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Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:22 PM

 

Joe Manchin is Right.

https://news.yahoo.com/joe-manchin-115804083.html

40 replies, 2744 views

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Reply Joe Manchin is Right. (Original post)
BGBD Jun 2021 OP
Demsrule86 Jun 2021 #1
uponit7771 Jun 2021 #2
dmacdon4 Jun 2021 #3
GoodRaisin Jun 2021 #6
LonePirate Jun 2021 #11
BGBD Jun 2021 #19
LanternWaste Jun 2021 #20
GoodRaisin Jun 2021 #21
krawhitham Jun 2021 #27
GoodRaisin Jun 2021 #32
Blanks Jun 2021 #4
FoxNewsSucks Jun 2021 #5
budkin Jun 2021 #7
greenman3610 Jun 2021 #8
wellst0nev0ter Jun 2021 #9
Fiendish Thingy Jun 2021 #17
wellst0nev0ter Jun 2021 #25
Fiendish Thingy Jun 2021 #26
wellst0nev0ter Jun 2021 #30
Fiendish Thingy Jun 2021 #31
wellst0nev0ter Jun 2021 #33
Fiendish Thingy Jun 2021 #35
BGBD Jun 2021 #37
LonePirate Jun 2021 #10
BGBD Jun 2021 #28
LonePirate Jun 2021 #34
BGBD Jun 2021 #36
LonePirate Jun 2021 #38
NJCher Jun 2021 #12
Nexus2 Jun 2021 #40
dem4decades Jun 2021 #13
StarfishSaver Jun 2021 #14
Fiendish Thingy Jun 2021 #15
Fiendish Thingy Jun 2021 #16
In It to Win It Jun 2021 #18
JustAnotherGen Jun 2021 #22
LonePirate Jun 2021 #39
global1 Jun 2021 #23
Fullduplexxx Jun 2021 #24
Goodheart Jun 2021 #29

Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:27 PM

1. I had no clue that this bill was so flawed ...thanks!

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:31 PM

2. This is a brave post and people should read the article. I still don't like Manchin not setting ...

... boundaries with the GQP and Moscow Mitch.

There should be a hard line and then blow past it when Moscow Mitch claims he will or wont do something.

Like right now, this part of the article stands out

Democrats and Republicans should work together to pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act, a


Moscow Mitch said no, now what?!!?

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:37 PM

3. Joe Manchin is wrong...

The yahoo opinion piece is pure Republicrat propoganda.

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Response to dmacdon4 (Reply #3)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:40 PM

6. How do you know?

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Response to GoodRaisin (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:51 PM

11. I read the article and I agree the article is Republican propaganda.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #11)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 06:18 PM

19. Lol

 

Written by a guy who writes for a lot of leftist magazines.

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Response to BGBD (Reply #19)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 06:20 PM

20. Seems at worst, merely a corollary to the piece offered in the OP

 

Giving you at best, six of one instead of dozen of the other.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #11)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 06:41 PM

21. I read the article too, but I haven't read the bill.

So I wondered how he knew.

Your post number 10 tells me much more than his post did. I don't doubt your points. They align with what I generally read and hear. I expected the bill to have good and bad points. I particularly don't like that it doesn't address the subversion of states who are trying to ignore democracy. I'm glad you pointed that out, it's important information for people to know. I also found the case for the filibuster to add more right wing feel to the article.

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Response to GoodRaisin (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 08:11 PM

27. being a yahoo opinion piece should be your first clue

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Response to krawhitham (Reply #27)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 08:56 PM

32. Why?

Is Yahoo right wing? (I really don't read it at all.)

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:38 PM

4. Perhaps, but he should be specific...

He says there are things he objects to in the bill, he should do an interview and list some of them.

If he did that, everyone would stop attacking him. Makes it seem like he’s just doing it for all of the attention.

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:39 PM

5. it was interesting,

Worth reading, but if so, why doesn't Manchin say that instead of the crap he spews when questioned?

And in any case, republiqons still won't vote for anything anyway

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:41 PM

7. NO

He's not.

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:46 PM

8. Lawrence featured some of these arguments on his program last night

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:49 PM

9. Manchin was a cosponsor for the For The People Act

 

Now stop covering for his flip-flop.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 06:04 PM

17. He was in 2019, but is no longer a co-sponsor. Nt

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 07:57 PM

25. So what made him change his mind?

 

Defund the police?

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 08:07 PM

26. WTF? That has nothing to do with HR1. Nt

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #26)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 08:54 PM

30. HR1 is the For The People Act

 

Right?

So explain it to me like I'm five years old: What made him go from a cosponsor of HR1 to an opponent?

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #30)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 08:56 PM

31. Yes...your point? Not

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #31)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 08:58 PM

33. Walk me through it

 

What made Traitor Joe change his mind?

This shouldn't be a complicated question to answer.

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #33)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 09:03 PM

35. A large check from the Koch bros? It didn't have anything to do with defunding police. Nt

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Response to wellst0nev0ter (Reply #9)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 11:55 PM

37. "Flip flop"

 

What a republican talking point that concept is.

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:49 PM

10. That article is exceptionally short-sighted, misinformed and biased. It needs to be ignored.

The article makes a case for minority rule by saying the filibuster allows the minority party to stop legislation they strongly oppose. The problem with that is both parties strongly oppose everything the other party would want to pass without the filibuster. The filibuster, as it stands in our highly polarized era, upends traditional majority rule in our democracy in favor of minority rule and brings governance to a halt. Without the filibuster, the government can enact legislation. If the public does not like that legislation, there will be an election within two years where they can change the legislators in the House and in 1/3 of the Senate to correct the wrongs of that legislation. The filibuster is an anti-democratic weapon, in relation to how we have enacted democracy in this country.

Second, there are a lot of very good aspects of HR1, which the article’s author takes fault with because it would federalize elections (as if allowing vote by mail with a minimum of two weeks of early voting in non-gerrymandered congressional districts is a bad thing). Also, the civil rights aspects of the bill would join other famous pieces of legislation, namely the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments among others, which were passed by Congress via exceptionally partisan votes. Civil rights rarely pass Congress with anything resembling large bipartisan majority votes. Sure there may be things in HR1 that will not pass constitutional muster in the Supreme Court (namely the campaign finance portions). And yes, the bill should do something to address the threat of election subversion by states who ignore democracy which was the author’s other main problem with the bill. Still, there are plenty of good reasons to pass HR1. Heck, Manchin supported the 2019 version of the bill which is very similar to the 2021 version.

The article’s author along with Joe Manchin are not right on HR1 or the filibuster.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #10)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 08:31 PM

28. The irony

 

Of calling something short sighted while you advocate for eliminating the filibuster.

A two party system with pure majority rule is unsustainable for even a short period.

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Response to BGBD (Reply #28)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 09:00 PM

34. If you don't support majority rule, you don't support democracy in this country.

If you want to enshrine the filibuster into the Constitution, thus strengthening minority rule even more than it already is in the current Senate, then that would be changing the definition of democracy in this country. That change would require a super majority of Congress and of the states to enact. In that case, so be it. However, we don't live under a Constitution with a filibuster. As it is, the filibuster is an anti-majoritarian and anti-democracy rule. It needs to go. There is nothing short-sighted about calling for the end of the current filibuster rule in the Senate.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #34)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 11:44 PM

36. Absurd

 

You seem to want a government incapable of maintaining any symbolance of continuity. To make American Government a pinball bouncing between bumpers wildly with each shift of power. Without the filibuster 8n place, the country would tear itself apart in a decade.

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Response to BGBD (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 9, 2021, 12:12 AM

38. You are making a massive (and incorrect) assumption that regular changes of control are coming.

I completely disagree with the constant part. First, there might an initial changeover in control as each party rushes to push through their backlog. However, after that initial rush and after things are blocked by presidential vetoes or Supreme Court rulings, that tide of reactive legislation opposed by the other party will decrease dramatically. That will stem the turnover you're needlessly worried about.

Also, despite the fluke of the 2016 election, the chances of a Republican returning to the White House anytime soon, barring a significant economic downturn, are slim, even with the malfeasance of Republican state legislatures. GA is not reverting red as it is the new CO or VA. TX is knocking on the Dems door and it will turn blue in either 2024 or 2028. That's lights out for Republicans at the presidential level when that happens. FL becomes inconsequential and even it is not guaranteed to be in the red column for every election. A Dem president stops the bulk of the Republican horrors which prevents a lot of the turnover you fear.

Still, fear is never a valid reason to maintain an anti-democratic rule not supported by the Constitution. Supporting the filibuster is simply declaring your opposition to current American democracy while hiding behind the entirely speculative belief that the future will be worse without the filibuster. Ignoring the problems of today while cowering to a completely uncertain and unlikely fate in the future is what is actually absurd,

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:54 PM

12. interesting article but he has no solutions

He proposes this at the end:

Unless and until that happens, they have no choice but to try and work with the opposition, especially when it comes to reforming the country's electoral rules.

They've already said they're not going to do anything to further Biden's plans. McConnell said that. So I guess the author thinks we should spin our wheels some more and run out the clock, because that is the upshot of what he's got to say.

His other proposal, which I think would be workable, is untenable, he himself concludes:

Manchin provides an answer: Democrats and Republicans should work together to pass the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act, an update to the Voting Rights Act that would modernize "the formula states and localities must use to ensure proposed voting laws do not restrict the rights of any particular group or population."

His conclusion: Would it work? In truth, I doubt it — because of the enormous distance and distrust between the parties.

Regardless of the fact that the author has nothing new to say, I'm glad it was posted. It changed my mind about the filibuster because most likely republicans are going to win next round, thanks to Manchin, and we don't need to make their lives any easier.

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Response to NJCher (Reply #12)

Wed Jun 9, 2021, 06:21 AM

40. Manchin is dead set against one voting rights bill, McConnell is against the other one.

That cast a very dim future for 'bipartisan' legislation for voting rights.

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:56 PM

13. well if he'll fight for the John Lewis Law and not this one, he is right. It's his choice.

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 05:58 PM

14. This article is BS

 

As others have said, It's pure Republican propaganda. It's sad to see people here falling for it.

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 06:03 PM

15. No he's not. Bullshit article from self described "TheoCon".

The bill was written to withstand court challenges.

The author of this article does not share pro-democracy values.

Anyone who opposes HR1 is an enabler of Jim Crow 2.0

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 06:03 PM

16. You should delete this OP- RW talking points. Nt

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 06:16 PM

18. The article leaves the implication that Joe Manchin had critiques of the FTP Act outside of the

partisan push to pass it.

To me, the author should work harder at creating a clearer separation of his opinions from those of Joe Manchin's.

The author starts off that Joe Manchin is right about everything surrounding the bill, and then lists everything that's wrong with the bill, including how flawed the content of the bill is... and from what I can tell, Joe Manchin didn't express any opinions on the content of the bill itself.

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 06:52 PM

22. Nope

Damon Linker is wrong.

That's a fine suggestion, to which I'd add another. A small group of Democratic and Republican senators could start working from scratch on a more limited bipartisan bill that prioritizes election integrity. Democrats could insist on receiving assurances that the results of elections will be accepted as valid by state and federal officials in return for Republicans receiving assurances that people who cast and count ballots are doing so in accordance with the law.


They do not want non white people to vote.

That is the NUMBER one litmus test of the GOP.

When WE vote. . . when we are given the franchise - the GOP'S opposition (moderates) will destroy them.

I'm 48. I never thought I would have to worry about my right to vote as a black American - or that of my relatives in GA or AL.

Mr.Linker - is being sneaky and dishonest. The GOP is a bunch of racists and bigots. Fuck that noise of giving their blind hatred of Democracy a platform.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #22)

Wed Jun 9, 2021, 12:24 AM

39. Votes were cast in '20 in accordance with the law. Repubs hated the results so they lie as a defense

Ballots were counted in accordance with the law and only the usual, incredibly insignificant amount of fraud occurred, almost entirely committed by Republicans.

Legitimate voters cast valid votes that were counted properly and produced results that pissed off 45 and led to his sore loser lies about fraud and a lack of election integrity. He repeated his lies frequently due to his desperation and his cultists across the land adopted and believed those lies which has caused this crisis we now face.

We need HR1 and HR4 more than ever - along with additional changes at the state, federal and constitutional level - to ensure all Americans 18 years of age or older can vote and have those votes counted correctly.

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 06:56 PM

23. Well He's Certainly Not Acting Like He's Left....nt

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 07:00 PM

24. Political views In its current incarnation, The New Republic has been unambiguously to the left and

Political views
In its current incarnation, The New Republic has been unambiguously to the left and is often critical of the Democratic establishment and strongly in favor of universal health care.

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Response to BGBD (Original post)

Tue Jun 8, 2021, 08:38 PM

29. How we really should be pressing Joe Manchin right now

1) You think this voting rights act is flawed. Why don't you get off the fence and submit your own? Let's see what you got.
2) You're opposed to ending the filibuster even if it jeopardizes an infrastructure bill? Why don't you get off the fence and submit your own infrastructure bill? Let's see what you got.

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