General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsA little more info about 2 year old shooting mother at Walmart in Idaho.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/31/the-inside-story-of-how-an-idaho-toddler-shot-his-mom-at-wal-mart/?tid=hybrid_1.1_default_strip_1Veronica Rutledge and her husband loved everything about guns. They practiced at shooting ranges. They hunted. And both of them, relatives and friends say, had permits to carry concealed firearms. Veronica typically left her Blackfoot, Idaho, home with her gun nestled at her side. So on Christmas morning last week, her husband gave her a present he hoped would make her life more comfortable: a purse with a special pocket for a concealed weapon.
Autumn
(44,765 posts)breathe on that zipper and it will slide down. Anyone who has a purse like that and that sets it where a child can get it...
hlthe2b
(101,730 posts)thanks!
Autumn
(44,765 posts)Not about to carry a gun in that.
http://www.egunbags.com/montana-west-conceal-carry-handgun-purse/
hlthe2b
(101,730 posts)I just can't get that child out of my head. Damn....
NJCher
(35,434 posts)I don't care how much psychiatric help this child gets, my guess is that he will always blame himself.
I cannot fathom a lifetime of that.
And all because of guns.
Cher
hlthe2b
(101,730 posts)(as well as their gun-obsessed lifestyle) of all responsibility... sigh....
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Personally, I've never found a reason to require carrying weapons. I don't have any enemies, and there's not a damn thing that I possess that can't be replaced if someone decides they want to rob me for it.
hlthe2b
(101,730 posts)make sense of this tragedy by trying to do something to prevent it happening to others!
Damn, I feel sorry for that child. What a horrible load he will carry throughout his life.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I mean if she was a "responsible" gun owner...surely the safety would be on? Or maybe the two year old tuned it off.
This father in law is an idiot.
jmowreader
(50,453 posts)KREM TV is reporting she was carrying a 9mm Smith & Wesson M&P Shield pistol. It's available in two versions: one with a thumb safety, one without and five will get you ten she had one without a thumb safety. This gun has no safety switch - the safeties on it are designed to keep the gun from firing if you drop it.
Smith & Wesson ships these with a 6.5-lb trigger pull, but if she was big into target shooting she may have had a "match trigger" - three pounds pull weight - put on the gun.
sendero
(28,552 posts)....they were going to name the gun model. I was thinking perhaps a Glock, which basically has no safety. There is a "safety" in the middle of the trigger.
Of course, even with a safety it could have been accidentally engaged by the child. Nothing is 100% foolproof, but generally if I was going to carry a gun (I have a lot of them) I would not chamber a round unless I was preparing to fire.
As long as you don't chamber a round it would be almost impossible to have an accidental discharge. And the act of chambering is only going to slow you down a second or so.
Maybe someone else hearing this horrible story will think twice about how they choose to carry and increase their level of safety from accidental discharge.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)it's hard to even imagine.
neverforget
(9,434 posts)They are painting Veronica as irresponsible, and that is not the case, he said. I brought my son up around guns, and he has extensive experience shooting it. And Veronica had had hand gun classes; theyre both licensed to carry, and this wasnt just some purse she had thrown her gun into.
Well all that responsibility just killed her.
Takket
(21,425 posts)Grandad is a fucking idiot. The very fact a two year old can possibly obtain an effective killing instrument like these is basically the definition of irresponsible. Going to driving school doesn't make you a responsible car owner if you leave your keys in the ignition with the engine on and the kid in the drivers seat. That's what leaving a kid alone with a loaded gun nearby is equivalent to.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)he talks about her in the present tense as if nothing at all went wrong there.
you tell a tree by its fruit. Unless the tree falls over dead.
Then, all the gun safety classes in the world don't matter and DID NOT WORK.
I've had guns in the home most of my kids' lives. Last husband carried always, leo, and never, ever did we put those guns where a toddler would have access.
But then, we didn't love guns more than our own babies, either.
She may have been a nuclear scientist, but she had zero gun safety sense around small children.
So sad for those kids. Won't grieve for grandpa and dad, as they are more sad over GUNZZZZ.
tblue37
(64,982 posts)Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)I still won't shed a tear for his son....
Bad parenting becomes dangerous parenting. And anyone who thinks that boy won't remember - I don't think even a two-year-old can completely block out a traumatic memory like that.
tblue37
(64,982 posts)I tried to take a short nap about 3 hours ago, but I couldn't lie quietly enough to sleep. I was too agitated thinking about all those kids who must live their lives knowing they have shot and killed someone, often someone they love dearly. But even if it was a stranger or a mere acquaintance, a kid is not likely ever to get over something like that.
Remember that little girl, no more than 8 or 9, whose parents thought it would be a cool, fun thing to have her shoot an Uzi--but she lost control of the gun and ended up shooting the instructor int he head and killing him? Do you think she will ever get that memory out of her head? I wasn't even involved, but I can't get it out of my head!
This gun-loving family of the woman who died today will no doubt be disappointed, but I bet that little boy and those little nieces she had with her will now develop a serious phobia about guns and tremble in fear as they watch their relatives play with their beloved guns--because according to the news articles, guns and gun related activities are the family's main interest. But of course if they do develop a phobia, their family will probably try to overcome their fear of guns by pressing them to "just try it," promising them that with familiarity they will become more and more comfortable playing with guns.
I wonder--have any of you ever read any articles about former gun overs who, after losing someone to this sort of "accident" have actually decided that maybe having guns in the house is might not such a good idea?
In every article I have read after such a tragedy, the people involved always insist it was just an unforeseeable "accident," and none have ever shown the slightest inclination even to consider that maybe having guns all over the house is not such a great idea, especially with small kids or heavy drinkers in the same home.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)the one who shot the instructor. Wondering how she was coping.
The one that got me was the kid who shot himself while his doctor dad stood by and watched.
Just too brutal for words. It's like gun lovers have lost all their common sense, you know? They have such little regard for PEOPLE and so much regard for METAL that SHOOTS STUFF they don;t even have the ability to see their children don't have the arm strength to fire UZIs and semi-automatics. They love their guns so much, they can't see that they put their babies at huge risk by leaving weapons where toddlers can easily access them.
I imagine there are many people who won't have guns after an accident like that, but they aren't outspoken and aren't the sort to have gun fetishes.
The true gun nuts ONLY love guns. It's really all they have to hold them to this earth, being fear-based control freaks, so they can't imagine losing the precious.
MADem
(135,425 posts)move, I can't fathom. For someone so smart, she was dumb as a box of rocks on proper handling of a firearm.
Oh well--she's beyond worrying about that, and that is a shame that a child has lost his mother through her negligence--and that is what it was--and he will bear the burden for her mistake all his life. Unwittingly, without malice but through carelessness, she destroyed two lives for starters--her own and her child's.
And from there, the damage resonates outward.
I think her example should be used as a "What Not To Do" object lesson--early and often. Maybe she'll save some lives by example.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Regardless of how one feels about guns .... this entire tragedy could have (should have) been prevented. I do not feel (and would never claim) this woman deserved to die for her irresponsibility ... but who the eff would have guns near (within reach of) children much less babies and toddlers?
BeyondGeography
(39,284 posts)Give him something else to do while he's doing his own grandstanding.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,273 posts)She must have slept through: Don't Leave Your Gun Where A 2 Year Old Can Get It - 101.
SMC22307
(8,088 posts)or chalk it up to God's will? Make that dumbass, singular.
I feel sorry for that poor child. Going through life with the knowledge that you shot and killed your own mother. Very sad.
treestar
(82,383 posts)They won't be able to keep it a secret from the child.
I recently read a novel called The Secret Life of Bees - this happened to a fictional child in that story. She picked a gun up off the floor and it fired and killed her mother.
nruthie
(466 posts)Having lived in Blackfoot, Idaho, and knowing the prevailing mindset in that area, I would imagine it's being chalked up as God's will. Hence, no-one is responsible.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...the toddler's mother is dead.
If he were my son, he'd never know beans about what happened. His mother died in a car wreck or something less tragic. Telling the boy the truth is just crazy and disgusting.
Chemisse
(30,793 posts)They can tell him it was a gun accident and leave it at that.
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)as a way of letting both the mother and the gun off the hook.
Poor baby.
MADem
(135,425 posts)at the truth.
That kid just needs to google his mama's name, and he'll know what he did. And he'll know all about the HUGE STINK that resulted as a consequence. And he will google mama's name one day. He does need to be prepared, but he needs to be told that mama left her gun in the wrong damn place, with the safety off or not present, and mama inadvertently caused her own demise.
The only way this can be "hidden" from the child is if they give him up for adoption in a closed adoption where he can NEVER know who his parents were--and that causes problems in and of itself.
I think he'll probably need a ton of psychological counselling over the years. But I'm guessing he'll never fully integrate the experience--it will always be the thing that he and others will point to if/when he fucks up, doesn't measure up, or makes a poor choice.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)But of course, that would require a decent amount of money.
Stories like this one cause me to reflect on my own life and think "I have a lot to be thankful for.."
MADem
(135,425 posts)And the way Grampa is yakking with his daughter not yet cold, I kinda think he wouldn't shut up about it.
And of course, there are always helpful "friends" or distant relations who will--either because they're jerks or had a few too many--decide to "share" information that is probably best left in the past. Everyone has a relative like this, some unlucky people have several.
I'm a lucky duck, too, in a lot of ways. I can't imagine having to live with the knowledge that I took a parent's life, even if unintentionally.
It's times like that ya might be inclined to root for "reincarnation," in order to get a do-over of sorts.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...(out of anger) "yeah, well at least, I didn't kill my mother" eeeeuuuwwww
MADem
(135,425 posts)drama to have to deal with.
There are no good answers--just lots of psychological intervention, early and often. Counseling should probably be part of this kid's life from early on, so it's not an "odd" thing to turn to if he gets in rough territory.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,273 posts)So yeah, it will happen. If they move away that might stop the neighborhood kids whose parents will blab. But it will come out.
I'll never for get the ambulance and police cars and Dr. Appleyard standing on the front porch. It was a school day so we were on our way out the door. I was in kindergarten. The neighbor's dad was a school Principal at the local parochial school (not my public school). He woke up Monday morning and went down to the basement and shot himself in the head.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)I remember kids teasing my neighbor about his dad killing himself.
Damn, your post has moved me. I try to forget how cruel and unforgiving the world can be but strangely enough, I need someone to kick me in the ass and remind me "To Feel"
They will have to be honest with him about it, so he can deal with it.
LisaL
(44,962 posts)How is he going to not know, when it's all over the news?
hunter
(38,264 posts)Every ignorant gun humper in that family ought to be begging for the kid's forgiveness up to the very last days of their miserable lives. They killed mom, mom killed mom, toddlers do what toddlers do.
I'll bet mom couldn't have imagined letting her kid run wild in a room full of radioactive materials, but she thought it was okay to have a loaded gun in her purse???
What sort of society normalizes carrying guns like that? A fucked up society, that's for sure.
The worst accidents that ever happened with my own kids involved "dangerous" items like lipstick and felt-tip markers. The consequences were comedy, not tragedy.
My own worst toddler misadventures often involved matches. I was a little pyromaniac and smokers always had matches. My mom never smoked, and my dad quit before I started school. By some good fortune I never killed or maimed anyone with fire, but I did cause some minor property damage.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)has a variety of guns that they keep in their homes and in their cars, hopefully locked in the trunk or box for the purpose on their trucks. My DH and I had a couple of rifles we kept under lock and key for when we went into the woods, but I never knew anyone who took their guns shopping. The guns were left locked in the car because mostly we were pretty sure we weren't going to run into a bear or other dangerous animal in Wal-Mart.
Why would anyone think they needed a conceal carry when they are going grocery shopping with a bunch of kids is beyond me? Of course I lived there twenty years ago before the NRA propaganda got the gun owning population into believing they were supposed to be afraid, very afraid of...your two year old apparently.
PADemD
(4,482 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)with the gun culture. The south is largely Mormon although not as scenic. This is something I'm certain that the locals are shaking their heads over and wondering why you would take a gun into town let alone shopping.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)CK_John
(10,005 posts)Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)other than the innocent child. She was killed by her own gun fetish, and even a nuclear scientist can be a total idiot.
treestar
(82,383 posts)They get it in their heads they are smarter than others - somewhat encouraged by society, which is now valuing the scientific over all else.
NBachers
(17,007 posts)riverwalker
(8,694 posts)And to see someone with a gun isnt bizarre. [Veronica] wasnt carrying a gun because she felt unsafe. She was carrying a gun because she was raised around guns. This was just a horrible accident.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Gun humpers are nuts.
Skittles
(152,967 posts)idiots
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Just... fuck.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Her death by misadventure was likely imo
Ilsa
(61,675 posts)Draw a gun on the toddler. Or, maybe seeing the blood and dead body caused them to think twice about the only dangerous person in the store was a dead lady with a CC permit.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)to live there.
Logical
(22,457 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)MindPilot
(12,693 posts)I can't help but speculate what would have been the outcome had the bullet hit someone else. I fantasize about a lawsuit that would break Wal*Mart.
But it is bizarre to me that--in the context of our "security state"--someone can wander in to a public space with a loaded firearm concealed in their belongings.
I recently attended an NFL game, my first in at least a couple decades. I was astonished at the level of security, tighter than the airport. I had to take the lens caps off my binoculars so the security guy could make sure--I'm not making this up--"there wasn't a gun built into them". So rest assured Americans, you are being well-protected from the shit least likely to harm you.
Also interesting to note that she was an engineer. I work with many engineers, and many do seem to have that siege/bunker mentality which require them to be armed at all times. One of my co-workers likes firearms so much their license plate is MMMGUNZ.
NJCher
(35,434 posts)That is a totally bizarre story, but I share your amazement of a country that will let anyone--dimwit or nuclear scientist--run around with a gun. Like the posters upthread have observed, what if it had been another shopper, completely unconnected to this situation? Or the children of that shopper? It's bad enough as it is.
Whenever confronted with conundrums like the one unearthed by your observation, I try to see if it's the result of the kinds of twisted results that are often brought about by the deification of capitalism. I don't think I'll have to think to hard to connect this one.
Cher
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Guns are not accessories, they are not shiny toys to play with - they are instruments of death and must be recognized and treated as such or things like this happen.
Veronica's actions as described in the article tell me that she didn't understand that, neither does her family. There's no justification for carrying a loaded gun in her purse while she took little children shopping. She was irresponsible, plain and simple.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)the most important lesson all parents need to learn...
Never, never, NEVER underestimate the ability of a kid to get into places and things he's not supposed to.
I have a stepdaughter with a permit to conceal carry a small handgun in her purse. AND a curious 4 year old. I shudder to think of what could happen there
kiva
(4,373 posts)It wasn't her kid or another customer or worker, but the person stupid enough to to set up the situation.
That said, no one should have died - in a better world she'd be celebrating New Year's Day with her family and her father-in-law would be complaining about her stuffing instead of defending her poor judgement.
moondust
(19,917 posts)Oops.
malaise
(267,838 posts)that simple. Stupid stupid stupid people.
Rex
(65,616 posts)The article tries hard not to blame the GUN, but obviously she would be alive today if it had never existed. So goes for countless millions. Of course none of the adult will learn anything from this.
"On Tuesday morning, that was exactly what Veronica Rutledges son did with the most tragic of outcomes. Veronica, 29, arrived at a nearby Wal-Mart in Hayden with her three nieces and son, her gun zippered closed inside her new purse, her father-in-law said. Then, in the back of the store, near the electronics section, the purse was left unattended for a moment."
An inquisitive 2-year-old boy reached into the purse, unzipped the compartment, found the gun and shot his mother in the head, Rutledge said. Its a terrible, terrible incident.
First off I find that to be impossible, but strange shit happens when death machines are sitting around waiting. Also, these prepper types NEVER take blame for themselves.
"Rutledge isnt just sad hes angry. Not at his grandson. Nor at his dead daughter-in-law, who didnt have a malicious fiber in her body, he said. Hes angry at the observers already using the accident as an excuse to grandstand on gun rights."
They are painting Veronica as irresponsible, and that is not the case, he said.
I brought my son up around guns, and he has extensive experience shooting it. And Veronica had had hand gun classes; theyre both licensed to carry, and this wasnt just some purse she had thrown her gun into.
Wait...she is responsible, but the purse (oh yeah let us not forget the biased reporter here left out the unattended baby) was left 'unattended' with a loaded killing machine inside that was east to get to.
If she had it holstered somewhere (probably like she did a thousands times over) on her body...she would be alive today. IF she would not have felt so insecure about society, she would have no need for a gun in Wal-Mart and would be alive today.