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PlanetaryOrbit

(155 posts)
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 11:12 PM Feb 2014

I think some societal double standards come down to "counterbalancing."

Some people have protested against the fact that men are often depicted as stupid in movies, sitcoms and commercials, and that violence by women against men on television is often perceived as "comedic" rather than abusive.

And let's be fair; that is a double standard, why should it be any more acceptable for a woman to slap a man in the face than vice versa?


That being said, I think the real reason why such a double standard persists is because of "counterbalancing": Men are typically considered the stronger gender, and historically have had many advantages over women; therefore these double standards are acceptable because they help "balance" things and make the scales more "even."



I'm not saying this is right. I'm just saying, I think this is how or why these double standards exist.


Any thoughts?

40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I think some societal double standards come down to "counterbalancing." (Original Post) PlanetaryOrbit Feb 2014 OP
Possibly, but KT2000 Feb 2014 #1
The "men as oafs" trope in popular culture is a subset of the "adults are incompetent idiots" trope Ex Lurker Feb 2014 #36
Yes - respect for one's elders KT2000 Feb 2014 #38
The comedy of female violence comes from the marginalization of female agency. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #2
If it debases both sides, then it really should stop. PlanetaryOrbit Feb 2014 #3
No. Society would never be okay with glorifying the subordinate dominating. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #4
Spot on. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #5
It never ceases to amaze me the leaps that you make kcr Feb 2014 #6
GC said "(violence by women) is not seen as actual violence" lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #10
Of course you don't see it as an absurd leap kcr Feb 2014 #11
And yet, you haven't offered an alternative argument. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #12
Oh, I already have. kcr Feb 2014 #14
Violence by anyone is Not okay and should be avoided as a last resort. Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #7
+1 treestar Feb 2014 #8
Why isn't it a double standard? PlanetaryOrbit Feb 2014 #9
It's not that it isn't considered wrong kcr Feb 2014 #15
Gibberish. If it was wrong it wouldn't be funny. nt lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #16
Talk about gibberish kcr Feb 2014 #17
Are you *trying* to make my argument? lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #18
You said, "If it was wrong, it wouldn't be funny" kcr Feb 2014 #19
Yes. To the people buying the soap sold on these shows, it's not wrong. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #20
You are doing a heap of conflating kcr Feb 2014 #21
It is not like that treestar Feb 2014 #24
Sooo... men are the dominant group, therefore it's funny when women hit them? lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #27
Of course. treestar Feb 2014 #31
I've known a few women AgingAmerican Feb 2014 #28
Wrong but not equally so treestar Feb 2014 #23
Any violence by either gender against the other gender is plain wrong. HappyMe Feb 2014 #13
The double standard is sexist in itself, though. delta17 Feb 2014 #22
"OK for a woman to hit a man, because they are weak and harmless. " exactly. nt seabeyond Feb 2014 #33
Just to clarify. delta17 Feb 2014 #35
oh, i agree. i had a brother who a girl hit him. it hurt. it pissed me off. i had an oldest son seabeyond Feb 2014 #37
Some people are painfully stupid or wilfully blind. Spider Jerusalem Feb 2014 #25
^^^^ It is meant to make women feel that the crap jobs that fall to them are more important Squinch Feb 2014 #26
"men are depicted as being stupid ABOUT... Domestic chores, usually" yes. and a lot of men seabeyond Feb 2014 #34
If you don't mind my asking, who are you referring to as stupid or blind? PlanetaryOrbit Feb 2014 #39
IMO it's only in the movies and TV where a woman slaps a man in the face, and of course raccoon Feb 2014 #29
Not true. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2014 #30
it should not be acceptable. back in my day, a slap was suppose to be the woman thing to do and men seabeyond Feb 2014 #32
That may be true. AverageJoe90 Feb 2014 #40

KT2000

(20,867 posts)
1. Possibly, but
Mon Feb 10, 2014, 12:04 AM
Feb 2014

another aspect to consider, especially in commercials, is that the target audience is women because they are the ones who make purchases. At least that is how the advertisers see it.

Ex Lurker

(3,918 posts)
36. The "men as oafs" trope in popular culture is a subset of the "adults are incompetent idiots" trope
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 08:00 PM
Feb 2014

I'd love to see a TV show where the parents had a modicum of common sense and the kids weren't wisecracking smartasses.

Now get off my lawn!

KT2000

(20,867 posts)
38. Yes - respect for one's elders
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 08:58 PM
Feb 2014

is a thing of the past I am afraid. If I had rolled my eyes and cracked wise about my parents being stupid, which is common fare on TV now - all I can say is it would not have been good for me.

Have a friend who is from China. There, the respect for elders is so ingrained from birth. She said that when growing up, she used to sit on the steps with her grandmother and share some fruit, like an apple. The children ate the peelings and the grandmother got the rest of the apple. That was to show her respect and that they wanted her to live a long time so she got the best.

And there- men are NEVER the oafs - but that's another story. But here, I wish more men would complain to the advertisers.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
2. The comedy of female violence comes from the marginalization of female agency.
Mon Feb 10, 2014, 12:08 AM
Feb 2014

Not from glorifying it.

The reason why we laugh at such things is because we don't take it seriously. And the reason why we don't take it seriously is because we look down upon women as physically inferior.

It's not a matter of balance. In fact, such comedy only further serves to debase women.

PlanetaryOrbit

(155 posts)
3. If it debases both sides, then it really should stop.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 11:24 PM
Feb 2014

But I think the reason society considers violence by women against men on TV to be okay is because it represents the "weaker" gender beating up the "stronger" one.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
4. No. Society would never be okay with glorifying the subordinate dominating.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 11:32 PM
Feb 2014

That would run contrary to the entire socio-sexual hegemony.

The reason why it's comical is that it is not viewed as actual violence. We see it like we would see a toddler hitting its parent. Potentially evocative but totally harmless. This is debasing women, not men. Although we can argue that the entire spectacle, in the end, dooms us all.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
5. Spot on.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 11:48 PM
Feb 2014

Not viewed as actual violence. Absolutely true. The cycle of IPV is aggravated by the fact that half of all violent heterosexual relationships are reciprocally violent and that 70% of the nonreciprocal violence is perpetrated by the woman. We pretend this doesn't exist that denial is a major contributor to the chronic nature of IPV.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
10. GC said "(violence by women) is not seen as actual violence"
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 11:19 AM
Feb 2014

My observation doesn't seem to be a leap at all, but a simple and obvious proof of (his/her) statement.

This may be a case of a blind squirrel stumbling over a nut, but nevertheless... yay squirrel.

kcr

(15,522 posts)
11. Of course you don't see it as an absurd leap
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 11:22 AM
Feb 2014

why would you? Especially when you take a statement out of context and proclaim it to be simple! and obvious! to fit your bizarre conclusion.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
12. And yet, you haven't offered an alternative argument.
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 11:24 AM
Feb 2014

Are you disagreeing with GC that "violence by women isn't seen as actual violence"? Or are you disagreeing with me when I say "violence by women isn't seen as actual violence"?

I guess if I could phrase it in such a way that indicates women are victimized by their perpetration of violence without consequence and for humorous effect, or that men are privileged by being more heavily punished for the same crime, I could get you to agree with me too.

Sadly, there is a limit to my creative writing ability, and ability to prevaricate.

kcr

(15,522 posts)
14. Oh, I already have.
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 11:29 AM
Feb 2014

I've already had the argument with you about your false claims that women perpetrate violence more often than men. I'm sure I'm not the only one. It gets debunked all the time.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
7. Violence by anyone is Not okay and should be avoided as a last resort.
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 12:18 AM
Feb 2014

Otherwise, GravityCollapse is correct with his analysis.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
8. +1
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 12:45 AM
Feb 2014

That is it exactly.

People keep insisting it's just the same. Sort of like the complaints of no White Entertainment Channel. It's just ignoring history to call it a double standard.

PlanetaryOrbit

(155 posts)
9. Why isn't it a double standard?
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 03:13 AM
Feb 2014

Shouldn't all violence by either gender against either gender be considered wrong?

kcr

(15,522 posts)
15. It's not that it isn't considered wrong
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 11:38 AM
Feb 2014

the point is you don't ignore the inequality and the history. For example, when you do, you start getting crap like claims that women are actually more violent. Claiming it's a double standard ignores the inequality. But pointing that out isn't saying it's right for anyone to be violent. No one should be violent toward another human being.

kcr

(15,522 posts)
17. Talk about gibberish
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 11:48 AM
Feb 2014

Yes, you're right. Because no one ever laughs at misogynistic humor, or racist humor, or humor about disabled people. Oh, wait...

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
18. Are you *trying* to make my argument?
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 11:53 AM
Feb 2014

Yes, I'd have to agree that humor based on hitting men is very much like humor about picking on racial minorities or kicking a crutch out from under a crippled kid.

Because the crippled kid won't fight back.

kcr

(15,522 posts)
19. You said, "If it was wrong, it wouldn't be funny"
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 12:00 PM
Feb 2014

So, I guess if it's making your argument for you to point out that it's controversial humor because violence is wrong, then, okay. Point for you. But I don't see where anyone was claiming otherwise. My point was being wrong has never been a deterrent to humor being funny.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
20. Yes. To the people buying the soap sold on these shows, it's not wrong.
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 12:06 PM
Feb 2014

As you yourself are in fact arguing just two posts above this.

If it was wrong, why would context matter? Why would the inequality and history matter?

"Historical context" is an argument that is always, present company included, a phrase used to justify the unjustifable.

And when it comes to IPV, women are more frequently violent. I'm sure they think the historical context matters too.

kcr

(15,522 posts)
21. You are doing a heap of conflating
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 12:21 PM
Feb 2014

And you started it the second you trudged in here with your bogus domestic violence claims, picking it up and hurling it down on the table like a big heavy bag of bricks, and shouting Here it is! I want to hijack this discussion about context with this one study I just love to reference all the time!. No, I don't think violence against men isn't wrong. No one in this thread has, even though they understand the concept of counterbalance. Because it has nothing to do with supporting or advocating violence against men or claiming even one iota that it is okay.

Context and history matter in this particular discussion because the discussion is about whether or not there is a double standard in how violence is portrayed in comedy. Why would you leave that out of the discussion? That would make no sense.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
27. Sooo... men are the dominant group, therefore it's funny when women hit them?
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 12:15 PM
Feb 2014

You're working from a definition of "dominant" with which I'm unfamiliar.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
31. Of course.
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 06:25 PM
Feb 2014

Don't the men laugh and say things like "You're cute when you're mad?" Common in comedy to have some little woman punching on some big man and he can afford to laugh at that, can't he?

delta17

(283 posts)
22. The double standard is sexist in itself, though.
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 01:23 PM
Feb 2014

The idea is that it is OK for a woman to hit a man, because they are weak and harmless. Men are expected to shrug it off, and any man who overreacts to it is considered a p****.

I saw it a few times as a wrestler in High School. There were a few female wrestlers out there, and some were pretty good. Most guys were terrified of wrestling a girl because if they lost, they would never hear the end of it. Getting pinned by a guy was considered fine as long as you fought hard.

delta17

(283 posts)
35. Just to clarify.
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 07:56 PM
Feb 2014

I don't think that women are weak and harmless, just pointing out a common stereotype.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
37. oh, i agree. i had a brother who a girl hit him. it hurt. it pissed me off. i had an oldest son
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 08:00 PM
Feb 2014

where a girl would pinch his ear. it hurt. pissed me off. said something to her about that one.

i hadnt figured why the men were to giggle after the woman slapped them. (this was in programming when young, not so much older). but, it always seemed to be passed off as normal behavior. it always bothered me.

you pointed out why they would respond as they did. i hadnt thought about that

i knew it was tied to their macho, hadnt thought "weak" woman.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
25. Some people are painfully stupid or wilfully blind.
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 10:30 AM
Feb 2014

What exactly is it that men are depicted as being stupid ABOUT, in sitcoms and commercials? Domestic chores, usually. "Oh look at Bob failing to properly do the laundry or the ironing or the housework; clearly his wife should just do it because she's so much more clever about these woman things than any man could possibly be." The way male "stupidity" is depicted in sitcoms and in TV commercials? It reinforces traditionally stereotyped gender roles. This isn't any kind of "counterbalancing", at all.

Squinch

(52,859 posts)
26. ^^^^ It is meant to make women feel that the crap jobs that fall to them are more important
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 10:40 AM
Feb 2014

than they are, and that it is worthwhile for women to do them. It is "allowing" women an area of competence in those jobs that no one really wants to do.

Ads are changing. Right now, many, many ads are popping up that depict men doing housework, so we can compare the attitudes in the ads that say men can do housework with the ads that say men can't do housework.

Those ads that insist that "men can't do housework" depict housework as crucial to the well being of the family, and women need to be smart to do it right.

Those ads in which men are doing housework concentrate on the message that "Housework sucks. No one wants to do it. This product gets it done faster and easier."

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
34. "men are depicted as being stupid ABOUT... Domestic chores, usually" yes. and a lot of men
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 06:33 PM
Feb 2014

like propagating this myth that a man cannot wipe a counter cause it serves them well.

PlanetaryOrbit

(155 posts)
39. If you don't mind my asking, who are you referring to as stupid or blind?
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 09:43 PM
Feb 2014

Men are depicted as being stupid about many different things, not just chores or laundry.

raccoon

(31,466 posts)
29. IMO it's only in the movies and TV where a woman slaps a man in the face, and of course
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 12:53 PM
Feb 2014

he never retaliates in any way.

I expect in RL, if a woman slapped a man in the face, regardless of what the circumstances were, he'd hit her back. In the movies/TV, that wouldn't be funny.



 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
30. Not true.
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 01:35 PM
Feb 2014

Roughly half of relationships with violence are reciprocal. In nonreciprocally violent relationships (one partner is violent toward the other) 70% of the time, it's the woman who is violent to the man who doesn't retaliate.

70% times 50% is 35%. So 35% of all domestic violence is women perpetrating violence on nonretaliatory men.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
32. it should not be acceptable. back in my day, a slap was suppose to be the woman thing to do and men
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 06:28 PM
Feb 2014

were suppose to be ok with it. even chuckle.

thought it horrible way back then

think it is horrible now

see how easy that is.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
40. That may be true.
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 02:55 AM
Feb 2014

And I think that many of these were probably quite well-intentioned on the whole, to give women, minorities, etc. the sense of empowerment that they so rightly deserved. But I do think some of these may possibly have backfired, such as the women slapping men being less of a problem than vice versa, etc.(which the MRA dickbags are whining about constantly these days, as part of this make-believe "misandrist" conspiracy).

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