What do you think of this comment about current state of the country?

[dixiegrrrrl]

From Chris Hedges' book Empire of Illusion:

"At no period in American history has our democracy been in such peril nor the possibility of
totalitarianism as real.
Our way of life is over, our profligate consumption is finished.
Our children will never have the standard of living as we had.
This is the bleak future, this is reality, it cannot be undone and there is no way to stop it.
( by current spending/economic plans, he means)
Nor will it be solved by clinging to the illusions of the past".

edited to add link to his discussion of the book, here:

I find that I have to listen to Hedges 2-3 times to really take in all his viewpoints.
For me, this is a pleasure.

[villager]

1. I wish our "leaders" here one-tenth as cogent

n/t

[TheMastersNemesis]

2. Essentially Correct.

Chris Hedges is essentially correct. I have been intensively following the slide downhill since Reagan. Yet the voters have consistently kept the GOP in power since the Democrats lost Congress. What Chris says is particularly true if we continue to pursue present free trade policies and insource millions of foreign nationals to replace American workers. The fact that we now have policies in place that essentially are biased against working Americans.

I worked at DOL for and the GOP, conservatives, big business and even the churches have been instrumental in undermining and destroying the structure of our labor and employment system that made this a prosperous country. It is now a country that is only for the 1%.

[Romulox]

3. Accurate. nt

[el_bryanto]

4. There is no way to stop it?

I guess you put in a footnote explaining that we could stop it by adopting an alternative plan? What plan does he suggest?

Bryant

[dixiegrrrrl]

5. He is saying that "traditional" means

and current systems cannot stop it.
He says the best hope is movements like Occupy, that people IN the system cannot think out of the box.

[abelenkpe]

6. Then we need to replace the people in the system

You can't change it from the outside.

[Zalatix]

10. A total collapse and a new dark ages will stop it.

And that option is much better than the alternative, which is a global plutonomy.

[jtuck004]

11. It is a real possibility that a Rick Santorum-like character would rise as the leader out of

such a situation. And given what we know about history it is a better than even possibility, I think.

Until democratically-minded people take it in hand, and realize the democracy we were handed was and is a contact sport, that it requires training and a sense of history, that couch potatoes are its worst enemies, I think there is little to no evidence that a crash would result in anything better than we have now.

What I fear is that the inner steel, the sacrifice for the future needed for democracy has been bred out of soft, ignorant, and lazy Americans who may never see it again. At least not for a few generations, maybe more.

[truedelphi]

12. In republican circles it is already being stated that "Sanatorium" is

Is a good choice for Mittens in terms of a VP. (Though they don't use my new pet name for the man, obviously.)

I see nothing stopping this man. He has obviously been groomed to be President. The fact that Ron Paul has scored much higher overall and then was shunned by the media to allow someone like S. to take his place speaks volumes about what the Powers that Be are undertaking.

And yes, Obama is popular, but as Stalin once said: "It's not who votes - it's who counts the votes." (paraphrasing)

Right now the votes are counted on the hackable election machinery.

[jtuck004]

23. There's not one of 'em who understand economics well enough to

know that their philosophies will throw us into a depression.

Despite all the good economic new it is still a fact that millions still face foreclosure, people are still being driven into poverty, and a terrible cross section of good jobs have been replaced with jobs that provide no future, take little training, and force people to fight for meager wages.

Democrats have been pretty adept at kicking the can down the road, shuffling money and increasing debt, (it would take a real jobs program to outgrow our deficits, not just the excuses we are getting, not to mention addressing health care costs which are going to blow all this up in a few years anyway) making a bet that they can keep the worst of it from blowing up while they are in power, and perhaps things will improve in a decade or two.

But the Rethugs seem to not be troubled about that, and are just chomping at the bit to kill government spending and cut rich people's taxes. That is mostly what this economy is surviving on still (it sure aint the consumer, who made up most of it for decades), so they might bring the destruction they seem to so desire.

If we lose elections and what little civil society we have left, if things really break down, there are enough people that would follow some fool in a robe that it could make life extremely difficult. It beats the hell out of doing the hard work with your neighbors by your side. Few people, it seems, who have been slaves and shareholders their entire lives can to break out and demand that they do the hard work of freedom, if my reading of history tells me much. And they get the unpleasant task of fighting not only their oppressors but those who should be on their side.

Kinda like DU, at times

[truedelphi]

32. We are in a depression.

At least an entire segment of the population is in a depression. If people own stocks and have paid off their home, they might not realize it. But for anyone who doesn't have dividend income or a corporate job, own their own home, and all the other things that come with that lifestyle (Health insurance for instance) things are very tough.

Forty nine cents of every dollar of profit being made is being made by the Big Banks, and Big Financial people. Who are mostly sitting on the money.

People attempting to get a job find that there are at least three to eight applicants for every job posted. The young people in my area are still entering the military, as employers here will take only college grads or those who have gone the military route. (And most young people where I live don't have the income to deal with what it costs to go to college.)

[JDPriestly]

36. The biggest Ponzi scheme of our time has not yet unravelled.

That is the 401(K) idiocy.

In just a few years, the first of the baby-boomers will hit 70, begin to take mandatory pay-outs from their 401(K)s and start paying taxes on the income at the low rates they will pay in retirement. When the 401(K) withdrawals of the baby-boomers get into full gear, we will have extreme volatility in the stock market and other exchanges. At the same time, Medicare expenses, the legitimate ones, will soar.

Over-population is here now, and its repercussions will be devastating. Republican "values" or lack of values depending on how you look at it will be tested.

Because the entire 401(K) system is not what it was cracked up to be. Everyone talks about problems with Social Security. Just wait until they realize what the"problems" with the 401(K) system will be.

[dixiegrrrrl]

37. I personally think that the money will be gone by that time.

I think it is gone now, for the most part, and only exists in a ledger....zeros and 1s, actually.
MF Global lifted the veil on that game.

[JDPriestly]

30. jtuck004, have you joined your local Democratic Club?

[jtuck004]

34. No, tried a few years ago but didn't much care for the crowd.

Now I do more things like volunteering to do taxes, working with families in animal welfare. When I find a candidate I like I have worked the phones for them, stood with them on corners with signs, and I ALWAYS vote. I try to engage people outside of that process to challenge what they hear from the media, help when I can. But I have trouble taking the thoughtless and dogmatic "we're right and they're wrong" positions that seem to be required for membership in most clubs. I ask questions, and it just makes people uncomfortable.

Well, unless we are talking about Santorum. He's always wrong.

[jwirr]

7. Unfortunately I agree with him. And it is not just how we are approaching the economics that is

a hurdle in front of recovery. There are other huge problems that will make those statements true. Energy depletion (here I agree with Kunstler's The Long Emergency), food shortages due to climate change and droughts, over population (more people than jobs), globalization (which makes people dependent on non-local resources) and the huge divide in wealth and the unwillingness of the rich to help make the situation better. And that does not even begin to touch the effects of militarism.

[GliderGuider]

9. Bang on! n/t

[GliderGuider]

8. He's absolutely on the money except for one thing.

In point number 1 he's a bit behind the curve.

Just like with global warming, the tipping point has already been passed, but it's hard to see. Just as growth is now over in America (and the world, if I might be so bold), so is democracy. We just don't recognize the totalitarian state because it has been created without removing the facade of democracy. Clever they are, these new masters...

[truedelphi]

16. Can you explain what you are seeing as his point one?

I am not being snarky, but for me, his first point, by his use of the "boxing world" as an allegory for the USA, and his tale of how when his father watched boxing, the values that were being exemplified leaned toward the idealism of having a moral compass, and having ideals, while now all that has been shuttered and put "behind us" while we the American public move forward and embrace the cult of celebrity. And in doing that, millions of people value illiteracy and physical might over any type of wisdom.

I take it you aren't referring to our loss of ideals as his point one.

Again, what are you seeing as being Hedges' point one? (And again, I am trying to discern what you mean to see where I can comment on your comment.)

[GliderGuider]

20. Sorry, I meant the first point listed in the OP

At no period in American history has our democracy been in such peril nor the possibility of
totalitarianism as real.

Sorry to confuse the issue.

[truedelphi]

31. Okay, gotcha ya. I reacted the same way.

I too don't see the nation as facing the possibility of totalitarianism, but of actually being there.

Have you been able to view the movie "Idiocracy" yet?

Very funny, but all too true.

[GliderGuider]

39. Yes, I saw Idiocracy a few years ago.

It's what caused the current crop of Republican presidential candidates...

[mother earth]

17. Ah, but you underestimate, I think the majority do recognize it's a facade. Revolution is in

the air, not just with Occupy, but globally.

[GliderGuider]

24. Yes, I think we are on the brink of an abrupt change in the world

I was just talking about the lack of recognition by the average American that their country has become a camouflaged totalitarian state.

Globally, I quite agree. The relentless pressure on human and natural systems created by the debt-fueled, consumption-driven, wealth-consolidating transnational corporatist hegemony is taking its toll, and people everywhere are starting to kick over the traces.

Occupy, Via Campesina, the Zapatistas - these are the groundswell movements of the world-wide grassroots rebellion that is already under way.

[sabrina 1]

13. I think he's right. The evidence is everywhere. However, I do think it can be changed, although

it will take time and a real commitment from the people. That began with Ocuppy around the world. Iceland eg, provided a model, though not perfect, for how countries should have reacted to the Global Meltdown. Ireland is beginning to show signs of taking back their sovereignty also from the Globalists. It may happen country by country.

Imo, the Globalists who got us here are weakened by their own greed and have now created millions of victims who are becoming more and more aware of the system they set up. We could not see any changes until the problems were identified.

They have successfully infiltrated the democratic processes to the point where they will not be held accountable for whatever they do, for now. But history shows that these situations have occurred before and when they go too far, things begin to change.

[truedelphi]

18. Yes, the Occupy Movement contains the only glimmer of hope for the

people of the planet. Our institutions are all failing us - the Church is filled with pedophiles, we know now. The election system is corrupted beyond belief by the hackable machinery and the use of money as "free speech." And corporations are considered to have more rights as "persons" than persons do.

Even the sporting world was collapsing in the view of what happened at Penn State and Syracuse. And now the revelations regarding the fact that the NFL players were offering each other bounties to take on the star players of other teams and injure and even paralyze them!!

So what happens to Occupy? The NDAA happens and very importantly, the recent Bill that makes it a felony to protest near anyone who has Secret Service coverage. This means all future G8 and G20 events are off limits to protesters. And also the NATO conferences and meetings.

[sabrina 1]

21. Well, Occupy started a Global Movement. I can't say for sure, but I think this may be the first

time the PEOPLE went Global. The Corps, our Police Departments, Military and our Government and politicians have been Global for a long time. Most of us did not know this and were trying to deal with issues we thought were confined to our own countries. This turned out not to be true.

Yes, they are and will pass laws to try to silence any movement that threatens them. So the people will have to become very creative in order to overcome their efforts.

The beginning of OWS was very effective and as we saw, because of that the PTBs went all out to crush it, in much them same here in every city and in other countries. Almost as if it was coordinated on a Global Level. Starting with evicting people from the public square, then trumping up false charges against them, beating them, using Robo Cops, armies of them, who all look the same now, no matter which country they are in.

But the G8 and G20 conferences and NATO, as you say, are off limits to the people they claim to represent. Maybe it's time to set up a People's organization, a Corp, using their own rules to do so, and demand that that entity have access to the inside shenanigans perpetrated at these Global Events which appear to be merely Global conferences to protect the wealthy.

Or, the people could have their own versions of the G8 and G20 Conferences. Make them legitimate, within the laws eg, and appoint people to represent each country. Then make sure they get huge promotion around the world. Of course there will be no protection for them, unless they hire Mercenaries. But what could they do about a legitimate Global Organization meeting to discuss the people's business?

They could probably ask the UN for assistance to protect them. And who would they need protection from? Not the people, but from the rulers and their Corporate sponsors. That in itself would highlight how bad things are and how these organizations are not in any way working for the people.

[truedelphi]

22. Loving your ideas. Thanks for presenting them. n/t

[GliderGuider]

26. Take a look at Via Campesina

That farmers' movement consists of 150 organizations in over 70 countries, and has over 200 million members - one estimate I just heard last weekend was 400 million. It's the largest social movement in the world, and still gaining steam.

http://viacampesina.org/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=27&Itemid=45

[sabrina 1]

38. Interesting, I never heard of it before, thanks for the link. Maybe Occupy could join them

or at least support them.

[mother earth]

14. Absolutely he's correct. We can't stay in the old paradigm. We have to progress into a new era,

out with the old and in with the new. That's why centrism is dead wrong in this new era, progressive values must prevail if we are to survive. It's no longer about ME, ME, ME, I've got mine, to hell with you. That's why the GOP will
fail...they can't go beyond selfish profit motives. I doubt any of us would be surprised if it all comes crashing down.
I'm thinking it has to get that bad to believe we are even capable of doing what we need to do. We always choose easy over best, we are incredibly lazy, and incredibly content with middle of road that has done absolutely nothing to make us better.

(Edited to add, excellent topic, dixiegrrrrl! Thank you for posting it. )

[Loge23]

15. Sadly, quite accurate

I think one would have to be either completely ignorant or wildly optimistic to suggest otherwise.
The current election cycle provides some support. Here we have an essentially ideologically extinct political party (that would be the republicans to anyone playing at home) with a pretty good chance of regaining the Presidency and even taking complete control over the House and Senate. The reason is not based on their ideology, obviously - it's based on largely misinformed opinions about the current administration, racism, and fear. Large sections of the country actually favor a religious fundamentalist as President.
On the other hand, the current administration is weakly supported by their own voters - many of whom will exercise their vote with one hand holding their collective noses. We're not winning many arguments with that appraisal of our leadership, let's face it.
American capitalism has been corrupted to a unrecognizable form for most mature Americans. So many have basically given up, hopeful only for a pittance, if that, to retire on.
Many will not take a stand for anything anymore since inevitably special interests will circumvent any broader issue.
Physically, the country is a wreck. The people are broken down, disspirited, and pessimistic.
Basic freedom seems to be constantly under attack from our own government - much, much more than any outside threat.
Any significant improvement to our lives comes from bubbles - illusory, temporary, and with a wicked bill at the inevitable ending.

I have always advocated non-violence as the ultimate change agent, still do. But this situation, I fear, will not end well.

[woo me with science]

19. But

our President speaks sign language!

K&R

[hifiguy]

25. I see nothing with which to disagree.

Mr. Hedges seems to have hit the nail on the head. Morris Berman is also worth reading on these subjects.

[deutsey]

27. It makes me sad, especially for my children.

I'm not a defeatist, though, and I agree with Hedges that we need to discard the old ways of confronting the threats and develop new ways to fight back.

[LanternWaste]

28. I think we're re-living the end of Edwardian Britain between the wars.

I think we're re-living the end of Edwardian Britain between the wars in so many ways.

A change will happen, and will happen at the expense of so many things we hold as "Americana", but it can done via the governmental mechanism (as done in Britain at the time, albeit messily) rather than through violence or revolution.

Financially, politically (projections of power), culturally and personally, our sites, our hopes and our expectations will have be set much lower than they have been since the post-war booms.

I believe we will readjust.

[jwirr]

40. I think you are correct but only because we are not going to have a choice. There is no returning

to what we had.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. The handwriting on the wall is flashing in neon that our empire is collapsing.

Hopefully, it will die a relatively quiet death and be resurrected as just another 2nd rate, used-to-be-bigshot country, like the UK and Spain and all the rest that were perceived as Forever Land.

[Akoto]

33. I agree times are bad, but not that we are dooooomed. n/t

[Initech]

35. He's right -

Our system of government has been taken over by a group of elitist fundamentalist insane bastards for the lust and allure of the almighty dollar. We're driven by fear and fed bullshit from AM Hate Radio and the Fox Outrage Machine for so long that we may never get it all back.