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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGerman Patience With Greece on the Euro Wears Thin
BERLIN Just weeks ago, the idea that Greece would leave the euro zone was almost unthinkable. Now, with Greeces newly empowered political parties refusing to abide by the terms of the countrys international loan agreement and Europes leaders talking tough, that outcome is looking increasingly likely.
Germanys devotion to the euro and the European Union runs extremely deep and cuts across the political spectrum. But the frustration with Greece here is undeniable. There is a growing conviction that it is up to Greece to follow through on its commitments, that Europe is done negotiating.
Germans are now predominantly of the opinion that they would be better off if Greece left the euro zone, said Carsten Hefeker, a professor of economics and an expert on the euro at the University of Siegen. If the country really is continuing on the path they are taking now, it would be hard to justify keeping them in. How do you deal with a country that says we dont want to keep any of the commitments we have made?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/world/europe/german-patience-with-greece-on-the-euro-wears-thin.html
The EU and Eurozone are structured all wrong, since they were developed before the fall of the Iron Curtain. Germany and other Central European countries would be much better off in association with the countries of Eastern Europe which have educated, ambitious workforces and some natural resources, which are lacking in countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy.
marmar
(76,985 posts)That's an awful lot of assuming and stereotyping.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)MADRID Spaniards came bottom of the class in an 11-nation science test and nearly half of them could not name a single important scientist in history, a survey showed Tuesday.
The survey of 1,500 people in each of 11 nations -- the United States and 10 European nations -- subjected participants to a science test as well as checking their familiarity with science in general.
...
The full ranking was: Denmark 15.6 out of 20; Netherlands 15.3; Germany 14.8; Czech Republic 14.6; United States 14.3; Austria 14.2; Britain 14.1; France 13.8; Poland 12.4; Italy 12.0; and Spain 11.2.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hHEVLAO8mF_6mv_6JdeNCiW4SKvQ?docId=CNG.f06b3f115da0bd54c843b2d1d70de8f8.691
katsy
(4,246 posts)From your link:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hHEVLAO8mF_6mv_6JdeNCiW4SKvQ?docId=CNG.f06b3f115da0bd54c843b2d1d70de8f8.691
"Only 13 percent of Spaniards aged 18-24 were identified as having a low level of scientific knowledge compared to 57 percent of adults aged over 65, the report said."
This study has all the depth of toilet paper IMO.
When society invests in their children's education, the children rise to the challenge.
I don't believe that the PIGS nations have an uneducated, worthless pool of workers any more than I believe the U.S. needs foreign workers to fill highly skilled jobs.
Working people need to stand with their foreign counterparts against BS propoganda. Have you ever traveled to foreign countries? The one gem I carried back with me after extensive travel from Europe to Asia to the Middle East... we are all the same. Our loves, hurts, dreams. We all work so hard for our little inch of soil. When our societies invest in us, we shine. If not, there are alternate lifestyles people create in order to get by. From pirates to drug runners to doctors and kings, people strive to better their lot.
There is no stupid race, people, country. There is only an equal mix of everything across the board, an then you also come to see that sometimes, there are the abandoned.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Many are as good or better than their US counterparts.
But various countries differ in whether they educate students in science and whether they provide employment opportunities later.
Spain? At least historically science was not emphasized, perhaps because of a cultural bias against it due to religion?
And research budgets are being cut now.
katsy
(4,246 posts)We have both traveled and find that workers in any country have everything in common. When their government invests in them, they shine. It's all about investment in the public good. Austerity is enslavement of masses plain and simple. And to justify this travesty, we find media constructs painting us pictures of the stupid people bringing this upon themselves. This is fantasy.
Take the greedy, corrupt pfhuckers who drain the public coffers and deny their society an educated, happy workforce the education to succeed, put them in shackles and throw away the keys and then let's watch people shine.
My children are no better educated here in the U.S. than their cousins are in Sparta today. It's just that their cousins have to spend more money to stay on top of things right now because of widespread corruption that drains public funding in Greece. When I was growing up, my cousins in Greece were better educated than myself. Hands down! While I was squirrel-watching and dreaming of what I should become when I grow up... my cousin Litsa in Greece was studying for entrance exams in LAW. I was prancing at the beaches and my cousins were planning their lives and hitting the books.
The study you posted, IMO is very flawed and generalized. The youth in Spain are up to the challenge in scientific knowledge. This has everything to do political/financial corruption that is ruining the lives and economies cross-continents. These thieves and crooks can try and place the blame on their "stupid populace" but that won't fly with me.
Response to marmar (Reply #1)
BOG PERSON This message was self-deleted by its author.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Then they would have control over their own currency. Krugman has been making this point for a long while.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)This divorce needs to happen sooner than later so the Greeks can forge their own way forward.
hack89
(39,171 posts)in any case there will be austerity.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)I'm sure worldwide demand for the currency and bonds of a nation that has just said that they have no intention of honoring debts will be simply enormous....which incidentally will also be the size of the wheelbarrow needed for enough drachmae to buy a loaf of bread within a year or so of them issuing an externally worthless currency with risible tax collection and 25% public employment on top of high unemployment.
......(snip)......
But the reality is that the economic expansion has been led by domestic consumption and investment. And it happened because the Argentine government changed its most important macroeconomic choices: on fiscal, monetary, and exchange rate policies. That is what took Argentina out of its 1998-2002 depression and turned it into the fastest-growing economy in the Americas.
Now for the world-wide significance of how Argentina's recovery actually happened: as I and many other economists have written, the policies currently being imposed on the eurozone economies especially the weaker ones are similar to what Argentina went through during the depression that led to its default and devaluation. These policies were pro-cyclical, meaning that they amplified the impact of the downturn. Together with a fixed, overvalued exchange rate, they made the economy worse. By defaulting on its debt and devaluing its currency, Argentina was freed to change its most important macroeconomic policies.
If the European authorities (the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the IMF) continue to block the eurozone's economic recovery with senseless austerity measures, individual countries will want to consider more rational alternatives in order to restore full employment. The people of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and other countries are told every day that they must swallow this bitter medicine, and that there is no alternative to the prolonged suffering and high unemployment that they are going through. But the Argentine experience in reality rather than in mythical portrayals indicates that this is not true. There are definitely better alternatives and they have nothing to do with soybeans or commodity export booms. .............(more)
The complete piece is at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/may/04/argentina-magic-soybean-export-boom
hack89
(39,171 posts)1. Foreign investors have for the most part already written off their loans to Greece. Writing down Greece's debt was part of the bailout. It is the other part of the bailout that Greece needs - regular cash payments from the EU in exchange for reform. They don't have the cash reserves to run the government.
2. Argentina was lucky in that their financial crisis took place at the same time as a huge run up in the price of agriculture commodities - especially soy beans. They had a massive infusion of money due to increased exports to keep the government afloat. Greece, like the rest of Europe, is experiencing an economic downturn so they cannot expect a financial windfall.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)A governmental budget that is 40% of GDP not 17%
Unemployment that is more than twice as high
A lot less natural resources
Ditching a currency would put them in 1992 Argentina not 2012
And let's be honest Argentina relies on intergovernmental loans to cover deficits to an extent that would make Al Gore's lockbox melt. They have not gone to the int'l market for 10 yrs for obvious reasonds, raising every peso by dumping IOUs into the state pension kitty. What happens to the peso, and the pensioners, when those IOUs come due?
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)It would be easy to make the argument that the Germans are being pushy, demanding bastards. But if they're such bastards why do the Greeks want German currency so bad?
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)It was like a teenager whose dad has cosigned for his credit card.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)Is she trying to wreak as much havok as possible before leaving? Why don't they just split back up and go it alone. Sounds like Germany is itching to go that route again. And Greece is so far gone they probably would be better off on their own.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Greece had elections.
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)Thank you. It was confusing.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)But it doesn't affect her job...although you could argue it affects her ability to lead and her influence.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Aka - Capitalism
maxrandb
(15,192 posts)People will be willing to accept some spending cuts and help shoulder the load, but are sick of that load being a bunch of uber-rich asshats that have been asked to sacrifice nothing.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)are the benefits to joining EU?