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Sat Oct 27, 2012, 12:37 PM

Will an Obama victory mean an end to the Electoral College?

After all, the 22nd amendment was passed by Republicans determined never again to face a colossus like Roosevelt!

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Reply Will an Obama victory mean an end to the Electoral College? (Original post)
hedgehog Oct 2012 OP
Motown_Johnny Oct 2012 #1
CreekDog Oct 2012 #8
Motown_Johnny Oct 2012 #9
CreekDog Oct 2012 #11
Motown_Johnny Oct 2012 #13
CreekDog Oct 2012 #14
Motown_Johnny Oct 2012 #15
WinkyDink Oct 2012 #2
Tutonic Oct 2012 #3
PowerToThePeople Oct 2012 #4
DonViejo Oct 2012 #5
doc03 Oct 2012 #6
Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2012 #7
OmahaBlueDog Oct 2012 #10
1-Old-Man Oct 2012 #12

Response to hedgehog (Original post)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 12:39 PM

1. no

 

Last edited Sat Oct 27, 2012, 02:22 PM - Edit history (1)

It is politically impossible to end the electoral college.

You need a 2/3 majority in each house of congress plus 3/4 of the states voting to ratify it.

Neither of these things are possible, much less both. They would require low population states voting to reduce their impact on the Presidential election.

Politically impossible.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #1)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 02:03 PM

8. It's doesn't have to be politically impossible

it's a ridiculous system.

if the nation is at risk of falling apart, the Electoral College will go rather than let the country either lose its democracy or lose a number of states.

and DON'T think that can't happen.

remember what happened the last time the constitution couldn't free a big portion of our people from slavery?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #8)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 02:21 PM

9. So you think there will be a civil war over the electoral college?

 


That would not change the fact that it is politically impossible. In fact, if military action was needed that would be proof positive that it is impossible to do through the political system.

I'm not sure exactly who you are going to send the military out to fight. Or do you think that people who want a popular vote system will take up arms to make it happen? It doesn't seem to fit the personality type but you have a right to your own opinion.

The simple fact is that it is politically impossible to pass that amendment. It just can't be done. Any other thinking on the subject is not based on reality.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #9)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 02:51 PM

11. if the results weren't accepted by enough people, it could cause serious civil strife

and if you don't think that changes what is possible and what is not, then you have not studied history.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #11)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 03:42 PM

13. I think you are reaching.

 

The idea that real civil strife will be caused by the way votes are weighted in one election every four years seems ridiculous to me.

If you don't expect a civil war then do you expect something like the anti war demonstrations of the 60s?

Back then young men were being forced into the military and then sent off to die in a meaningless war halfway around the world.

The popular vote does not hold a candle to that and the civil strife caused by it is minuscule in comparison.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #13)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 04:34 PM

14. I'm not reaching --The Electoral College is considered undemocratic, period

The Senate moreso.

Yes, 50% of the population has 18 Senators.

This is a problem because if well over half the population can't get a democratic result, that is going to cause problems. Tomorrow? No. In the long term? You bet.

What's the point of having democratic rule if people's rights can be held back by a small minority of the people?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #14)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 05:14 PM

15. Considered undemocratic by whom?

 

Other than yourself of course.

As far as the long term is concerned, this is the system that elected FDR three times, Lincoln, Kennedy, you name it. It has proven that it does work over the long term. In the short term we have had problems like W. or Hoover but in the long term it works.

It is Democratic. We live in a representative democracy. The citizens don't do anything to directly effect any decision made by the federal government (voting to ratify constitutional amendments being the one exception). All we do is elect representatives who then vote on our behalf. The electoral college is part of this representative democratic system.

I will agree that the 60 vote rule in the Senate is a problem but that has nothing to do with the electoral college. It also does not require a constitutional amendment to change that Senate rule. Senators should not be in this discussion at all. They have nothing to do with the electoral college.

Now as for this last sentence: "What's the point of having democratic rule if people's rights can be held back by a small minority of the people?"

When the electoral college elects a President even though he/she loses the popular vote it is done in a very close election. Never will there be a small minority which carries the vote over a large majority under the electoral system. A minority that is just slightly smaller than the majority will sometimes win the electoral college, but never a small minority. Never.



At this point I would like to review our little back and forth here.

First I explained why it is impossible to get rid of the electoral college. You responded by comparing it to slavery and implied that the nation would somehow be so damaged by it that the nation might fall apart.

When I pointed out how that comparison doesn't make sense you tried to revise it to "civil strife"

I then pointed out that the strife caused by this system is minuscule, you have now switched to claiming that it is somehow undemocratic and then brought in the Senate to try and make a point and/or change the subject.

Can you see where this is going?

It is impossible to change the system. It is not a cause for war or even great civil unrest. It is democratic. There is even a strict constructionist argument to be made, although I see no reason to go into it. My first point is the important one. IT IS POLITICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO ELIMINATE THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE! You may as well try to sprout wings and fly to the moon because that isn't ever going to happen either.

You should try to focus on working within the system because it is the only one this country will have for the foreseeable future and beyond.

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Response to hedgehog (Original post)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 12:41 PM

2. Given the fact that Obama has ALREADY WON one term,.........

 

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Response to hedgehog (Original post)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 12:42 PM

3. No.

According to Nate, Princeton, Rand, Desart and other election statisticians, OBama will win the majority vote and electoral.

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Response to hedgehog (Original post)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 12:43 PM

4. Doubt it.

 

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Response to hedgehog (Original post)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 01:17 PM

6. Especially if Rmoney gets the popular vote, they may even try that second amendment

remedy they talked about.

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Response to hedgehog (Original post)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 02:00 PM

7. Hopefully. It's undemocratic and an archaic holdover meant to protect slavery.

 

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Response to hedgehog (Original post)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 02:27 PM

10. If Obama wins an EV majority and a minority of the PV, yes.

Al Gore and Willard will go on tour together.

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Response to hedgehog (Original post)

Sat Oct 27, 2012, 02:55 PM

12. The only way you will see a change is if there is a tie in the College, and that's not really likely

Despite what the cable TV shows would like us to believe this race will not be close. And as long as the Electoral College (EC) stays in the background and continues to reflect something akin to the popular vote it will be let to stand. People don't fix what isn't doing them any immediate damage and what with the many pressing problems of the country this one will soon be left behind.

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