Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 07:54 AM Jun 2020

There are wolves among the sheep.

I find it hard to believe that there are bona fide non-provocateurs who believe that pulling down statues of men who were in no way associated with the Civil War accomplishes anything beyond furnishing attack points for the Trump campaign.

Of course, the monuments and statues glorifying Confederate officers and Klansmen should come down.

Of course, the military bases named for traitors should be renamed.

But, destroying statues of men like Washington and Jefferson because they were white wealthy slave-owners over two centuries ago is---stupid. Expect to hear of it in Trump ads and speeches and expect it to push Deplorables to the polls who may have stayed home had the "radical unAmerican leftists" not assaulted "the Father of our Country, fer cryin' out loud!"

27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
There are wolves among the sheep. (Original Post) Atticus Jun 2020 OP
This morning in Madison WI two non confederate statues destroyed live love laugh Jun 2020 #1
yes, I have difficulty understanding who could think it's a good idea myself ms liberty Jun 2020 #2
One word: Anarchists Jake Stern Jun 2020 #3
Are you sure it isn't Antifa? Socialist Alternative? maxsolomon Jun 2020 #22
I'm far more inclined to believe it's anarchists Jake Stern Jun 2020 #24
Well, I agree it's unlikely it's RW Provocateurs. maxsolomon Jun 2020 #26
K and R... Stuart G Jun 2020 #4
On both sides unfortunately. HotTeaBag Jun 2020 #5
I don't see empirical reports of coordinated among the left but no doubt on the right. not similar uponit7771 Jun 2020 #8
The destruction is the same. HotTeaBag Jun 2020 #17
True but in this context it matters who does it I don't see coordinated destruction among the left uponit7771 Jun 2020 #19
I can easily see it. Igel Jun 2020 #6
Best description yet of this phenomenon hardluck Jun 2020 #10
The "protesters", anarchists, angry progressives Sugarcoated Jun 2020 #7
It has always been the case Nature Man Jun 2020 #9
provacateurs from the dark side. librechik Jun 2020 #11
The idea that everything you approve of was done by your people, while everything you don't greenjar_01 Jun 2020 #12
Ratcheting someone's opinion out to illogical extremes,---("everything"?)---may be convenient, Atticus Jun 2020 #13
Fair criticism greenjar_01 Jun 2020 #14
I am sure there are some in each category. IMHO, though, most of the "instigators" are not Atticus Jun 2020 #16
I concur. maxsolomon Jun 2020 #23
I think I'm going to start trashing statue threads JonLP24 Jun 2020 #15
Sheep? NurseJackie Jun 2020 #18
I hate to say it but there are stupid people out there. Tipperary Jun 2020 #20
Or someone could be screwing with us. Initech Jun 2020 #21
Could be. nt Tipperary Jun 2020 #27
This Is The Lunatic Fringe In Madison, Sir The Magistrate Jun 2020 #25

live love laugh

(13,003 posts)
1. This morning in Madison WI two non confederate statues destroyed
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 08:00 AM
Jun 2020

Democratic rep attempted to take pictures and was attacked by the protesters. (ABC morning news)

It’s really not necessary to guess which side the protesters are on.



ms liberty

(8,479 posts)
2. yes, I have difficulty understanding who could think it's a good idea myself
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 08:44 AM
Jun 2020

Flawed as they were, they also left the framework to change and right the wrongs in the system they created. It does nothing but give the RWNJ's ammunition.

Jake Stern

(3,145 posts)
3. One word: Anarchists
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 10:11 AM
Jun 2020

The MO of these jackasses is to glom onto any kind of left leaning large scale movement and use it as a vehicle to further their objectives.

Those objectives seem to consist solely of breaking shit and sowing chaos.

I implore BLM: these are NOT your allies and you need to speak out against them. They don’t really give a fuck about George or Breonna, anarchists just use them as an excuse to destroy.

maxsolomon

(32,989 posts)
22. Are you sure it isn't Antifa? Socialist Alternative?
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 02:59 PM
Jun 2020

Anarchists, actual Black-Bloc, John Zerzan-reading Anarchists, are an incredibly small subset of these protestors, and they're concentrated in the PNW, not Madison WI. they also haven't made a public-communique peep during these protests (nor has Antifa, really).

The gal who torched police SUVs in Seattle? Maybe an Anarchist; she hasn't said.

The people who pulled down the Hans Heg statue? Occam's Razor tells me they're poorly-informed BLM Protestors who are lashing out at any monuments associated with the Civil War or the Patriarchy. Why would Anarchists want Hans Heg's statue down, anyway?

Can you share any sources for your assertion?

Jake Stern

(3,145 posts)
24. I'm far more inclined to believe it's anarchists
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 03:43 PM
Jun 2020

Or poseur wannabes doing this than the idea that far right infiltrators are going city to city destroying statues that BLM wants torn down anyway just to make the movement look bad.

maxsolomon

(32,989 posts)
26. Well, I agree it's unlikely it's RW Provocateurs.
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 03:52 PM
Jun 2020

If there are Anarchists, they're not leading these protests. The leadership and strategizing is explicitly from Black voices.

At least in my limited experience participating in them.

 

HotTeaBag

(1,206 posts)
5. On both sides unfortunately.
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 10:21 AM
Jun 2020

There are also wolves among the sheep on the Left who have a passing interest in the issues that the sheep are protesting but have far more interest in simply breaking shit and causing trouble.

It's not just right-wing infiltrators, though they do exist.

uponit7771

(90,225 posts)
19. True but in this context it matters who does it I don't see coordinated destruction among the left
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 02:48 PM
Jun 2020

... it's no doubt white supremacist Trump a line assholes who are doing it in a coordinated fashion on the right

Otherwise there's going to be exceptions I'm not going to allow the exceptions to override the movement against police violence

Igel

(35,196 posts)
6. I can easily see it.
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 10:42 AM
Jun 2020

I think, "The question is whether they're traitors to the idea of the country."

They've been taught, "They're traitors to the idea of anti-racism and equality, to the idea of feeling safe and upholding the morality that the arc of history is bending to." They may not put in all those bits. But one of the Grant-dethroners just knew that Grant owned at least one slave, and that to honor his acceptance and support of slavery was offensive. He didn't appear to be making this up or lying--surely he'd have done a better job.

That means you've nailed exactly *why* the statues must come down. Wealthy. Slave-owners. Who were white, therefore privileged; male, therefore privileged (I assume they *don't* usually know that white male non-propertied had fewer rights than those with property). (Had they been black slave owners--something not likely to be ever made into a statue in the US--I don't have a prediction as to their down-pulled status. However, people seem to praise the empires and ethnicities that engaged in slaving, so I'm going to bail on that speculation.)

These aren't provocateurs. They're the righteous of the righteous, those who are leading the way and being gutsy in imposing their virtuous views on a sinful congregation. ("Mabels," my word for them, based on the self-styled "teacher of self-righteousness" posse in my old church. "Scolds" is a term others have used. Politruk was the Soviet term for those paid for this function. "Vanguard" was the Soviet term for such outside the formal power structure, so Pravda would be called these "provocateurs" the "vanguard of American progressive youth". Put them in power and the leader will be a neo-Stalin, neo-Hitler, neo-Mao, neo-Pol "Phem" Pot. Yes, they'd disagree. But if you'd asked any of them as they were "revolutioneering" if they'd be judged badly, they'd have laughed and averred their superior goodness.)

Sugarcoated

(7,707 posts)
7. The "protesters", anarchists, angry progressives
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 10:47 AM
Jun 2020

whoever they are, they're working overtime to hand this election to crooked Donnie

librechik

(30,663 posts)
11. provacateurs from the dark side.
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 11:02 AM
Jun 2020

Now people will thinks the innocent protesters are mean and stupid.

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
12. The idea that everything you approve of was done by your people, while everything you don't
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 11:07 AM
Jun 2020

was done by infiltrators is comforting, but ultimately silly. There are stupid people doing stupid things in every social movement. Last night's activities in Madison were particularly cringe. Fobbing it off on provocateurs is just wishful thinking.

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
13. Ratcheting someone's opinion out to illogical extremes,---("everything"?)---may be convenient,
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 11:14 AM
Jun 2020

but is ultimately simply disingenuous.

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
14. Fair criticism
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 11:16 AM
Jun 2020

Still, it's also fair to consider that this incident is just folks on our side acting stupid. It's as plausible if not more plausible than falling back on provocateurs.

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
16. I am sure there are some in each category. IMHO, though, most of the "instigators" are not
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 11:33 AM
Jun 2020

"our people", but some of our people, sadly, participate in the silliness.

maxsolomon

(32,989 posts)
23. I concur.
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 03:02 PM
Jun 2020

The protestors are quite capable of doing stupid, self-sabotaging shit. In fact, it is inevitable.

 

Tipperary

(6,930 posts)
20. I hate to say it but there are stupid people out there.
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 02:50 PM
Jun 2020

Who probably have no idea what statues are which.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
25. This Is The Lunatic Fringe In Madison, Sir
Wed Jun 24, 2020, 03:48 PM
Jun 2020

Others of this ilk are probably salted through other crowds....

https://www.nbc15.com/2020/06/24/this-is-a-revolutionary-fight-demonstrators-issue-demands-the-morning-after-violent-protests-statues-toppled/

The morning after day-long protests turned violent, ending in property damage, two landmark statues being toppled, and an alleged attack on a state senator, a spokesperson who said she represented “a united front of organizers and activists for black liberation” issued a series of demands.

The spokesperson, Ebony Anderson-Carter, said she was speaking on behalf of multiple groups. In her statement, she said they were demanding the release of the man whose arrest Tuesday afternoon triggered the protests. The groups also demanded a Madison Police Department officer be fired and that the department itself be defunded and the money be “reallocated to the community.”

Anderson-Carter went on to describe the groups’ efforts as “a revolutionary fight” for human rights on behalf of all oppressed people.
Advertisement

“Please don’t take the actions out here as violence. Please don’t take that actions out here as misconstrued either,” she urged. “Take these actions as voices.”

Anderson-Carter concluded by saying the groups were asking for a dialogue.



The person arrested was reported to be walking through a restaurant with a baseball bat and a bull-horn, declaring he was disrupting the place.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»There are wolves among th...