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Demovictory9

(32,320 posts)
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 01:51 PM Feb 2021

CA homeowners learn that what they believed was part of their backyard belongs to water district

Saratoga Creek restoration project removes more than trees: Some residents lose their backyards

Phil Livengood, a retired U.S. Navy pilot and 50-year Saratoga Creek resident, stands in the Saratoga Creek bed next to his backyard. Part of what he believed was his property will be reclaimed by the Santa Clara Valley Water District for the restoration project.



For example, according to a map from the district delineating the parts of Livengood’s backyard that it owns, one area of his current backyard is approximately 31 feet beyond the real property line. Other residents' real property lines show even greater space discrepancies, within which most people had built additions that they now must destroy to accommodate the project.

The district has technically always owned this property, but according to Livengood, a handshake between the county and subdivision developers over 50 years ago signified an unwritten agreement that homeowners could develop on the district’s easement as long as they provided access to the company for creek maintenance when needed. Livengood said that original homeowners knew about the agreement, but newer buyers did not.

Teresa Cappiello is one of those buyers whose property is affected by the project. In 2015, she and her husband received a letter from the water district announcing that the couple was encroaching on the district’s property and they needed to remove all hardscape within 90 days, Cappiello said in an interview.

“It was shocking, because for the 21 years that we had lived here, the water district had been through my yard a number of times and no one ever mentioned that we were on their property,” said Cappiello.



https://www.sfgate.com/local/editorspicks/article/This-Bay-Area-restoration-project-is-claiming-15957384.php?IPID=SFGate-HP-CP-Spotlight
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CA homeowners learn that what they believed was part of their backyard belongs to water district (Original Post) Demovictory9 Feb 2021 OP
When we bought our house we knew to check the survey/property lines. ret5hd Feb 2021 #1
ahhhh, ok? USALiberal Feb 2021 #2
ahhhh, just sounds like some homeowners... ret5hd Feb 2021 #5
I'm with you. Arthur_Frain Feb 2021 #27
Around here, where a group of homeowner conspired to take HOA and golfcourse Baitball Blogger Feb 2021 #3
I think that's mandatory in my area - called a "title search" lagomorph777 Feb 2021 #7
If that's the case, they knew exactly where the property lines are. ret5hd Feb 2021 #9
We did, too, but ours was a sixty acre farm csziggy Feb 2021 #12
Our tiny city lot has a concrete curb on three sides, street on the fourth. ret5hd Feb 2021 #14
Not a lot of doubt, other than easements, of where that property ends! csziggy Feb 2021 #16
My whole town is in the Maumelle Water District - Providing water for Little Rock. LiberalArkie Feb 2021 #15
I know a portion of my front yard is easement used for cable lines and jimfields33 Feb 2021 #18
water rights and private interests -- the stuff of legendary movies aikoaiko Feb 2021 #4
My first thought was..... leftofthestorm Feb 2021 #6
yeppers.. Water Wars. n/t msfiddlestix Feb 2021 #8
Similar incident in my rural community where easements procon Feb 2021 #10
People, get the freaking plat for your property before buying it. Politicub Feb 2021 #11
This is so true. Wellstone ruled Feb 2021 #13
This is what title insurance is for csziggy Feb 2021 #17
Okay. But for anyone else reading, please make sure to get the survey for the land or home. Politicub Feb 2021 #23
Yes - get both. They may be expensive but you are sure your land and your title are correct csziggy Feb 2021 #25
We've stayed in this house longer than any other. It's our first place that wasn't Politicub Feb 2021 #30
The only communal living I've done is in dorms csziggy Feb 2021 #32
We had the opposite problem... hunter Feb 2021 #19
I don't know the law in CA but wouldn't they also need a building permit meadowlander Feb 2021 #20
That was my thought too, it says "most people built additions..." Cal Carpenter Feb 2021 #26
It can be onerous to go through the permitting process, but it can save one's Politicub Feb 2021 #31
This surveyor has seen this story a thousand times. yonder Feb 2021 #21
owner should check his property tax n see if he is due a refund for paying taxes on that msongs Feb 2021 #22
The county or city does not care about whether your property was once creekside or Politicub Feb 2021 #24
The property owners could have an adverse possession coti Feb 2021 #28
Sue to get all your back taxes. TheBlackAdder Feb 2021 #29

ret5hd

(20,433 posts)
1. When we bought our house we knew to check the survey/property lines.
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 01:57 PM
Feb 2021

I thought that was common knowledge. We just wanted to know EXACTLY what was ours.

Baitball Blogger

(46,570 posts)
3. Around here, where a group of homeowner conspired to take HOA and golfcourse
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:00 PM
Feb 2021

property, they don't even have their property surveyed at time of sale, because they know they're selling from one conspirator to another. Surveys would flag their true property line.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
7. I think that's mandatory in my area - called a "title search"
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:06 PM
Feb 2021

They produce an official plat that's part of the transaction.

ret5hd

(20,433 posts)
9. If that's the case, they knew exactly where the property lines are.
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:12 PM
Feb 2021

Reminds me of that guy in California that wants to block off beach access and put a fence/gate across public easement.

A cursory search shows Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, et al have tried the same thing regarding beach access. A rich mans game.

csziggy

(34,119 posts)
12. We did, too, but ours was a sixty acre farm
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:17 PM
Feb 2021

The people we bought from got it on tax deeds and never had it surveyed. Sometime before that it had been so the company that did our survey used that as a start. I had the entire property surveyed and had them set concrete markers so we could always find our borders.

I find it very amusing that the point of beginning for my survey and legal description is an axle stuck in the ground, end up. Other properties nearby also use that axle as the point of beginning for their property description. I suppose at some point before I die I should have a concrete marker put in at that corner. That axle stuck in swampy ground is not going to last forever!

The neighborhood next door was laid out by an incompetent engineering company. One of the property owners next to us told us between their yard and the one next door, there was a 10' wide strip that was not included in any of the lots in the subdivision. He grabbed it before the unpleasant neighbors could - got the guy who set up the subdivision (not the engineering company) to sign a quit claim deed to avoid unnecessary expense.

Things like that is why you should check your property lines when you buy and every time you do anything major on your land.

csziggy

(34,119 posts)
16. Not a lot of doubt, other than easements, of where that property ends!
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:42 PM
Feb 2021

Mine was more complex - when the family bought the tax deeds they missed one acre. We had one acre out of the side of the 60 acres, quarter of a mile from the road, with no access except through our land. I tried to buy it from the owner but he was hoping we'd someday develop our piece and he could make a bundle.

To bad for him, we will never subdivide this land. So in 1999 when he was in his late 80s he sold it to me at what I had offered twenty years before. It was relief since if he'd sold to someone else and they built a house, I would have had to provide access across my pastures and I would have lived with the worry that the owner would leave gates open as they came and went.

LiberalArkie

(15,686 posts)
15. My whole town is in the Maumelle Water District - Providing water for Little Rock.
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:27 PM
Feb 2021

No choice, Central Arkansas Water just claimed the property for Little Rock. 40 miles away.

jimfields33

(15,450 posts)
18. I know a portion of my front yard is easement used for cable lines and
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:55 PM
Feb 2021

other utilities. Everyone in our development has the same section that can be dug up at anytime. Luckily they do it pretty carefully and even run lines under our drive way.

procon

(15,805 posts)
10. Similar incident in my rural community where easements
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:13 PM
Feb 2021

Often hit both the front and rear property lines for either 15 or 30 ft. On my back property homeowners have built fence lines over the years that have encroached on the 15ft easement from each property.

Us long time property owners knew that the easement was intended as a service road for a waterline, but the pipe was seldom used and it was long forgotten, even by the water company. Every once in a while some neighbors will battle it out over the easement right of way and force someone to move their fence back.

In front we have a 30 foot easement for roads that originally were for installing fire hydrants back in the post WWII building surge. Houses quickly followed the easement roads and that built the grid for our whole community.

Politicub

(12,163 posts)
11. People, get the freaking plat for your property before buying it.
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:13 PM
Feb 2021

The easements are clearly marked.

We passed on a house because there was a big utility easement between the house we were looking at and the one next to it. There weren’t utility lines or wires at the time we were looking, but the width of the easement was ten feet on either side of the property line. We would have had no leg to stand on should the power company choose to run high-capacity lines.

“Unwritten agreement,” indeed.

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
13. This is so true.
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:22 PM
Feb 2021

Real Estate Agents and Jockey's could care less. The rule is,if they discover it at Closing,tough,deal with it.

You pay big bucks to do Abstracting Searches,and most Counties do not have persons with the knowledge as to what they are doing. Property sold by so and so on a certain date to so and so,Good Enough.

Folks would be major surprised who or whom owns the Water Rights with in their Property Boundaries.

csziggy

(34,119 posts)
17. This is what title insurance is for
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:52 PM
Feb 2021

The title company can check the property for easements, liens, and all sorts of things. They can also recommend a survey or advise on boundary markers, etc.

Once they do their review they can provide insurance in case something is found wrong with the deed - after all, they were supposed to find all defects so they have to stand behind their work.


Title Insurance
By Adam Hayes
Reviewed By Charles Potters
Updated Jul 29, 2020

What Is Title Insurance?

Title insurance is a form of indemnity insurance that protects lenders and homebuyers from financial loss sustained from defects in a title to a property. The most common type of title insurance is lender's title insurance, which the borrower purchases to protect the lender. The other type is owner's title insurance, which is often paid for by the seller to protect the buyer's equity in the property.
Key Takeaways

Title insurance protects lenders and buyers from financial loss due to defects in a title to a property.
The most common claims filed against a title are back taxes, liens, and conflicting wills.
A one-time fee paid for title insurance covers pricey administrative fees for deep searches of title data to protect against claims for past occurrences.


More: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/title_insurance.asp

Politicub

(12,163 posts)
23. Okay. But for anyone else reading, please make sure to get the survey for the land or home.
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 05:12 PM
Feb 2021

Protect yourself and be your own advocate. And get title insurance.

Every time I have moved and needed a new mortgage, we get title insurance. Said insurance has never -- not once -- had anything to do with us seeing the survey or plat.

Often times, we have paid for a lot survey, since the buyer did not have one or it was old.

I'm also a city government meeting nerd, and would see people complaining about easements constantly. A common refrain is that they were never told about an easement when they bought a property. Typically, they have no recourse.

New construction developers are especially bad about making a verbal promise that's not kept. A title and plat may even describe an easement, but the home buyer will value what a developer says over legal documents.

Every time we need to sell our home and buy another, I learn something new to look for. It truly is the school of hard knocks. In this home (built in the 1950s), no one told us that the homes were built with a French drain that goes underneath the basement -- and under foundation walls. This causes foundation issues (which we're having, and they're expensive to address).

We'll know to ask about something like this if we move again.

csziggy

(34,119 posts)
25. Yes - get both. They may be expensive but you are sure your land and your title are correct
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 05:37 PM
Feb 2021

I'm glad I will never move again. I lucked out on this property - the tax deeds were old enough they could not be challenged. There were no structures or facilities worth keeping, no easements to worry about.

Aside from the house with no indoor plumbing, the pig pens, and trash, we had a blank slate. There wasn't even a real well, just a ground water well.

Politicub

(12,163 posts)
30. We've stayed in this house longer than any other. It's our first place that wasn't
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 06:35 PM
Feb 2021

a condo or apartment.

I love not having neighbors on the other side of the wall.

Now, I had no idea how much work and $$$ being a homeowner would entail. It costs much more than renting ever did, but I think it's worth the extra expense.

csziggy

(34,119 posts)
32. The only communal living I've done is in dorms
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 08:06 PM
Feb 2021

Which I hated with a passion. I shared a house with friends for a year, but after that I lived alone until I married. We've been here for over forty years and the concept of living in a condo or apartment makes my skin crawl.

You think having a house is a lot of work and money? Try running a farm! I just spent a large bundle of money doing clearing and re-fencing pastures. It's been twenty years since I haven't been able to drive a tractor and no one I hired would get into the corners to cut down all the volunteer trees and weeds, so we've got a lot of clearing to do now.

Just to mow the pastures once is about $800 and it needs to be down four or more times a year. Farms are not cheap!

hunter

(38,263 posts)
19. We had the opposite problem...
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 02:58 PM
Feb 2021

... when we discovered a water main ran beneath our driveway.

The water company freaked out. I thought they'd simply negotiate for an easement but they dug up the street in front of our house and our next door neighbor's house and relocated the water main instead.

I'm guessing the original contractor took a shortcut years before our house was built. We discovered the problem when their pipe under our driveway started leaking. At first the water company insisted it was our water leaking and they weren't responsible for any leaks past the meter... It took about a week for them to send a guy out to verify that, yes indeed, the water didn't stop bubbling up when the water was turned off at our meter.

meadowlander

(4,358 posts)
20. I don't know the law in CA but wouldn't they also need a building permit
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 03:07 PM
Feb 2021

for anything more substantial than a shed or anything that had pipes or wires? As part of that permitting process, they would have checked the property boundaries.

So either the structures out there are so minor they didn't need a permit and therefore not that valuable and difficult to move or they built stuff out there without a permit which means they don't have a leg to stand on.

Cal Carpenter

(4,959 posts)
26. That was my thought too, it says "most people built additions..."
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 05:51 PM
Feb 2021

so how did they get permits approved if it wasn't legally their land?

I'm not an expert on any of that stuff, but I would think that the city or whatever entity would verify that the property actually belonged to the homeowners. And I know where I live, new structures or additions have to be X number of feet from the property line and/or from neighboring structures. I would assume that being that close to a creek bed might also be a red flag for permit approval?

I don't really understand this, I guess.

Politicub

(12,163 posts)
31. It can be onerous to go through the permitting process, but it can save one's
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 06:37 PM
Feb 2021

ass when it comes to something like this.

There would need to be a zoning variance or SLUP to get a permit for building so close to a body of water anyway.

yonder

(9,631 posts)
21. This surveyor has seen this story a thousand times.
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 03:17 PM
Feb 2021

A deed, survey and an understanding of what any encumbering easements restricts or allows goes a long way. 5 or 10 foot utility easements along a side lot line are common and usually not a big deal. Same thing with an easement behind the front right-of-way. Usually.

But too often, someone with an iron in the fire like a seller or real estate agent will withhold info or suggest something that isn't accurate. "Your property line runs along the middle of that 'beautiful' creek, nobody ever gets back there". True enough, the back line is in the centerline of it. But that "creek" might actually be an irrigation canal or drainage ditch with a 30 foot wide access AND maintenance easement on either side and allows for access AND maintenance by the irrigation district. The heartburn and finger pointing begins when the district periodically decides it's time to get that trackhoe back there to hog it out while taking out Aunt Sally's memorial oak tree, Grandma's 'streamside' pagoda and any other improvements for the benefit of the waterway or it's users, both upstream and down.

Like anything else, due diligence, knowledge and awareness are key.

msongs

(67,193 posts)
22. owner should check his property tax n see if he is due a refund for paying taxes on that
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 03:27 PM
Feb 2021

creekside property that he is cannot control

Politicub

(12,163 posts)
24. The county or city does not care about whether your property was once creekside or
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 05:15 PM
Feb 2021

if you used to have a view of the Golden Gate bridge, and a new high-rise will block it.

"You don't own the view that you don't own." I heard a realtor say this at a public meeting.

coti

(4,612 posts)
28. The property owners could have an adverse possession
Fri Feb 19, 2021, 05:59 PM
Feb 2021

argument here. Depends a lot on the details of the possession on both sides.

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