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kelly1mm

(4,719 posts)
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 01:05 PM Dec 2022

With the win in GA and us Democrats having actual control of the Senate, filibuster elimination

will be on the top of the agenda in the upcoming Senate, right? After all we have been told for the past two years that it was a top priority for us and that the filibuster is a Jim Crow relic and anti-democratic.

We were also told that if the Republicans had the chance to eliminate the filibuster they would do so at the first chance they had, so we should do so first. This argument ignores the fact that McConnell DID have the chance to eliminate the filibuster in 2017-2018 and was even asked to by President Trump and refused.

If we don't make this a Senate priority as has been pushed for the last two years are we just conceding that filibuster reform is only actually a priority or even wanted when one party has the trifecta of House, Senate, and Presidency? If the filibuster is such a bad thing shouldn't we get rid of it no mater which party may be able to wield the new power when they have the trifecta in the future (like maybe in 2024 with a 2nd term for President Biden and a Democratic House and Senate, or even a President DeSantis and a Republican House and Senate)?

For anyone still taking a principled stand, IF the Republicans win the Presidency, House and Senate in 2024 you would be in favor of eliminating the filibuster? If not why not? Wouldn't it still be a Jim Crow relic and undemocratic?

As you may be able to tell I am not a fan of getting rid of the filibuster and I am joined by many currently serving Democrats and former President Obama in defending the filibuster (but only when they were in the minority - kind of convenient don't you think).

I predict that there will be no push for filibuster reform in the upcoming Senate and that there will be little if any calls for filibuster reform here on DU.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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With the win in GA and us Democrats having actual control of the Senate, filibuster elimination (Original Post) kelly1mm Dec 2022 OP
No it won't, because both Manchin and Sinema have made it clear they wouldn't support its JohnSJ Dec 2022 #1
Senators Sinema and Manchin have been on record kelly1mm Dec 2022 #2
If you asking me personally, I am against the filibuster period, but for the reasons I mentioned JohnSJ Dec 2022 #4
+1 honest.abe Dec 2022 #5
I think most here agree it will not happen kelly1mm Dec 2022 #7
It won't be a priority. onenote Dec 2022 #3
If the opposition to the filibuster is on principle kelly1mm Dec 2022 #11
the filibuster isn't really a "jim crow relic" onenote Dec 2022 #19
President Obama was the one who said the filibuster was a Jim Crow relic. I agree with you on the kelly1mm Dec 2022 #22
Sinema won't vote for it Demsrule86 Dec 2022 #6
Are you against the filibuster on principle? kelly1mm Dec 2022 #8
Wait until 2024 Johnny2X2X Dec 2022 #9
The 2024 Senate election map favors the repukes. Elwood P Dowd Dec 2022 #13
Yeah, but Biden Johnny2X2X Dec 2022 #14
Why wait if the opposition to the filibuster is based on principle? If it is based on wielding raw kelly1mm Dec 2022 #24
You wait because you might lose Johnny2X2X Dec 2022 #27
If the opposition is based on principle (Jim Crow era relic / undemocratic) why keep it? nt kelly1mm Dec 2022 #28
You keep it to stop crazy Republicans. Johnny2X2X Dec 2022 #29
That position I respect and modstly agree with! I don't want to get rid of the filibuster at all kelly1mm Dec 2022 #30
Mitch doesn't care because all they need is reconciliation & judges. themaguffin Dec 2022 #10
We have 49 votes for it now dsc Dec 2022 #12
Are you sure that all 49 support ending the filibuster? RussBLib Dec 2022 #16
We do not have 49 votes Zeitghost Dec 2022 #18
There aren't 49 votes for getting rid of the filibuster completely. onenote Dec 2022 #21
We had 48 votes for it before but that did not stop numerous Senators arguing for the elimination of kelly1mm Dec 2022 #26
I'm in favor of returning the filibuster to it's original meaning and execution: Sogo Dec 2022 #15
Agree 100%. beaglelover Dec 2022 #17
You'd need Sinema and Manchin BOTH... WarGamer Dec 2022 #20
Yeah, isn't it hilarious? kcr Dec 2022 #23
If the opposition to the filibuster is based on principle then should it not be eliminated kelly1mm Dec 2022 #25
Remote the filibuster to pass what? The Pubs bills that will come out of the House? Amishman Dec 2022 #31

JohnSJ

(91,953 posts)
1. No it won't, because both Manchin and Sinema have made it clear they wouldn't support its
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 01:28 PM
Dec 2022

elimination


kelly1mm

(4,719 posts)
2. Senators Sinema and Manchin have been on record
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 01:49 PM
Dec 2022

As being against changing the filibuster for over a year but the calls both in the Senate and here on DU have continued.

Do you support eliminating the filibuster on principle?

If so would you support the Republicans eliminating the filibuster?

JohnSJ

(91,953 posts)
4. If you asking me personally, I am against the filibuster period, but for the reasons I mentioned
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 02:07 PM
Dec 2022

it won’t happen.

They have already gotten rid of the filibuster for judicial appointments, which was done because the republicans would not allow any Democratic appointments, and McConnel eliminated it for SC appointments

The filibuster is an unDemocratic process in my view, making an already broken system worse.

kelly1mm

(4,719 posts)
7. I think most here agree it will not happen
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 02:44 PM
Dec 2022

And I argue it will not be a priority (or frankly even mentioned) in the Senate this term.

My argument is that the reason it will not be brought up is because it will not benefit the Democrats since the Republicans will control the House. It was never about principle, but rather pure political power. At least if one argued that I could respect that position. What I see as hypocritical is when it would help us we think it is a good thing and an principle we should get rid of the filibuster but when we don’t get any benefit we are, at best indifferent.

onenote

(42,375 posts)
3. It won't be a priority.
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 01:58 PM
Dec 2022

First, Manchin and Sinema are still opposed and there may be others who haven't spoken publicly, but would just as soon not have to vote on it.

Second, it won't change anything since, without the House, even if the filibuster repeal allowed the Senate to pass a bill, it would die in the House if it wasn't something repubs supported.

kelly1mm

(4,719 posts)
11. If the opposition to the filibuster is on principle
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 02:48 PM
Dec 2022

Then what does it matter if it will change anything (meaning we can pass our priorities). If it is a undemocratic Jim Crow relic shouldn’t we support eliminating the filibuster even if we see no benefit immediately or even if the Republicans control the Senate?

onenote

(42,375 posts)
19. the filibuster isn't really a "jim crow relic"
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 05:45 PM
Dec 2022

Last edited Wed Dec 7, 2022, 06:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Indeed, the filibuster -- preventing a vote on a measure in the Senate -- dates back to the 18th Century. The first cloture rule, which allowed debate to be cut off (i.e., allowed for ending a filibuster) was adopted in 1917.

It is true that the filibuster was used in the past to block Civil Rights legislation. However it also has been used in recent years by Democrats as well as Republicans to prevent a vote on a bill. From 2009 through 2014, the Democrats had the Senate majority but were frustrated by Republican filibusters; then from 2015 through 2020, the Republicans held the majority and the Democrats used the filibuster to block Senate bills. Overall, from 2009 through 2020, the filibuster was used to block legislation over 600 times by the Republicans and over 600 times by the Democrats. Which may explain why enthusiasm among Democratic Senators for getting rid of the filibuster is muted. At best, most Democrats might support getting rid of the filibuster for targeted legislation, but not for everything.

kelly1mm

(4,719 posts)
22. President Obama was the one who said the filibuster was a Jim Crow relic. I agree with you on the
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 06:53 PM
Dec 2022

history of the filibuster. I think it was disingenuous to characterize the filibuster as such and it was solely done to pressure the Democratic Senate holdouts to change their position. However, after making such a principled argument it is hard to walk it back.

kelly1mm

(4,719 posts)
8. Are you against the filibuster on principle?
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 02:45 PM
Dec 2022

If so will you support its elimination if the Republicans control the Senate?

Johnny2X2X

(18,745 posts)
9. Wait until 2024
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 02:47 PM
Dec 2022

Dems can take the House back and hold the Senate and White House, then eliminate the filibuster and get some big things done.

Elwood P Dowd

(11,443 posts)
13. The 2024 Senate election map favors the repukes.
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 03:33 PM
Dec 2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_Senate_elections

(snip)

The map for these elections, like in the previous Class 1 Senate election in 2018, is considered by elections analysts to be unfavorable to Democrats, who will be defending 23 of the 33 seats of Class 1.[3] Three Democrats in this class represent states won by Donald Trump in both 2016 and 2020 (Montana, Ohio, and West Virginia), while no Republicans represent states won by Joe Biden in 2020. Further, Democrats are defending seats in seven states that Biden won by a single-digit margin (Arizona, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Michigan, Minnesota, and Maine) while Republicans are defending only two seats in states that Trump won by a single-digit margin (Florida and Texas). In the two most recent senate election cycles that coincided with presidential elections (2016 and 2020), only one senator (Republican Susan Collins of Maine in 2020) has been elected in a state that was won by the presidential nominee of the opposite party.[4]

Johnny2X2X

(18,745 posts)
14. Yeah, but Biden
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 03:39 PM
Dec 2022

Biden is going to be a very strong candidate, he's going to bring some wins. We'll probably lose Montana and West Virginia (Manchin). We can hold the rest and try to win Texas or Florida to hold the Senate. It will be tough, but Dems can do it.

kelly1mm

(4,719 posts)
24. Why wait if the opposition to the filibuster is based on principle? If it is based on wielding raw
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 06:58 PM
Dec 2022

political power we should have just said so with the reasoning being if we can impose our agenda it will be so popular with the public that we would be rewarded electorally. Do you oppose the filibuster on principle? If so would you support the Republicans eliminating it if/when they regain the Senate?

Johnny2X2X

(18,745 posts)
27. You wait because you might lose
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 07:08 PM
Dec 2022

And getting rid of it now is pointless when you don’t have the House. The filibuster won’t even be used over the next 2 years.

Johnny2X2X

(18,745 posts)
29. You keep it to stop crazy Republicans.
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 07:24 PM
Dec 2022

It’s not on principle. It’s on winning and what’s right for the country. Getting rid of it now only takes it away from Dems in the future, doesn’t take it away from Reps now because they have no resin to use it right now.

kelly1mm

(4,719 posts)
30. That position I respect and modstly agree with! I don't want to get rid of the filibuster at all
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 07:33 PM
Dec 2022

but at least you are honest in that you would only want to do it when if it benefited us.

dsc

(52,130 posts)
12. We have 49 votes for it now
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 02:50 PM
Dec 2022

which is one less than needed. We needed Mandella or Beasley to win, which they didn't.

RussBLib

(8,984 posts)
16. Are you sure that all 49 support ending the filibuster?
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 03:43 PM
Dec 2022

I don't recall them voting on it, so the current Dem Senators may not be on the record about it, which gives a lot of cover.

I vaguely recall some analyst suggesting there were a few others who were opposed.to lifting it. Unnamed.

Zeitghost

(3,796 posts)
18. We do not have 49 votes
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 04:07 PM
Dec 2022

Plenty of Senators sitting by and letting Manchin and Sinema take the heat.

onenote

(42,375 posts)
21. There aren't 49 votes for getting rid of the filibuster completely.
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 05:50 PM
Dec 2022

There might be 49 votes for some form of reform of the filibuster. There are a number of proposals floating around.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-every-senate-democrat-has-said-about-filibuster-reform

kelly1mm

(4,719 posts)
26. We had 48 votes for it before but that did not stop numerous Senators arguing for the elimination of
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 07:06 PM
Dec 2022

the filibuster and it being described as a Jim Crow relic and undemocratic and being the subject of 100's of posts here on DU calling for its elimination based (at least in part) on principle.

My arguement is it was never based on principle but rather raw political power (which is fine actually - just say so)

If the filibuster remains in place and somehow the Republicans get the trifecta again I will bet dollars to doughnuts that there will be NUMEROUS Democratic politicians and posters here defending it.

Sogo

(4,963 posts)
15. I'm in favor of returning the filibuster to it's original meaning and execution:
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 03:42 PM
Dec 2022

Filibustering meaning having to actually hold the floor, like "Mr. Smith."

WarGamer

(12,103 posts)
20. You'd need Sinema and Manchin BOTH...
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 05:47 PM
Dec 2022

And WHAT legislation are you going to pass, even with no filibuster... with a GOP House??

lol...

kelly1mm

(4,719 posts)
25. If the opposition to the filibuster is based on principle then should it not be eliminated
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 07:01 PM
Dec 2022

even if it will not move our agenda forward? I mean should we keep what has been described as a Jim Crow relic and undemocratic and the subject of 100's of posts here on DU just because there is no short term benefit? If so then I think the opposition to the filibuster was never based on principle.

Amishman

(5,541 posts)
31. Remote the filibuster to pass what? The Pubs bills that will come out of the House?
Wed Dec 7, 2022, 08:48 PM
Dec 2022

We lost the House, even without the filibuster any bills we get through the Senate will never make it to Joe's desk.

Removing it next session is at best pointless, at worst we take the heat for removing it and give the Pubs an easier path if they ever retake full control.

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