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jimlup

(7,968 posts)
Tue Jul 14, 2020, 11:52 PM Jul 2020

So a close friend is a tRumper and I don't understand it...

We are both disaffected white males. Me - I'm a far left Bernie supporting radical who recognizes that Biden is the play.

He's totally deluded with the "both sides do it" argument and the

Trump is the anti-war candidate.

Help me with this. tRump fucking almost started a war with both N. Korea and Iran and it was only by a razor magin that it didn't happen that way.

I know I can't manage to get to vote for Joe but how do I manage to get him to vote 3rd party? I tried the Mount Rushmore Video... no result so far. He lives in Ohio so it would be nice to not have that tRump vote.

And, worse, it may destroy our friendship. Damn! We are both Ph.D. physicists and honestly, I can't really grasp where he is. Apparently, an alternative quantum reality.

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So a close friend is a tRumper and I don't understand it... (Original Post) jimlup Jul 2020 OP
Ask him if he supports Trump's cruelty. Happy Hoosier Jul 2020 #1
Could his reason be that he is a racist MLAA Jul 2020 #3
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! /nt spudspud Jul 2020 #30
In my experience, that is often the case... Happy Hoosier Jul 2020 #37
Uh pretty sure all of that is a huge part of the draw for trump supporters BannonsLiver Jul 2020 #44
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2020 #2
Trump is not the anti war candidate. He is all for civil war. cayugafalls Jul 2020 #4
There's your problem in a nutshell... Wounded Bear Jul 2020 #5
You Gotta Know When To Hold 'Em, Know When To Fold 'Em sfstaxprep Jul 2020 #6
Trump may start a war with China before the election. iemitsu Jul 2020 #7
A PhD in physics and a Trump supporter? SpaceNeedle Jul 2020 #8
Hmmm uponit7771 Jul 2020 #19
Not a trump supporter - Ms. Toad Jul 2020 #25
Socialists sometimes choose 0% when they could have had 97% of what they wanted SpaceNeedle Jul 2020 #49
Not a socialist, either. n/t Ms. Toad Jul 2020 #50
Republicanism (or 'Conservativism') isn't exclusive to 'low income, low education' voters. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2020 #26
It's not about being "anti-war." There is something else going on with your friend. Laffy Kat Jul 2020 #9
Clearly, getting an advanced degree in physics PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 2020 #10
It's surprising that a physicist, a scientist, would be for an illogical... brush Jul 2020 #11
Like a distinguished, hard-wired Christian fundamentalist neuroscientist, Hortensis Jul 2020 #36
People are strange is right. Trying to reconciling the logic of the scientific method... brush Jul 2020 #42
Amazingly, not at all, tho! I couldn't "feel" how it would be Hortensis Jul 2020 #45
The "Or something" at the end of your first paragraph says it all. brush Jul 2020 #46
Besides the obvious, like 130,500 dead, does he wear a mask? rusty quoin Jul 2020 #12
Maybe he's anti taxes? If he makes a good salary, maybe he doesn't want to pay taxes? Bluepinky Jul 2020 #13
South Dakota will pay off next week lame54 Jul 2020 #14
Is Donald Trump anti-science? The data says yes Celerity Jul 2020 #15
Being a Trumper is very unusual for a scientist! Buckeye_Democrat Jul 2020 #16
Yes and yes ... jimlup Jul 2020 #40
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2020 #17
I agree larwdem Jul 2020 #22
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2020 #23
know how you feel Chili Jul 2020 #18
Don't try to understand it. Xolodno Jul 2020 #20
Tell him Trump is at war with The American People... GReedDiamond Jul 2020 #21
Interesting tables! burrowowl Jul 2020 #24
TRump is anti war Hamlette Jul 2020 #27
I could never be "close friends" with a Trumper. SunSeeker Jul 2020 #28
Tell him when you try to observe his politics it becomes impossible to observe his humanity... Lucky Luciano Jul 2020 #29
Does he remember that time when all of Hawaii got that "incoming" text alert? renate Jul 2020 #31
I laughed at this but it was a cynical, nervous laughter. ms liberty Jul 2020 #32
If he refuses to see what's square in front of his face... Mister Ed Jul 2020 #33
It's all about RACISM Goodheart Jul 2020 #34
Is he an actual MAGAt or a high-dudgeon lefty in full "I cannot even!" mode? JHB Jul 2020 #35
A third party POTUS vote in *OHIO* irisblue Jul 2020 #38
They don't feel Trump gets a fair shake Johnny2X2X Jul 2020 #39
Thanks everyone! jimlup Jul 2020 #41
Seems to me you need to find out what it is he really OregonBlue Jul 2020 #43
Yes and I think I am perhaps afraid of the answer... jimlup Jul 2020 #47
So be it. Sad, but do you really need "friends" like that? OregonBlue Jul 2020 #48

Happy Hoosier

(7,077 posts)
1. Ask him if he supports Trump's cruelty.
Tue Jul 14, 2020, 11:57 PM
Jul 2020

Ask him is he supports mocking disabled people on national television. Or his brazenly destroying the careers of honest, carrier officials who dare to stand up to him. Maybe your friend is just a dirtbag and it took this for you to notice it. Or maybe he needs to be reminded of what he is supporting. Integrity matters.

Happy Hoosier

(7,077 posts)
37. In my experience, that is often the case...
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 08:30 AM
Jul 2020

Many MAGAts are perfectly willing to tolerate his bullshit if he gives voice to their racist crap. They feel freed or vindicated that they think they no longer have to hide their racism.

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
44. Uh pretty sure all of that is a huge part of the draw for trump supporters
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 12:09 PM
Jul 2020

Has been for 5 years now. They love all that shit.

Response to jimlup (Original post)

cayugafalls

(5,631 posts)
4. Trump is not the anti war candidate. He is all for civil war.
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 12:03 AM
Jul 2020

He has done nothing but exacerbate the division in this country to the point of inciting homegrown groups to outwardly claim their commitment to overthrowing the current political system and starting the next civil war.

His rhetoric has been nothing short of demonizing and animalizing the left in order to make it palatable for the killing of liberal Americans by extreme right factions. Trump wants and has inflamed the culture war. While he may not be the international war monger, he sure has left our soldiers on their own when Putin puts bounties on their heads and he has no problem with nodding his head to the extreme right groups that would like nothing more than to gun down liberals in the street.

You may not get your friend to vote for Joe, but you may at least be able to convince him that in no way is Trump an anti war candidate.

sfstaxprep

(9,998 posts)
6. You Gotta Know When To Hold 'Em, Know When To Fold 'Em
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 12:07 AM
Jul 2020

Sometimes it's just a complete lost cause. You'll only frustrate yourself.

He'll always have his Cult Base. There's no way to get rid of All his support. Spend time on someone who might have an open mind, your "friend" obviously does not.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
25. Not a trump supporter -
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 01:51 AM
Jul 2020

but I have a friend with similar qualifications who (currently at least) cannot bring herself to vote for Biden. She is likely to vote for a third party.

I don't get it (aside from age and inexperience), but it is a real issue among otherwise intelligent young socialists/libertarians.

 

Decoy of Fenris

(1,954 posts)
26. Republicanism (or 'Conservativism') isn't exclusive to 'low income, low education' voters.
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 02:05 AM
Jul 2020

Some of the most booksmart people I know personally insist worldwide eugenics and unification is Humanity's only path forward as a species. For them, it's simple math; the 'human' element, or the individual, is meaningless. People like this are fairly common in the 'higher' echelons of society, even throughout history. Chilling to think these people are the ones researching biological weapons, designing spacecraft and entering politics, though.

Laffy Kat

(16,356 posts)
9. It's not about being "anti-war." There is something else going on with your friend.
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 12:14 AM
Jul 2020

Closet misogynist/racist/homophobe? I have no other explanation.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,746 posts)
10. Clearly, getting an advanced degree in physics
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 12:25 AM
Jul 2020

did not leave him with an ability to understand science. Or even facts in general.

brush

(53,471 posts)
11. It's surprising that a physicist, a scientist, would be for an illogical...
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 12:41 AM
Jul 2020

nutjob candidate who constantly fights against his scientists and logic on covid. How can that even happen?

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
36. Like a distinguished, hard-wired Christian fundamentalist neuroscientist,
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 08:17 AM
Jul 2020

who believes the Bible contains all truth and everything that conflicts in any way is false?

People ARE strange, all right. I imagine I'm pretty safe in assuming they can't comprehend how others "think" either.

brush

(53,471 posts)
42. People are strange is right. Trying to reconciling the logic of the scientific method...
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 11:37 AM
Jul 2020

with the Bible must be a struggle though.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
45. Amazingly, not at all, tho! I couldn't "feel" how it would be
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 12:24 PM
Jul 2020

to hold two conflicting belief systems at once when reading about it, but that's one of the more surprising things I was able to pick up. There is no dissonance, so no need for reconciliation. God's truth rules, period. Science is presumably allowed to be useful when not conflicting but...maybe seen as intensely flawed...I guess? Or something.

At my age I just assume some peoples' (like a half-sister's) thoughts and mine are on nonintersecting lines. Not even when they seem to cross at some point, as I've learned a bunch of times when happily thinking I've found a point of agreement. Some thoughts come from somewhere I've never been and are going where I can't follow. And no doubt vice versa for them.

Celerity

(42,662 posts)
15. Is Donald Trump anti-science? The data says yes
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 01:03 AM
Jul 2020
Is Donald Trump at war with science?

https://phys.org/news/2020-01-donald-trump-anti-science.html

Figure 1. A graphic representation of how often different US Presidents have used specific keywords in their State of the Union (SOTU) addresses as a percentage of all keywords. It shows for example the stark increase in references to “terror” by George W. Bush following the 9/11 terror attacks in 2001. Credit: University of Melbourne



Repeated attempts to reduce funding for science agencies, unprecedented delays in appointment of science advisors, reductions in staff at federal science agencies, and an ever-growing list of adversarial rhetoric and actions suggest that he is. Although the US Congress has largely saved science organizations from funding cuts, it has been proposed that Trump's systematic efforts to downplay scientific activity, expertise and scientific data may lead to irrational policies and decisions. For a nation founded on the basis of a science of politics, this would be ironic if it were not so distressing. But how does the current administration's attitude towards science compare with that of its predecessors? Is Trump really such an outlier? A variety of methods exist for interrogating this question. Interviews with science advisors to past presidents provide mostly anecdotal evidence for an inseparable collision of science and politics, with presidential behaviors ranging from paradoxical to ambivalent, from supportive to denialist.


Figure 2.The graph shows how often different presidents used science and science-related key words as a percentage of total identified keywords in both SOTU addresses and Presidential Budget Messages (PBM). Credit: University of Melbourne



Funding for major scientific agencies in the US (e.g. NASA) are fought out between the president and congress. This relationship and the resulting budgets, are often driven by political factors (e.g. the partisan balance within the congress), clouding our vision for how well science funding tracks presidential priorities. To examine this question from a different perspective, we undertook a quantitative analysis of US presidential rhetoric about science using two standardised major communications: the annual State of the Union (SOTU) address and the President's Budget Message (PBM) from 1947 to 2019, representing every president since Harry S. Truman, who became president in 1945. We used computer scripts to count the frequency of usage of 30 different keywords and their derivatives from 144 individual transcripts sourced from the Presidency Project. We then used statistical techniques to investigate statistical groupings amongst keywords and presidents. We also developed a science advocacy score (Figures 3 and 4) for each president that addresses three elements: language, funding and actions. The language element is based on the use of science related keywords, like "research," "health" and "climate change."

Figure 3. A graph plotting the Gallop approval rating of US Presidents against their calculated science advocacy scores. It shows a positive correlation between Gallop popularity and science advocacy score. Credit: University of Melbourne



The funding score reflects changes in the proportions of funding going to research and development and funding for the Office of Science and Technology Policy. Presidential action scores are based on a variety of factors related to establishing, abolishing or continuing science-related initiatives. The science advocacy score was calculated with a random sampling approach, including each of the components of each metric to avoid over-reliance on any one component as the best proxy indicator of presidential science advocacy. For example, increased funding for a science agency may not reflect a president's budget proposal, but rather a decision by Congress to oppose a president's proposed science funding cuts. Finally, we compared science advocacy scores with two independent measures for political popularity: Gallup Presidential Approval Ratings and US Presidential Greatness Scores. Our results (Figures 3 and 4) indicate a positive statistical relationship between science advocacy and political popularity among US Presidents.

This correlation is surprising, but what does it tell us about causality?

When we listen to people speaking—a presidential address, for example—we commonly use heuristics (mental short-cuts) to form rapid judgments about the speaker and their message. So, our evaluations are susceptible to cognitive biases, such as confirmation and belief bias.

Figure 4. A graph plotting the Greatness score of US Presidents against their calculated science advocacy score. It shows a positive correlation between esteem and science advocacy scores. Credit: University of Melbourne



For example, while we might consider the rhetorical styles of Trump and Obama to be extremely different based on our judgments of their manners and body language, computerized content analysis of their speeches indicates these two presidents are remarkably similar (and unlike their predecessors) in terms of their self-reference and tenacity. The language time-series (Figure 1) reflects the emergence and dissipation of major US societal issues and presidential priorities (e.g. George W. Bush's War on Terror, Obama's focus on business and jobs following the global financial crisis, Reagan's tax reforms, Eisenhower's military priorities). The most frequent users of science-related keywords are Eisenhower, Kennedy, Clinton and Obama (Figure 2). While Ford, Bush Jr and Trump are the least frequent users of these keywords. Trump's SOTU addresses are the most linguistically different to his predecessors, as illustrated by the cluster tree (Figure 5). Much has been made about Trump's unpopularity and his "war on science." In our analysis, Trump has the lowest popularity and the lowest science advocacy score. The most popular presidents (Eisenhower, Kennedy, Bush Sr and Obama; the latter by greatness score only) have the highest science advocacy scores, and a positive trend amongst these variables is evident in this analysis. This relationship doesn't imply causality. There are many reasons why this relationship might exist.

Figure 5. A graph showing how far from the usual (the numerical track at top) and from each other US presidents differ in their regular use of keywords in SOTU addresses. It shows that President Trump is an outlier, differing more from the other presidents in his use of selected keywords. Credit: University of Melbourne



snip

jimlup

(7,968 posts)
40. Yes and yes ...
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 09:07 AM
Jul 2020

but still he should be able to see through it.

Instead of "scientist" think "mad scientist" which is a better description of who he is.

Response to jimlup (Original post)

Response to larwdem (Reply #22)

Chili

(1,725 posts)
18. know how you feel
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 01:12 AM
Jul 2020

I'm in the midst of losing one of my best friends I've known for 35 years. I'm black, she's white, but her reaction to the BLM protests shocked me. She has some shaky habits I've ignored because she's been very good to me over the years, gone way beyond proving the sincerity of her friendship. But this crisis took the cake. So I'm torn too. At the moment, I've almost written her off in my heart, not sure how to come back from it, or if I want to, or if she'd care. We haven't spoken for over a month, which is not uncommon, but it is because she knows I'm disturbed and it's either "she'll get over it" or "don't care if she doesn't" and I'm almost there myself. She didn't vote for trump, however, and voted for Obama twice, though, yeah, she's republican. But... now, my thoughts are that, with that asshole's racist presser today, she nodded her head when he incredibly said, "white people die too." Suddenly, horrible fear that she did.

Good luck, hope you find the most satisfactory conclusion.

Xolodno

(6,330 posts)
20. Don't try to understand it.
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 01:20 AM
Jul 2020

Soon as I hear, "both sides"....I know I'm dealing with a Repub, granted one in the closet. The "both sides" massages their prejudices as being, "fair"...when they aren't. Much like the excuse, "I get my news from all over".

Also, Albert Einstein described Economics as more difficult than Physics. So you can't use that as an explanation. And even within Economics, you have too many who embrace ideology over the science, for example, the .dot com bubble really disillusioned me about the effectiveness of Monetarism and self-regulation...and despite that, some, still refuse to look at the numbers and embrace a failed theory.

GReedDiamond

(5,299 posts)
21. Tell him Trump is at war with The American People...
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 01:24 AM
Jul 2020

...and that he (Twitler) is responsible for more Americans dying in a matter of months, than what happened in years of the various wars America has previously engaged in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

Hamlette

(15,393 posts)
27. TRump is anti war
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 02:10 AM
Jul 2020

because he's a coward. Don't think that argument will work with your friend but I've always thought he would not get us in another war because he is chicken. Can you imagine him calling the parents of dead soldiers? He doesn't have the stuff.

Look at Covid. He has no idea what to do so he just retreats. Different kind of war but a war indeed. Head in the sand.

SunSeeker

(51,368 posts)
28. I could never be "close friends" with a Trumper.
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 02:17 AM
Jul 2020

Being a Trumper invariably means they have some terrible personality traits that would be a deal breaker for any friendship.

From my experience, when so-called smart people are Trumpers, it usually means they're racists. Trump validates/legitimizes their racism, so they're willing to put up with his incompetence.

There is nothing anti-war about Trump. He has emboldened North Korea and Russia so much, that their continued provocations could easily end up in war. Trump's State Department is so incompetent that it can never negotiate a peaceful solution beneficial to the US. They only have two modes: 1. Capitulation; or 2. threaten war.

Lucky Luciano

(11,242 posts)
29. Tell him when you try to observe his politics it becomes impossible to observe his humanity...
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 02:33 AM
Jul 2020

...since the act of observing his politics distorts his humanity.

renate

(13,776 posts)
31. Does he remember that time when all of Hawaii got that "incoming" text alert?
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 02:49 AM
Jul 2020

People were sending last “I love you” texts and we all believed it was real for a while, because it was ENTIRELY POSSIBLE because Trump had been shooting off his mouth about Kim at the time BECAUSE HE HAS NO SELF CONTROL.

Good times.

ms liberty

(8,479 posts)
32. I laughed at this but it was a cynical, nervous laughter.
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 07:48 AM
Jul 2020

I would have never stressed 10 years off my life over Dubya if I'd known what was coming.

Mister Ed

(5,896 posts)
33. If he refuses to see what's square in front of his face...
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 07:53 AM
Jul 2020

...then what good can it do for anyone to verbally describe to him what's square in front of his face?

JHB

(37,131 posts)
35. Is he an actual MAGAt or a high-dudgeon lefty in full "I cannot even!" mode?
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 07:56 AM
Jul 2020

Knowing that can make a difference in the approach.

irisblue

(32,829 posts)
38. A third party POTUS vote in *OHIO*
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 08:44 AM
Jul 2020

is a vote for trump IMO. Dems will need the 18 electoral votes, if those 18 go the gop & apricothellbeast, we will get 4 more yrs of trumpism.

Please reconsider your POV in that.

Johnny2X2X

(18,745 posts)
39. They don't feel Trump gets a fair shake
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 08:55 AM
Jul 2020

I also have a good friend who's a Trumpster. This guy is a brilliant aerospace engineer and a really good guy and family man to boot and a vet.

What I feel happens is that they watch FOX who highlights all day Trump's good policies, and they feel like Trump doesn't get any credit for what he's done. It's lost on them that the majority of the country doesn't approve of deregulation (his biggest accomplishment to them).

So they have it embedded deep in their brains that he's done these good things and any coverage they see of Trump that doesn't give him some credit they can then dismiss. So it becomes part of their views that they will defend, that Trump is getting his due credit. Once you've crossed that threshold everything is on the table, normal intelligent people start exaggerating things to prove their point, they start to turn more of his policies into big wins. Before you know it they're defending everything he does.

How bad can it get? He sat their in late February in the cafeteria and told us that Trump banning travel from China in January was why the US was not going to be affected by Covid-19 much at all. The kicker, at the table with us, was our former boss, who had just flew back from China in mid February. That's how powerful this is to people, smart people at that. I said, "How can you say that when you know for a fact someone sitting at this very table flew back from China recently?" No answer from him, just mumbled something about how it's all shut down now.

Now this is a guy who was an officer in the Air Force. He is a licensed pilot. He trains other pilots. He knows as much about the inner workings of aircraft as anyone. He knows the software and the hardware. He's a fantastic leader at our company and a very strategic thinker. He leaves me in awe of him at times as he's always thinking 2 levels deeper than I am capable of. And I've never seen someone be able to absorb and apply new information and techniques into his daily practicum as efficiently as this guy. Just an absolute brilliant person who I would trust to run most mid sized companies and who can run a $150 Million project without being challenged. And he's loyal and caring for everyone. We had a vet who he didn't even know well who's house caught fire and burned down, he found out the vet lost all of his medals and awards he got while serving. Well he spent months contacting the Marines and this guys commanding officer and unit to find replacements for all the medals and badges the guy lost in the fire and he just drove over their one night with a case full of everything and presented it to the Marine, who is about the toughest SOB you'll meet, but I bet he broke down.

So this guy, if he can still be taken in, is there hope for the 40 million devotees? Many of whom are below average intelligence?

FWIW, I think this guy may vote for Biden, but I don't think he'll say so. He really just couldn't vote for Hillary.

jimlup

(7,968 posts)
41. Thanks everyone!
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 09:09 AM
Jul 2020

The responses are all helpful insight.

The thing that gets me is that he kept saying that "I was only seeing one side." I call bullshit but I'm sure he'll never see it that way.

OregonBlue

(7,744 posts)
43. Seems to me you need to find out what it is he really
Wed Jul 15, 2020, 12:07 PM
Jul 2020

Identifies with in Trump. The greed? The hatred of women? The racism? The cruelty? There is something there he identies with.

OregonBlue

(7,744 posts)
48. So be it. Sad, but do you really need "friends" like that?
Thu Jul 16, 2020, 11:45 AM
Jul 2020

I had to give up a life-long friend. I made sure to let her know in a calm but definite way why I was doing it. People need to know where your values are and why you find theirs so unacceptable. Good luck.

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