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Tom Petty's family upset Trump used song - send blistering letter. (Original Post) Drunken Irishman Jun 2020 OP
Big K and R Ferrets are Cool Jun 2020 #1
I will never understand trixie2 Jun 2020 #2
They know. They just don't care. Nevilledog Jun 2020 #7
Not true..... USALiberal Jun 2020 #20
And the arena has to pay those fees yearly... Blue_playwright Jun 2020 #26
That's not how it works. nt. druidity33 Jun 2020 #40
How much you want to be they never paid the fee grantcart Jun 2020 #27
Copyrights Roy Rolling Jun 2020 #37
This Is Pretty Widespread DallasNE Jun 2020 #36
I love the music of Tom Petty and I hate that trump even tried to hijack his music! FM123 Jun 2020 #3
I miss Tom Petty so much Ahpook Jun 2020 #10
As a diehard Petty fan ... rustysgurl Jun 2020 #4
Cease and desist for publically performed music Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #11
You think they asked? sheshe2 Jun 2020 #14
If they didn't, Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #17
Pretty sure you need to re-read my post. sheshe2 Jun 2020 #23
Sorry - that was the premise of the sub-thread Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #25
Thanks for the apology. sheshe2 Jun 2020 #28
The gist of my response is the same. Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #31
Your links are for copywrite laws. sheshe2 Jun 2020 #33
It seemed to me that your point was he doesn't pay his bills - Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #35
Just like he stiffed the contractors that worked on his developments. NoRoadUntravelled Jun 2020 #24
That to, NRU. sheshe2 Jun 2020 #29
Like the Trump campaign cut a check to ASCAP dflprincess Jun 2020 #16
If it didn't, Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #21
I think that the venue itself may also pay a blanket fee to the PROs... GReedDiamond Jun 2020 #30
Venues that frequently publically perform music often do have a license Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #32
Could not rebe303 Jun 2020 #39
K&R ooky Jun 2020 #5
It's a disrespect to Tom Petty and his legacy. 😡 herding cats Jun 2020 #6
Agreed. Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #12
Very true. herding cats Jun 2020 #19
Unfortunately, Ms. Toad Jun 2020 #8
Thank You, Tom Petty's Family! Wonderful statement of Inclusiveness! Cha Jun 2020 #9
music is licensed by an ASCAP license..... Takket Jun 2020 #13
Hard to be sure who controls the interest, isn't it? Alex4Martinez Jun 2020 #18
Still difficult to believe Tom is gone Yeehah Jun 2020 #15
They also played videohead5 Jun 2020 #22
And right after that they played Tiny Dancer Susan Calvin Jun 2020 #42
Is it petty of me to find it amusing for iq45*to be on the receiving end of a cease and desist niyad Jun 2020 #34
after won't back down they played the stones "she's a rainbow" orleans Jun 2020 #38
Of Course I Agree With the Sentiment Roy Rolling Jun 2020 #41
Maybe they should appropriate something from, like Beck... Perhaps use... Pluvious Jun 2020 #43

trixie2

(905 posts)
2. I will never understand
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 10:31 PM
Jun 2020

Why someone running for president doesn't know about the theft of intellectual property.

Blue_playwright

(1,568 posts)
26. And the arena has to pay those fees yearly...
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 11:22 PM
Jun 2020

... so I think he was in the right legally in a venue. In a commercial it would be different.

Roy Rolling

(6,853 posts)
37. Copyrights
Sun Jun 21, 2020, 12:40 AM
Jun 2020

The campaign has no legal right to use the song. The Arena doesn’t pay a blanket fee allowing any performer on their stage to perform any song they wish.
Unless copyright law has changed, the Trump campaign is guilty of theft. Again.

DallasNE

(7,392 posts)
36. This Is Pretty Widespread
Sun Jun 21, 2020, 12:38 AM
Jun 2020

And it rankles the artists. My then brother in law was a musician and released an album several months before the 1988 Winter Olympics in Canada and ABC sports played his music as background and ABC made no attempt to contact him or to pay the going needle drop fee. The amount would not have been that great so it is more the theft aspect that leaves the artist feeling violated.

FM123

(10,050 posts)
3. I love the music of Tom Petty and I hate that trump even tried to hijack his music!
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 10:32 PM
Jun 2020

Actually, that should be OUR song!

Ahpook

(2,747 posts)
10. I miss Tom Petty so much
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 10:38 PM
Jun 2020

I never appreciated this song until I saw Jeff Lynne a few years ago. What a blast

rustysgurl

(1,040 posts)
4. As a diehard Petty fan ...
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 10:32 PM
Jun 2020

... I am happy they jumped on this so quickly. But he hasn't listened to other cease & desists, so I don't know how effective this will be.

He is such a POS. Why couldn't he have died instead of Tom???

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
11. Cease and desist for publically performed music
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 10:39 PM
Jun 2020

generally aren't worth a dime. Most are licensed via a performing rights organization - and all anyone has to do to get permission to publically perform the music is to pay the appropriate fees to the appropriate entity (in this case, ASCAP)

sheshe2

(83,324 posts)
14. You think they asked?
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 10:54 PM
Jun 2020

You think they paid a fee to use that song? Trump owes states hundreds of thousands for his rallies and never pays.

WHY THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN WON’T PAY POLICE BILLS

Ten city governments from Arizona to Pennsylvania say the president’s political committee has stiffed them out of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This story was published in partnership with NBC News and CNBC.

INTRODUCTION
“Do we love law enforcement or what?” President Donald Trump asked a cheering crowd during his “Make America Great Again” political rally Oct. 12 in Lebanon, Ohio.

“Thank you, law enforcement!” the president later told officers, who he called “heroes.”

But when Lebanon City Hall sent Trump’s campaign a $16,191 invoice for police and other public safety costs associated with his event, Trump didn’t respond. Trump’s campaign likewise ignored Lebanon officials’ follow-up reminders to cover the sum — one rich enough to fund the entire police force for nearly two days in this modest city of 21,000, between Dayton and Cincinnati.

The bill remains unpaid.

“There’s a lot of benefit when a president comes here: economic benefits, more visibility for our community,” Lebanon Mayor Amy Brewer said. “But I would hope and believe the Trump campaign would pay its bills. It’s our taxpayer dollars.”

Read More https://publicintegrity.org/politics/donald-trump-police-cities-bills-maga-rallies/

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
17. If they didn't,
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 11:05 PM
Jun 2020

the cease and desist would come from the PRO, not the creator. They are the ones charged with enforcing the rights as part of the deal that allows them to license them to the public.

Since you refernced prior cease and desists by creators I assumed that you, like most people, don't understand how the public performance system works.

Since the BOK arena is used for music performances, they almost certainly have licenses with ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC. The fees for use of the collections are almost certainly part of the fee for use of the arena.

As public as disputes about Trump use of music have been, had his campaign been using music without playing royalties they would have sued. (I've defended clients on the receiving end of ASCP litigation - clients who were not even directly responsible, but were closely enough tied to the offending party that they were going after my clients simply to coerce the payment. ASCAP is very aggressive.)

(I've licensed music from BMI and SESAC on behalf of clients. But I have not been on the receiving end of an attack - so I don't now how aggressive they are. But ASCAP has the largest collection and I know some of the music subject to condemnation by the creators is in the ASCAP collection.)

sheshe2

(83,324 posts)
23. Pretty sure you need to re-read my post.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 11:18 PM
Jun 2020

Since you refernced prior cease and desists by creators I assumed that you, like most people, don't understand how the public performance system works.


I did not do any of that. My only comment on the song was:

You think they asked?

You think they paid a fee to use that song?


………………………...…....

The rest of my post to you was about: Which of course you did not answer,

rump owes states hundreds of thousands for his rallies and never pays.

WHY THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN WON’T PAY POLICE BILLS

Ten city governments from Arizona to Pennsylvania say the president’s political committee has stiffed them out of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This story was published in partnership with NBC News and CNBC.

INTRODUCTION
“Do we love law enforcement or what?” President Donald Trump asked a cheering crowd during his “Make America Great Again” political rally Oct. 12 in Lebanon, Ohio.

“Thank you, law enforcement!” the president later told officers, who he called “heroes.”

But when Lebanon City Hall sent Trump’s campaign a $16,191 invoice for police and other public safety costs associated with his event, Trump didn’t respond. Trump’s campaign likewise ignored Lebanon officials’ follow-up reminders to cover the sum — one rich enough to fund the entire police force for nearly two days in this modest city of 21,000, between Dayton and Cincinnati.

The bill remains unpaid.

“There’s a lot of benefit when a president comes here: economic benefits, more visibility for our community,” Lebanon Mayor Amy Brewer said. “But I would hope and believe the Trump campaign would pay its bills. It’s our taxpayer dollars.”

Read More https://publicintegrity.org/politics/donald-trump-police-cities-bills-maga-rallies/

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
25. Sorry - that was the premise of the sub-thread
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 11:21 PM
Jun 2020

I didn't check the name to make sure I was still talking to the same person.

sheshe2

(83,324 posts)
28. Thanks for the apology.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 11:35 PM
Jun 2020

Much appreciated, yet still no comment on the basis of my post. The theft from states.

Fact is trump takes what he pleases and everyone else be damned. Trump steals from everyone. Songs from Tom Petty and the Rolling Stones. Songs, beautiful songs from our youth and he uses them for evil. He stole from a bogus University and a bogus charity. Everything he does is to enrich himself.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
31. The gist of my response is the same.
Sun Jun 21, 2020, 12:11 AM
Jun 2020

If the arena doesn't have a licensee, and he doesn't pay royalties to ASCAP it will come after him. In my personal experience working on behalf of clients, ASCAP is very aggressive - even to the point of going after the wrong entity if it believes they can coerce the wrong entity to give up the right one.

In most instances, event spaces that hold public performances have licenses - and they embed those fees in the agreement with entities like the Trump campaign. Since there haven't been publicized complaints about ASCAP suing Trump, either he is paying the fees - or can use them by arrangement with the event spaces.

Unfortunately, musical creators (like Tom Petty and the Rolling Stones) make a deal with the devil. They don't have much choice. They can either do all the licensing work themselves (lose royalties, but keep control over who plays their music) - or they grant those rights to one of the performing rights orgnanizations (ASCAP being the biggest, BMI the next biggest, and SESAC being the smallest). Once the rights are granted, they get lots more royalties and big muscle to enforce copyright, but they no longer have control over who publically performs their works.

It stinks, and Trump is morally corrupt for this, and many more reasons. But as immoral as it is, as long as the license fees are paid, Petty's familiy and the Rolling Stones generally can't legally prevent him from publically performing their works. [And, as public as the complaints have been, ASCAP would have noticed if it was not being paid royalties - they are a litigation machine.) A decent human being would respect the artists's wishes, but we all know Trump is not a decent human being.

ASCAP litigation (just a sampling of the top hits in a quick google search - I'd find pages and pages if I went into PACER - the federal docketing system):
https://pitchfork.com/news/ascap-hit-multiple-us-bars-with-copyright-lawsuits/
https://www.peninsuladailynews.com/news/ascap-sues-peninsula-bar-for-copyright-infringement/
https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/1357304/ascap-files-24-copyright-infringement-suits

sheshe2

(83,324 posts)
33. Your links are for copywrite laws.
Sun Jun 21, 2020, 12:18 AM
Jun 2020

What does that have to do with paying for police and security at events?

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
35. It seemed to me that your point was he doesn't pay his bills -
Sun Jun 21, 2020, 12:37 AM
Jun 2020

what makes me think he would pay fees to ASCAP.

You think they asked?

You think they paid a fee to use that song?


Which I've explained - ASCAP would have sued his campaign if the fees aren't paid directly, or indirectly.

Police and security aren't in the business of litigation. They are not geared up with template complaints that they can file with perhaps two hour's worth of work - the way ASCAP is. And the ligitation itself will be a one-off, since most entities pay their bills. Anytime you do something for the first (or one of a few) times, there is a significant hurdle to overcome before it is worth it to assert your rights in court.

In contrast, filing suits is a substantial portion of what ASCAP does. I doubt it takes much more than 2 hours to prepare and file a new complaint. They have a systematic way of gathering information so it can easily be dumped into the appropriate court documents largely through form fields. It's no big deal for them to litigate. The cost of defending (when you have not defended a royalty case before) is significantly more than the cost of settling - so most people settle. It's a pretty lucrative business.

Since ASCAP hasn't sued him that I can find, and his use is very public, I can pretty much guarantee the fees are getting paid (whether or not he is paying anyone else he owes). ASCAP would have sued if they weren't getting paid. It's what they do. It's not what police and security do.

NoRoadUntravelled

(2,626 posts)
24. Just like he stiffed the contractors that worked on his developments.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 11:20 PM
Jun 2020

He destroyed businesses that had been family run for years.

sheshe2

(83,324 posts)
29. That to, NRU.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 11:47 PM
Jun 2020

Just like he stiffed the American people. He made a promise to all America.

He failed us.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
21. If it didn't,
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 11:09 PM
Jun 2020

ASCAP will come knocking. They are extremely aggressive, as some of my former far less famous clients can attest.

Many of the venues likely have comprehensive licenses (my guess is that BOK does, since it is a concert venue). In those instances, the licensing fees are incuded in the venue fees.

In any event, it would be ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC that would have the right to go after the Trump campaign, not the creator.

GReedDiamond

(5,299 posts)
30. I think that the venue itself may also pay a blanket fee to the PROs...
Sun Jun 21, 2020, 12:00 AM
Jun 2020

...that may cover an event like Trump's Klan rally, so they may play whatever by whoever, and it's covered.

I heard "You Can't Always Get What You Want" in the background while a CNN reporter described the situation as the "crowd" was leaving the arena.

I remember in the past the Stones sending Twitler cease and desist letters, yet the fuckhead persists.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
32. Venues that frequently publically perform music often do have a license
Sun Jun 21, 2020, 12:14 AM
Jun 2020

That is my assumption for the BOK arena, and most of the campaign venues.

Unfortunately - the right to demand he cease and desist generally belongs to the PRO, so the Stones' letter was more to publically disassociate themselves from him than to actually get him to stop. (Although a decent human being would.)

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
12. Agreed.
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 10:40 PM
Jun 2020

Unfortunately, even though it is disrespectful and immoral, it isn't illegal as long as he pays the appropriate fees to ASCAP.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
8. Unfortunately,
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 10:37 PM
Jun 2020

That song is in the ASCAP repertory - so all he has to do is pay the appropriate ASCAP fees.

Takket

(21,424 posts)
13. music is licensed by an ASCAP license.....
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 10:48 PM
Jun 2020

Some reading I just did........... The license covers an entire catalogue of songs but an artist can request a specific song be excluded from use by a campaign. I hope the Petty family did that.........

ASCAP FAQ
https://www.ascap.com/help/ascap-licensing

Campaign usage:
https://www.ascap.com/~/media/files/pdf/advocacy-legislation/political_campaign.pdf

Alex4Martinez

(2,180 posts)
18. Hard to be sure who controls the interest, isn't it?
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 11:06 PM
Jun 2020

Here's the page, I don't know that the Petty family owns the rights or not, or has a majority interest:

https://www.ascap.com/repertory#ace/search/workID/390463828

videohead5

(2,150 posts)
22. They also played
Sat Jun 20, 2020, 11:18 PM
Jun 2020

You can't always get what you want. The Rolling Stones has warned them before but the just ignore the warnings.

orleans

(33,986 posts)
38. after won't back down they played the stones "she's a rainbow"
Sun Jun 21, 2020, 12:41 AM
Jun 2020

and some version of linkin park's "the end"

Roy Rolling

(6,853 posts)
41. Of Course I Agree With the Sentiment
Sun Jun 21, 2020, 09:21 AM
Jun 2020

But seriously, copyright infringement is the least egregious of Trump’s crimes. He’s a walking, one-man crime spree. I love Tom Petty, but I won’t let the Trump campaign make me into an example of a grieving liberal. Fuck them, they won’t ever get the satisfaction of seeing me frustrated. The only face the will see of me is of a burning sun consuming their tiny candle of an idea.

Pluvious

(4,276 posts)
43. Maybe they should appropriate something from, like Beck... Perhaps use...
Sun Jun 21, 2020, 09:17 PM
Jun 2020
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
Butane in my veins so I'm out to cut the junkie

Yo.
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