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Sogo

(4,962 posts)
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 11:46 AM Jun 2023

Here's what could win us a lot of rural votes:

The WH announces an initiative to work with vehicle manufacturers to make sure electric pickups have the towing capacity needed for work on the farm. As it is now, batteries are quickly drained with not even much hauling.

It's a real concern among farmers and ranchers who depend upon their pickups. If an electric truck can't meet their needs, and they have to keep relying on gas powered vehicles (which will become more and more expensive to operate with fewer and fewer people using gas) then food production costs will soar, and so will food costs in the grocery stores.

Farmers and ranchers would feel that someone has their backs if such a program were announced and promoted.

I live in rural America; I'm a farm owner; I know what I'm talking about here....

39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Here's what could win us a lot of rural votes: (Original Post) Sogo Jun 2023 OP
it will take a lot of effort to get farmers to even agree to try drray23 Jun 2023 #1
Not so sure about that MuseRider Jun 2023 #3
I think you are right TheRealNorth Jun 2023 #5
yup, the EPA is viewed as a nuisance out here Amishman Jun 2023 #36
I knew there would be this kind of kneejerk reaction to this post. Sogo Jun 2023 #15
really ? just because you are a democrat does not mean the majority of rural america vote as such. drray23 Jun 2023 #18
Farmers are a lot more sophisticated than people tend to give them credit for. jaxexpat Jun 2023 #31
Exactly. MuseRider Jun 2023 #2
That Musk design was ridiculous...he had no idea of what was functional... brush Jun 2023 #10
+1 2naSalit Jun 2023 #13
Same here Bayard Jun 2023 #16
Have you looked? inthewind21 Jun 2023 #20
I wish they would list range Red Mountain Jun 2023 #22
And there is the other thing MuseRider Jun 2023 #27
Nice post 'Sogo'... democratsruletheday Jun 2023 #4
I know some farm owners EYESORE 9001 Jun 2023 #6
Yes, you are correct.... Sogo Jun 2023 #8
how about small scale anaerobic digesters? mopinko Jun 2023 #12
You are inthewind21 Jun 2023 #19
Condescend much? EYESORE 9001 Jun 2023 #35
Are *you* aware that farmers don't do all of their work close to home? ExWhoDoesntCare Jun 2023 #39
EV batteries do not drain too fast for farmers to use...hauling a load as much drain as if gas. Alexander Of Assyria Jun 2023 #25
Is there a Farmers' Group promoting this to the Administration? Just curious! Deuce Jun 2023 #7
Absolutely correct... MiHale Jun 2023 #9
Yes. There are a lot of you out there.... Sogo Jun 2023 #11
+1 2naSalit Jun 2023 #14
Caterpillar has prototype electric trucks and excavators. PufPuf23 Jun 2023 #17
I've heard similar from RV'ers. Mysterian Jun 2023 #21
Question for OP: Way back in 2004, I remember someone describing a friend of theirs... BlueCheeseAgain Jun 2023 #23
No! James48 Jun 2023 #24
Diesel fuel isn't going away soon, especially in the ag industries. hunter Jun 2023 #26
Maybe push Hemp Diesel as a stopgap IbogaProject Jun 2023 #28
Family farmers, at least, are nearly always on the brink of poverty. Ms. Toad Jun 2023 #29
Many of the biggest farms are family farms Kaleva Jun 2023 #33
That depends. Ms. Toad Jun 2023 #38
If demand for gasoline and diesel fuels goes way down, wouldn't prices go down instead of up? MichMan Jun 2023 #30
The oil companies will cut way back on the supply if there is little to no demand.... Sogo Jun 2023 #37
Just a small percentage of rural people are farmers Kaleva Jun 2023 #32
They'll have to fix the economics of EVs first madville Jun 2023 #34

drray23

(7,587 posts)
1. it will take a lot of effort to get farmers to even agree to try
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 11:54 AM
Jun 2023

Many of them are right wingers and will dismiss the idea outright.

MuseRider

(34,058 posts)
3. Not so sure about that
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 11:56 AM
Jun 2023

but they will buck at the prices. It will be difficult I think because of more than their political feelings.

TheRealNorth

(9,435 posts)
5. I think you are right
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 12:00 PM
Jun 2023

They are wedded to big oil, and I think will most will reflexively dismiss electric vehicles.

If you lived your entire life in the country, you never had to deal with all the issues that came with automobile air pollution (outside of acid rain).

Amishman

(5,540 posts)
36. yup, the EPA is viewed as a nuisance out here
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 04:22 PM
Jun 2023

The amount of angry rants about design changes to gas cans and wood stoves because of environmental rules would shock you.

Sogo

(4,962 posts)
15. I knew there would be this kind of kneejerk reaction to this post.
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 12:44 PM
Jun 2023

I just didn't think it would be the first response.

Pull your head out! Rural America is not a monolithic voting block!

drray23

(7,587 posts)
18. really ? just because you are a democrat does not mean the majority of rural america vote as such.
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 01:00 PM
Jun 2023

As a matter of fact, can you point me to rural counties that are voting for democrats? I am sure you have seen that famous map that shows the votes during last term. Small slivers of blue on the coasts (but with a lot of people because of population density) and everything else red in rural america. So yes, it's a monolith until we can change that.

Do you honestly think that offering electric vehicles that can do the job that farmers need is going to magically make them vote blue?

That is not accounting for the decades of indoctrination that they were subjected to by the right-wing media and politicians. The GOP has been masterful at cultivating this antagonism between urban and rural people.

It may be the right thing to do in any case, but companies are not going to produce these types of vehicles unless there is a demand, and the demand won't be there until we can convince people to give it a try. How do you do this?

Did you discuss it with your neighbors? Are they open to the idea or just think it's another liberal nonsense? I am really curious to know.

jaxexpat

(6,701 posts)
31. Farmers are a lot more sophisticated than people tend to give them credit for.
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 03:17 PM
Jun 2023

While they may seem to be in thrall of those who push internal combustion engines, they're bottom line is reliable horsepower. It's also worth noting that the fertilizers as well as the herbicides required to continue feeding the world are petrochemical dependent. They know better than most just how ecologically destructive the biological desert approach to agriculture really is, but they're also realistic businessmen and until there are alternate techniques which can meet the bottom line as well as does the status quo we're/they're stuck with big oil's hands around our throats.

The generalizations about red states and farmers is a misinterpretation of the facts. Farmers are a minority of the population everywhere, even in farm country. The manpower requirements per acre are surprisingly low. The profits per acre are also pretty low. Without unencumbered land ownership the business is doomed to be taken over by corporate entities. It requires thousands of acres to support a single family and the investment is immense. The average combine costs around $500,000 without the attachments. Planters and the tractors to pull them with cost $250,000. Crop inputs; fertilizers, chemicals, seeds and fuel will eat up 50% of the gross per acre income. Hauling charges will take 10% off the top. The point is that these guys cannot afford a single slipup, or they're broke and up to their ears in unpayable debt. If they appear to be reliably "conservative" there is good reason for them to have little or no faith in the words of non-agricultural America.

The most galling thing to me is how Republican politicians shamelessly play them because they realize the local economy and voter sentiment goes the way of the farmer. If they can convince the farmers to support their spiel, they're safe. It's been that way in rural America since the beginning. There was a time when the farmers trusted Democrats more because the Republicans they knew were mostly bankers or merchant class types who sat at the top of rural society while dismissing rural people and their culture. Were it not for the lingering memory of Abraham Lincoln, midwestern Republicans would have died off 80 years ago. As farmers became more sophisticated and integrated into the serious economics of agribusiness, they found no lasting home in the Democratic party which has become pretty well totally invested into the urban sector, and why not, as there are actually very few farmers' votes anyway.

MuseRider

(34,058 posts)
2. Exactly.
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 11:55 AM
Jun 2023

I would love to try pulling my 3 horses in my trailer behind an electric truck. I had to get a bigger engine than my old truck had just to pull it.

I do not use it anymore really but if I had to I will need it. Other than that there are always hay trailers, pulling a busted tractor behind you etc.

I loved that first design Musk put out with the fancy sided truck. LOL.

brush

(53,467 posts)
10. That Musk design was ridiculous...he had no idea of what was functional...
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 12:20 PM
Jun 2023

for a working truck. The guy's no genius, just a self-promoter that he is one.

Bayard

(21,802 posts)
16. Same here
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 12:59 PM
Jun 2023

My Warmblood gelding weighs 1,500 pounds. My steel horse trailer weighs 3,000, and is a 5th wheel/gooseneck. My old 1997 Chevy dually pulls that load with ease, with 454 Vortech engine. Bought it new. I can also haul 40 bales of hay at 50 lb each, and a whole bunch of feed and bedding, firewood, gardening supplies, concrete blocks, anything.

I don't see an EV being produced with that much power and hauling capacity, but I'd love to have one. Probably cost at least a hundred grand though.

MuseRider

(34,058 posts)
27. And there is the other thing
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 02:52 PM
Jun 2023

it would have to be that expensive.

I would buy one in an instant if I could but that will never be an option with the likely cost.




EYESORE 9001

(25,812 posts)
6. I know some farm owners
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 12:01 PM
Jun 2023

who may give it a try if there were better infrastructure for charging. Some areas are so remote that charging stations are an issue. I’ve never heard this mentioned, but what about subsidies for building charging stations on farms that would use electric-powered implements? Perhaps building them in even small towns in farm country? Just thinking out loud…

mopinko

(69,806 posts)
12. how about small scale anaerobic digesters?
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 12:38 PM
Jun 2023

i dont know how big they usually are, but the town of amana ia is powered by a single dairy farm w a digester. seems like a version appropriate for a farm w a small herd could be independent.

solar is a rly good investment w substantial incentives. illinois will cut you a check for adding capacity to the grid. it’s about $80/kw capacity. i am about to add them to my 2flat, after installing a heat pump. of the $45k the system will cost, less than half that comes out of my pocket. the credit for my system will b $13k.
even w/o incentives i would do it, cuz no investment i can find yields $200+/mo on even $40k.
the bldg now has heat and air included, making it worth about $500/mo per unit more in rent. all year. i expect to have a few hi bills per year, but at LEAST 6 mos out of the year i will have almost zero bill.

i know the green new deal had some interesting ag stuff that all got dumped. there’s so much low hanging fruit in ag. and some of it seems like it ought to appeal to farmers. i mean, turn that manure headache into checks and free power?
who knows if we can get through to the drain bamaged among us, tho.

 

inthewind21

(4,616 posts)
19. You are
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 01:56 PM
Jun 2023

Aware you can charge an EV right in your garage, barn, front yard wherever on your property and don't need a special "charging station" built right? Ranging anywhere from 199 to 800 depending on what you are wanting. 110v, 120V, 220V and 240V

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=EV+chargers&crid=ECCXJSURGXX1&sprefix=ev+chargers%2Caps%2C229&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

EYESORE 9001

(25,812 posts)
35. Condescend much?
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 03:59 PM
Jun 2023

JFC. I was talking about incentives to upgrade their electric service in the form of tax breaks. You really should work on that attitude.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
39. Are *you* aware that farmers don't do all of their work close to home?
Fri Jun 2, 2023, 02:19 AM
Jun 2023

They have to pick up supplies and transport crops and livestock, often quite far from their farm, and those supplies, crops and livestock don't weight what people do.

They're not buzzing around town with the wife and kids to the grocer's or mall. They're usually, you know, working when they're on the road.

MiHale

(9,593 posts)
9. Absolutely correct...
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 12:13 PM
Jun 2023

Nailed it. And just because I may drive a big vehicle doesn’t mean I don’t care about the environment. It doesn’t mean I’m republican.

PufPuf23

(8,687 posts)
17. Caterpillar has prototype electric trucks and excavators.
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 01:00 PM
Jun 2023

Agree with you. Rural raised and rural old. Other stuff in the middle.

Pretty sure John Deere does as well.

But price and infrastructure and just getting the bugs out are in the future.

Caterpillar Successfully Demonstrates First Battery Electric Large Mining Truck and Invests in Sustainable Proving Ground

https://www.caterpillar.com/en/news/corporate-press-releases/h/caterpillar-succesfully-demonstrates-first-battery-electric-large-mining-truck.html

This Electric Caterpillar Excavator Is the Tesla of Heavy Construction Equipment

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26234/this-electric-caterpillar-excavator-is-the-tesla-of-heavy-construction-equipment

BlueCheeseAgain

(1,654 posts)
23. Question for OP: Way back in 2004, I remember someone describing a friend of theirs...
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 02:22 PM
Jun 2023

... who was a farmer and undecided between Kerry and Bush. Despite not really liking Bush's record, the farmer friend ended up voting for him anyway. The sense the person got was that the farmer felt innately that Bush and the GOP appreciated farmers like him, whereas Kerry and the Dems saw him as a possible vote and a person who might be helped by their policies, but ultimately didn't really appreciate him or his profession.

I'm wondering if you get that sense often around your friends and neighbors? I do feel a lot of what prevents Dems from doing better in the Plains is a perception that Dems are a more urban/suburban party that don't value rural communities and even look down on them. (You can see that in this thread!) I don't know what we can do about that, but it starts with understanding and valuing these folks and their way of life.

James48

(4,416 posts)
24. No!
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 02:45 PM
Jun 2023

Farmers can continue to use gasoline powered trucks for the foreseeable future.

Farmers make up only a small percentage of Americans. We shouldn’t be spending all our efforts trying to make a battery for farm trucks. Do it where it makes sense. Stop wasting money, however, trying to build more than we need for farmers. It’s not worth the cost to society.

The energy future will be a mix.
Gasoline
Diesel
Electric,
Wind,
Solar,
And things we haven’t even thought of yet.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
26. Diesel fuel isn't going away soon, especially in the ag industries.
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 02:48 PM
Jun 2023

Neither is jet fuel in the aviation industries.

What needs to go away is diesel and jet fuels made from fossil fuels.

Fortunately there's now technology to make fuels from atmospheric or oceanic carbon dioxide using nuclear power. Such fuels would be carbon neutral and wouldn't require any massive changes in agricultural practices or infrastructure. Let the farmers keep their existing trucks and farm equipment.

It's also possible to make these fuels from bio-mass. Unfortunately agriculture itself has huge environmental footprints. These fuels derived from biomass are hardly any better than fossil fuels. In many cases they are worse, as when natural forests are obliterated for bio-fuel production.

Here in California diesel fuel made from biomass is readily available. I suppose that same biomass could be burned in a power plant to recharge electric vehicles but that would require major infrastructure changes and probably wouldn't do much to reduce the overall environmental footprint of agriculture.

Personally, I don't think all-electric vehicles are going to "save the world." All they really do is shift adverse environmental impacts from one place to another.

IbogaProject

(2,693 posts)
28. Maybe push Hemp Diesel as a stopgap
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 02:56 PM
Jun 2023

Diesel engines were made for hemp oil and Mr Diesel was aghast when they started using petroleum in them. There are issues that all the gaskets might need to be reworked or fuel additives need to be perfected to handle that issue. Yes we need to push to win Every Congressional District and that means not just going for narrow victories.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
29. Family farmers, at least, are nearly always on the brink of poverty.
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 02:59 PM
Jun 2023

My father, after farming for more than 2 decades finally had an income which matched my first year teaching salary ($10,500 in 1978-79) That's about $48,000 in today's income. He raised 5 kids on that income. Most farm families have to supplement income to make ends meet.

The cost of electric vehicles is a non-starter.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
38. That depends.
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 06:26 PM
Jun 2023

Size of a farm needed to sustain a family varies tremendously by location. My farm in Nebraska (which sustained my father's family and his cousin's family), would probably sustain 10 families in Ohio, and less than one in Wyoming.

It also depends on what you are farming (critters v. people food v. critter food), methods of farming.

But traditional family farms are not large in terms of the money they spin off.

More and more family farms are being merged into corporate farms (sometimes with a family name), in which the farmers are either no longer farming or are working as employees. Many farmers have a second job to make ends meet, and most wives are also employed (rather than keeping the home place as they have in the past).

There are exceptions, of course. I can think of two in the farming community in which I grew up of around 4000.

I don't know this organization - but it is relatively accurate based on my experience: https://www.growingamerica.com/features/2019/06/glimpse-economics-family-farms

MichMan

(11,786 posts)
30. If demand for gasoline and diesel fuels goes way down, wouldn't prices go down instead of up?
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 03:07 PM
Jun 2023

Last edited Thu Jun 1, 2023, 05:38 PM - Edit history (1)

High Supply-Low Demand

Sogo

(4,962 posts)
37. The oil companies will cut way back on the supply if there is little to no demand....
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 05:55 PM
Jun 2023

Many will stop producing all together.

Therefore, it will be low supply at a high price for the remaining demand.

IMHO.



Kaleva

(36,146 posts)
32. Just a small percentage of rural people are farmers
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 03:20 PM
Jun 2023

There are 46,000 farms in Michigan and that number is declining by several hundred each year

"About 1.8 million residents — nearly 20 percent of Michigan’s population — live in rural areas of the state, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture classifications. "

https://www.bridgemi.com/business-watch/much-michigan-rural-what-will-it-take-small-towns-thrive

madville

(7,397 posts)
34. They'll have to fix the economics of EVs first
Thu Jun 1, 2023, 03:57 PM
Jun 2023

Ford recently stated they are losing 108% on every Ford F-150 Lightning EV truck they sell. So a truck they sell for $80,000 is costing them about $170,000 to produce.

But to the original point, from What I have seen in the Lightning FB groups, towing anything with significant weight, say 6,000-8,000 lbs, is cutting the range by 2/3, basically if they normally would get 300 miles to a charge, they get 100 miles when towing.

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