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kentuck

(110,950 posts)
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:24 PM Dec 2022

An indictment and a jury trial but no conviction?

How would you feel if Donald Trump was tried by a jury but they refused to convict?

However, all the facts would come out and he would be totally exposed for the fraud and traitor that he is?

Would it serve any useful purpose to go thru a jury trial and not have a conviction?

Even if 90% of the people believed him guilty, but the jury found him "not guilty", would it be better than no trial at all?

53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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An indictment and a jury trial but no conviction? (Original Post) kentuck Dec 2022 OP
If anyone thinks that... 2naSalit Dec 2022 #1
I would take my chances on a trial nightwing1240 Dec 2022 #2
hung jury . simple Tetrachloride Dec 2022 #3
That's exactly it... regnaD kciN Dec 2022 #12
The trial would take place in DC where the Grand Juries preside. nt Justice matters. Dec 2022 #28
Same Way I Felt When OJ Was Found "Not Guilty" SoCalDavidS Dec 2022 #4
We know MAGAs will lie during jury selection to get on the jury. Irish_Dem Dec 2022 #5
Jury Selection In Criminal Cases Justice matters. Dec 2022 #27
Yes but are they good at detecting people vulnerable to bribery or blackmail? Irish_Dem Dec 2022 #30
The trial does not have to be 'public' in certain circumstances. Justice matters. Dec 2022 #39
Yes, they can tell who will or won't be vulnerable Genki Hikari Dec 2022 #50
Highly unlikely, imo, if DoJ brings the case against him. elleng Dec 2022 #6
TFG would never plead insanity; he's a narcissist and that would be too humiliating. Ocelot II Dec 2022 #11
Right elleng Dec 2022 #16
They'll wheel him into court in a wheelchair Mr.Bill Dec 2022 #17
No jury will find him not guilty unless the prosecutor hasn't prepared the case properly... brooklynite Dec 2022 #7
I tend to agree. elleng Dec 2022 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Dec 2022 #8
He has already lost his mojo. If he is indicted he will delay the trial as long as possible Walleye Dec 2022 #9
Who knows, maybe that's been Mr.Bill Dec 2022 #18
I think it's the only sensible approach, and you know he will put off the trial as long as possible Walleye Dec 2022 #19
NO, retrial republianmushroom Dec 2022 #13
If he isn't indicted and tried, then our laws are meaningless. lees1975 Dec 2022 #14
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Dec 2022 #15
Damn right triron Dec 2022 #20
Laurence Tribe predicts indictments in March-April. Justice matters. Dec 2022 #29
If indicted March-April, trial wouldn't be until December at earliest, probably not until 2024 onenote Dec 2022 #37
Garland could ask the DC Court to 'fast-track' procedures invoking primaries imminent. Justice matters. Dec 2022 #40
They can do this on their own timetable. The cases has been made. lees1975 Dec 2022 #47
High Crimes need to be tried BaronChocula Dec 2022 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Dec 2022 #22
I would be happy that he was tried, just like I'm happy he was impeached. MMBeilis Dec 2022 #23
Welcome To DU ProfessorGAC Dec 2022 #32
Thank you. I'm sure it's going to be fun. MMBeilis Dec 2022 #52
welcome to DU gopiscrap Jan 2023 #53
We'll cross that bridge when we come to it Takket Dec 2022 #24
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Dec 2022 #25
Right? I'm reading this thread thinking I missed the indictment somehow. msfiddlestix Dec 2022 #38
Would the DOJ appeal such verdict if the evidence is super incriminating? nt Justice matters. Dec 2022 #26
No, that'd be Double Jeopardy ITAL Dec 2022 #41
What if there are multiple charges (Counts) and one (or two, or more) of them gets a guilty verdict? Justice matters. Dec 2022 #42
No. Genki Hikari Dec 2022 #45
The insurrectionists whom Trump directed left 5 people DEAD! Emile Dec 2022 #31
Indict them all, they are guilty and everybody knows it. fightforfreedom Dec 2022 #33
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again! old as dirt Dec 2022 #34
I'd be very upset, but I'm not anticipating that. I think the jury verdict in the seditionist case Vinca Dec 2022 #35
If Biden pardoned Trump it would end his presidency, re-election bid. fightforfreedom Dec 2022 #36
Agreed. Justice matters. Dec 2022 #43
Depends on the case the idiot is tried for Genki Hikari Dec 2022 #44
Jury nullification is a real possibility in that scenario... SKKY Dec 2022 #46
This is exactly why there shouldn't be a BIG trial ... jgo Dec 2022 #48
I feel strongly that Trump should face multiple prosecutions in different venues. Just A Box Of Rain Dec 2022 #49
This message was self-deleted by its author Prairie_Seagull Dec 2022 #51

2naSalit

(86,056 posts)
1. If anyone thinks that...
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:27 PM
Dec 2022

The George Floyd protests were a big thing, that will be peanuts compared to the people saying "Fuck NO!"

regnaD kciN

(26,035 posts)
12. That's exactly it...
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:49 PM
Dec 2022

…there’s zero chance you get a jury that will vote unanimously to acquit – and, if the trial is held in D.C., at least a reasonable chance of getting a MAGAt-free jury that could convict.

SoCalDavidS

(9,998 posts)
4. Same Way I Felt When OJ Was Found "Not Guilty"
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:32 PM
Dec 2022

But at least he was tried.

What would the reaction have been if they had never arrested OJ or charged him with Double Murder to begin with?

Irish_Dem

(45,637 posts)
5. We know MAGAs will lie during jury selection to get on the jury.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:33 PM
Dec 2022

And we know Trump will try to bribe and threaten jury members.

That is his history.

Justice matters.

(6,874 posts)
27. Jury Selection In Criminal Cases
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 02:28 AM
Dec 2022

When selecting a jury, the federal or state district pulls names from a variety of sources, including registered voters, unemployment beneficiaries, and people with driver’s licenses or state identification cards.

This is known as a “jury pool” and varies in size on a case-by-case basis. The potential jurors are selected at random by a computer program. If you are selected for jury duty, you will receive a notice in the mail that informs you of the date and time that you must attend court proceedings. There are various exemptions that can be made in order to get out of jury duty (usually based on health reasons), but in general, if you are selected for jury duty, you are required by law to attend.

After a jury pool is selected, the process of “voir dire” begins. This is when the attorneys and court begin to narrow down the pool to the jurors that will decide the case. Most states require anywhere from 6 to 12 people to be part of a jury, and up to 6 alternates are selected to take the place of the main jurors if needed. The potential jurors are moved in small groups to sit in the jury box, which is the box in the courtroom in which the jury sits during trial.

The voir dire process tends to vary from state to state, but it generally involves potential jurors being interviewed about their personal backgrounds. The judge and attorneys will ask about their beliefs and employment history to ensure that there isn’t a conflict of interest with the case.

https://aizmanlaw.com/jury-selection-criminal-cases/


The voir dire process includes more scrutiny steps (read in full).

Glenn Kirschner said the DOJ is very good at detecting biased potential jurors.

Irish_Dem

(45,637 posts)
30. Yes but are they good at detecting people vulnerable to bribery or blackmail?
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 07:50 AM
Dec 2022

And even if they can, not a legit reason to dismiss a potential jury member?

We know that Trump uses carrot and stick to manipulate people to do his bidding.

He has been able to get very seasoned and experience attorneys to commit crimes for him.

I think it is naive to assume any process where Trump is involved will go smoothly.

Justice matters.

(6,874 posts)
39. The trial does not have to be 'public' in certain circumstances.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 02:29 PM
Dec 2022

It's up to the Judge to declare it 'closed' (to protect witnesses and jurors, for example).

When Can the Courtroom Be Closed in Criminal Proceedings?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=17501989

The trial even can be held 'in absentia' (only attorneys, judge and jurors).

 

Genki Hikari

(1,766 posts)
50. Yes, they can tell who will or won't be vulnerable
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:32 PM
Dec 2022

If you're being considered for a high-profile case, you will be required to fill out a juror questionnaire asking for your name, age, education level and where you work (if you do). You also certify on that form that you are QUALIFIED to be on the jury. It's the usual stuff about being 18+ and a resident of the jurisdiction where the trial is held, but it will also include requirements that you be of good moral character and that you have no misdemeanor or felony indictments or convictions on your record.

With that questionnaire in hand, most attorneys will run a background check on you to verify that you told the truth about those things. If they find anything hinky they don't like that indicates you would be vulnerable to blackmail or bribery, they will have you off that jury in a heartbeat.

As for "seasoned and experienced" attorneys, the bouffant bozo hasn't had a decent one of those in over a decade now. Attorneys he could call upon who were once good at the job have lost their minds--the Kraken cow, Ghouliani, etc. They have let their MAGA stupidity rot even their legal know-how.



elleng

(130,152 posts)
6. Highly unlikely, imo, if DoJ brings the case against him.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:33 PM
Dec 2022

Insanity defense might get him off, but if that's likely, it's also likely he'll PLEA insanity!!!

Ocelot II

(115,280 posts)
11. TFG would never plead insanity; he's a narcissist and that would be too humiliating.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:48 PM
Dec 2022

And anyhow, he's not the sort of crazy that would support an insanity defense - he knows exactly what he's doing and he doesn't care that it's wrong or illegal.

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
17. They'll wheel him into court in a wheelchair
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:56 PM
Dec 2022

babbling incoherently. That will be the final card they have to play.

brooklynite

(93,870 posts)
7. No jury will find him not guilty unless the prosecutor hasn't prepared the case properly...
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:34 PM
Dec 2022

At most you'd have a hung jury.

elleng

(130,152 posts)
10. I tend to agree.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:46 PM
Dec 2022

DoJ messed up a 'small' 9/11 case for which I was a juror, essentially a swindler seeking funds, but badly prepared and argued, so we the jury said 'not guilty.' Won't happen with trmp as defendant.

Response to kentuck (Original post)

Walleye

(30,723 posts)
9. He has already lost his mojo. If he is indicted he will delay the trial as long as possible
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:39 PM
Dec 2022

By the time it comes to trial I don’t think he’ll have a lot of fans left. They will have moved onto the tinpot dictator DeSantis. One thing about MAGATs when they turn on somebody it gets severe

Mr.Bill

(24,104 posts)
18. Who knows, maybe that's been
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:58 PM
Dec 2022

the DOJ strategy all along. Wait until no one cares enough anymore to defend him in a jury room.

Walleye

(30,723 posts)
19. I think it's the only sensible approach, and you know he will put off the trial as long as possible
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 11:04 PM
Dec 2022

lees1975

(3,724 posts)
14. If he isn't indicted and tried, then our laws are meaningless.
Tue Dec 27, 2022, 10:50 PM
Dec 2022

Either the law applies to him, or it doesn't and if he doesn't go to trial, there's no law that applies to him. Open the prisons, turn everyone loose and fire all law enforcement because we won't need them. Everyone can just do their own thing and see how long they can survive.

The DOJ is on borrowed time now, and if they want to get a conviction that means anything, specifically, putting Trump in prison and keeping him from running for office, they must get this done. We're two years out from the event itself, and plenty of other convictions are happening. It's time for him to be indicted, held and convictied. No more excuses.

Response to lees1975 (Reply #14)

Justice matters.

(6,874 posts)
29. Laurence Tribe predicts indictments in March-April.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 02:37 AM
Dec 2022

Either in the documents case or in the insurrection case (or in both cases).

That would set a trial date around June, and appeals to follow up to the USSC if need be.

onenote

(42,379 posts)
37. If indicted March-April, trial wouldn't be until December at earliest, probably not until 2024
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 09:34 AM
Dec 2022

Manafort was indicted on October 30, 2017. His trial started July 31, 2018 -- nine months later.
Stone was indicted on January 24, 2019. His trial started November 5, 2019 -- 9.5 months later.

It will take a least that long, if not longer before any trial of Trump begins after any indictment is handed down.

Justice matters.

(6,874 posts)
40. Garland could ask the DC Court to 'fast-track' procedures invoking primaries imminent.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 02:41 PM
Dec 2022

And the sheer amount of evidence collected.

And the Judge could make the procedures 'closed' to the public (to protect witnesses and jurors).
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=17501989

And the case could even be heard 'in absentia' (only prosecutors, defense attorneys, jurors, the press) if need be.

lees1975

(3,724 posts)
47. They can do this on their own timetable. The cases has been made.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:05 PM
Dec 2022

What's left to take any time? Get moving and get it done and stop making excuses. They can do this whenever they please. No more stalling.

Response to BaronChocula (Reply #21)

Response to Takket (Reply #24)

msfiddlestix

(7,265 posts)
38. Right? I'm reading this thread thinking I missed the indictment somehow.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 11:38 AM
Dec 2022

Honestly, the singular reason I browse DU every morning is to seek announcements he's been indicted/charged/tried/convicted and sentenced to life in behind bars in maximum security.

It hasn't been a rewarding experience so far, but the chorus of "keep hope alive" rings in my head.

Justice matters.

(6,874 posts)
42. What if there are multiple charges (Counts) and one (or two, or more) of them gets a guilty verdict?
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 02:58 PM
Dec 2022

While all the remaining ones get a Not Guilty verdict?

Or bring the charges one at a time?

Emile

(21,905 posts)
31. The insurrectionists whom Trump directed left 5 people DEAD!
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 08:01 AM
Dec 2022

Trump attempted to overthrow our democracy and must face justice!

 

old as dirt

(1,972 posts)
34. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 08:29 AM
Dec 2022

Not Guilty is not possible. A Hung Jury is, I suppose. Let him spend the rest of his life in court, if not in jail.

Vinca

(50,170 posts)
35. I'd be very upset, but I'm not anticipating that. I think the jury verdict in the seditionist case
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 08:59 AM
Dec 2022

(Elmer Stuart Rhoades and company) was a big wake up call to everyone - including Trump - who thinks it's just fine to plot a coup. My concern, which I really, really hope is unfounded, is that Biden would pardon him in an effort to "heal the country."

Justice matters.

(6,874 posts)
43. Agreed.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 03:04 PM
Dec 2022

It would 'unite' the country against him and that would be dumber than dumb.

The country as it is, with the extreme-right cable media propagandists for profits, the maga Qult and the stoopid criminal repub politicians will not 'unite' but elect desantanus...

 

Genki Hikari

(1,766 posts)
44. Depends on the case the idiot is tried for
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 03:59 PM
Dec 2022

If the trial is for the stolen documents, tax evasion, tax fraud, or the Georgia election tampering, then I don't see a jury giving an outright innocent verdict. A hung jury is the best he could hope for with any of those.

I'd like to think 12 Americans are smart enough to grasp his guilt in plotting J6, but the cynic in me fears that most Americans are so irredeemably stupid that they'd accept whatever excuse he or his shysters make up to let him walk on that. Hope for a trial held in DC for this one. That jury pool is our best bet for holding the scumbag accountable.

SKKY

(11,772 posts)
46. Jury nullification is a real possibility in that scenario...
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:05 PM
Dec 2022

...and you gotta know MAGA nation would be falling all over themselves to "plant" jurors. But, it's all still worth the risk because there is no scenario where a prosecutor would NOT put him on the stand. And an even less likely probability of him not perjuring himself at least 15 times a day. At that point, his con is exposed, and a judge decides what happens after that. I'd take my chances.

jgo

(870 posts)
48. This is exactly why there shouldn't be a BIG trial ...
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:20 PM
Dec 2022

Instead of putting all of the eggs in one basket, break up the indictments into multiple trials. One for submitting false documents. Another one for contempt. Another for perjury, etc. Unfortunately, for some reason that I don't think I'll ever understand, that is not the way the legal system works.

 

Just A Box Of Rain

(5,104 posts)
49. I feel strongly that Trump should face multiple prosecutions in different venues.
Wed Dec 28, 2022, 04:25 PM
Dec 2022

I also think that failing to convict him on the charges would be highly problematic.

Therefore, it is imperative that the cases be prepared with the ultimate care. With rock-solid evidence.

The DOJ and Jack Smith seem to understand the reality on the Federal level, and it seems like the prosecution team is in good hands.

Response to kentuck (Original post)

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