.

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