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FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
Wed May 9, 2012, 11:49 AM May 2012

German Patience With Greece on the Euro Wears Thin

BERLIN — Just weeks ago, the idea that Greece would leave the euro zone was almost unthinkable. Now, with Greece’s newly empowered political parties refusing to abide by the terms of the country’s international loan agreement and Europe’s leaders talking tough, that outcome is looking increasingly likely.

Germany’s devotion to the euro and the European Union runs extremely deep and cuts across the political spectrum. But the frustration with Greece here is undeniable. There is a growing conviction that it is up to Greece to follow through on its commitments, that Europe is done negotiating.

“Germans are now predominantly of the opinion that they would be better off if Greece left the euro zone,” said Carsten Hefeker, a professor of economics and an expert on the euro at the University of Siegen. “If the country really is continuing on the path they are taking now, it would be hard to justify keeping them in. How do you deal with a country that says we don’t want to keep any of the commitments we have made?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/world/europe/german-patience-with-greece-on-the-euro-wears-thin.html

The EU and Eurozone are structured all wrong, since they were developed before the fall of the Iron Curtain. Germany and other Central European countries would be much better off in association with the countries of Eastern Europe which have educated, ambitious workforces and some natural resources, which are lacking in countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy.

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German Patience With Greece on the Euro Wears Thin (Original Post) FarCenter May 2012 OP
"have educated, ambitious workforces..........hich are lacking in countries like Greece, Spain.." marmar May 2012 #1
Spain the dunces in international science test FarCenter May 2012 #7
To call a people "dunces" is harsh. katsy May 2012 #20
I've worked extensively with foreign engineers in Europe and Asia FarCenter May 2012 #22
My husband is also an engineer. katsy May 2012 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author BOG PERSON May 2012 #16
Greece would surely be bette off without the Euro. hifiguy May 2012 #2
I take it the final paragraph of your OP is your commentary on the Times piece? - n/t coalition_unwilling May 2012 #3
The paragraph after the URL to the Times piece is my commentary. FarCenter May 2012 #5
I'm guessing the Greeks under the German austerity plan heartily agree riderinthestorm May 2012 #4
Greek self imposed austerity would make more sense hack89 May 2012 #19
Yes this will work really well for the Greeks dmallind May 2012 #6
........ marmar May 2012 #10
There are several fundamental differences between Greece and Argentina. hack89 May 2012 #18
Just a few differences though dmallind May 2012 #21
yeah.. those lazy bums! fascisthunter May 2012 #8
I'm willing to bet that the Greeks don't give a shit. eom Fawke Em May 2012 #9
Greece should go it alone. Nuclear Unicorn May 2012 #11
The Euro gave Greece access to cheap credit FarCenter May 2012 #12
Kids gotta grow-up sometime, I suppose n/t Nuclear Unicorn May 2012 #13
Didn't their respective countries just vote out Sarkozy AND Merkel? YellowRubberDuckie May 2012 #14
Sarkozy was vote out; There was no election in Germany, so Merkel was not running. FarCenter May 2012 #15
OK. So the story I read was wrong. YellowRubberDuckie May 2012 #17
Germany did have elections...Merkel's party did poorly... joeybee12 May 2012 #24
Sounds like Greece's patience with Germany is what is thin...nt joeybee12 May 2012 #23
The people have lost patience with the robber barons and bosses. Tierra_y_Libertad May 2012 #25
You're absolutely right maxrandb May 2012 #27
I remember when England refused to join EU for such a long time. Where they right? What exactly jwirr May 2012 #28

marmar

(76,985 posts)
1. "have educated, ambitious workforces..........hich are lacking in countries like Greece, Spain.."
Wed May 9, 2012, 11:51 AM
May 2012

That's an awful lot of assuming and stereotyping.


 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
7. Spain the dunces in international science test
Wed May 9, 2012, 12:03 PM
May 2012

MADRID — Spaniards came bottom of the class in an 11-nation science test and nearly half of them could not name a single important scientist in history, a survey showed Tuesday.

The survey of 1,500 people in each of 11 nations -- the United States and 10 European nations -- subjected participants to a science test as well as checking their familiarity with science in general.

...

The full ranking was: Denmark 15.6 out of 20; Netherlands 15.3; Germany 14.8; Czech Republic 14.6; United States 14.3; Austria 14.2; Britain 14.1; France 13.8; Poland 12.4; Italy 12.0; and Spain 11.2.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hHEVLAO8mF_6mv_6JdeNCiW4SKvQ?docId=CNG.f06b3f115da0bd54c843b2d1d70de8f8.691

katsy

(4,246 posts)
20. To call a people "dunces" is harsh.
Wed May 9, 2012, 01:47 PM
May 2012

From your link:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hHEVLAO8mF_6mv_6JdeNCiW4SKvQ?docId=CNG.f06b3f115da0bd54c843b2d1d70de8f8.691

"Only 13 percent of Spaniards aged 18-24 were identified as having a low level of scientific knowledge compared to 57 percent of adults aged over 65, the report said."



This study has all the depth of toilet paper IMO.

When society invests in their children's education, the children rise to the challenge.

I don't believe that the PIGS nations have an uneducated, worthless pool of workers any more than I believe the U.S. needs foreign workers to fill highly skilled jobs.

Working people need to stand with their foreign counterparts against BS propoganda. Have you ever traveled to foreign countries? The one gem I carried back with me after extensive travel from Europe to Asia to the Middle East... we are all the same. Our loves, hurts, dreams. We all work so hard for our little inch of soil. When our societies invest in us, we shine. If not, there are alternate lifestyles people create in order to get by. From pirates to drug runners to doctors and kings, people strive to better their lot.

There is no stupid race, people, country. There is only an equal mix of everything across the board, an then you also come to see that sometimes, there are the abandoned.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
22. I've worked extensively with foreign engineers in Europe and Asia
Wed May 9, 2012, 02:06 PM
May 2012

Many are as good or better than their US counterparts.

But various countries differ in whether they educate students in science and whether they provide employment opportunities later.

Spain? At least historically science was not emphasized, perhaps because of a cultural bias against it due to religion?

And research budgets are being cut now.

katsy

(4,246 posts)
26. My husband is also an engineer.
Wed May 9, 2012, 02:32 PM
May 2012

We have both traveled and find that workers in any country have everything in common. When their government invests in them, they shine. It's all about investment in the public good. Austerity is enslavement of masses plain and simple. And to justify this travesty, we find media constructs painting us pictures of the stupid people bringing this upon themselves. This is fantasy.

Take the greedy, corrupt pfhuckers who drain the public coffers and deny their society an educated, happy workforce the education to succeed, put them in shackles and throw away the keys and then let's watch people shine.

My children are no better educated here in the U.S. than their cousins are in Sparta today. It's just that their cousins have to spend more money to stay on top of things right now because of widespread corruption that drains public funding in Greece. When I was growing up, my cousins in Greece were better educated than myself. Hands down! While I was squirrel-watching and dreaming of what I should become when I grow up... my cousin Litsa in Greece was studying for entrance exams in LAW. I was prancing at the beaches and my cousins were planning their lives and hitting the books.

The study you posted, IMO is very flawed and generalized. The youth in Spain are up to the challenge in scientific knowledge. This has everything to do political/financial corruption that is ruining the lives and economies cross-continents. These thieves and crooks can try and place the blame on their "stupid populace" but that won't fly with me.



Response to marmar (Reply #1)

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
2. Greece would surely be bette off without the Euro.
Wed May 9, 2012, 11:53 AM
May 2012

Then they would have control over their own currency. Krugman has been making this point for a long while.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
4. I'm guessing the Greeks under the German austerity plan heartily agree
Wed May 9, 2012, 11:56 AM
May 2012

This divorce needs to happen sooner than later so the Greeks can forge their own way forward.

dmallind

(10,437 posts)
6. Yes this will work really well for the Greeks
Wed May 9, 2012, 12:02 PM
May 2012

I'm sure worldwide demand for the currency and bonds of a nation that has just said that they have no intention of honoring debts will be simply enormous....which incidentally will also be the size of the wheelbarrow needed for enough drachmae to buy a loaf of bread within a year or so of them issuing an externally worthless currency with risible tax collection and 25% public employment on top of high unemployment.

marmar

(76,985 posts)
10. ........
Wed May 9, 2012, 12:10 PM
May 2012



......(snip)......

But the reality is that the economic expansion has been led by domestic consumption and investment. And it happened because the Argentine government changed its most important macroeconomic choices: on fiscal, monetary, and exchange rate policies. That is what took Argentina out of its 1998-2002 depression and turned it into the fastest-growing economy in the Americas.

Now for the world-wide significance of how Argentina's recovery actually happened: as I and many other economists have written, the policies currently being imposed on the eurozone economies – especially the weaker ones – are similar to what Argentina went through during the depression that led to its default and devaluation. These policies were pro-cyclical, meaning that they amplified the impact of the downturn. Together with a fixed, overvalued exchange rate, they made the economy worse. By defaulting on its debt and devaluing its currency, Argentina was freed to change its most important macroeconomic policies.

If the European authorities (the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the IMF) continue to block the eurozone's economic recovery with senseless austerity measures, individual countries will want to consider more rational alternatives in order to restore full employment. The people of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and other countries are told every day that they must swallow this bitter medicine, and that there is no alternative to the prolonged suffering and high unemployment that they are going through. But the Argentine experience – in reality rather than in mythical portrayals – indicates that this is not true. There are definitely better alternatives – and they have nothing to do with soybeans or commodity export booms. .............(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/may/04/argentina-magic-soybean-export-boom



hack89

(39,171 posts)
18. There are several fundamental differences between Greece and Argentina.
Wed May 9, 2012, 01:34 PM
May 2012

1. Foreign investors have for the most part already written off their loans to Greece. Writing down Greece's debt was part of the bailout. It is the other part of the bailout that Greece needs - regular cash payments from the EU in exchange for reform. They don't have the cash reserves to run the government.

2. Argentina was lucky in that their financial crisis took place at the same time as a huge run up in the price of agriculture commodities - especially soy beans. They had a massive infusion of money due to increased exports to keep the government afloat. Greece, like the rest of Europe, is experiencing an economic downturn so they cannot expect a financial windfall.

dmallind

(10,437 posts)
21. Just a few differences though
Wed May 9, 2012, 02:04 PM
May 2012

A governmental budget that is 40% of GDP not 17%

Unemployment that is more than twice as high

A lot less natural resources

Ditching a currency would put them in 1992 Argentina not 2012

And let's be honest Argentina relies on intergovernmental loans to cover deficits to an extent that would make Al Gore's lockbox melt. They have not gone to the int'l market for 10 yrs for obvious reasonds, raising every peso by dumping IOUs into the state pension kitty. What happens to the peso, and the pensioners, when those IOUs come due?

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
11. Greece should go it alone.
Wed May 9, 2012, 12:17 PM
May 2012

It would be easy to make the argument that the Germans are being pushy, demanding bastards. But if they're such bastards why do the Greeks want German currency so bad?

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
12. The Euro gave Greece access to cheap credit
Wed May 9, 2012, 12:22 PM
May 2012

It was like a teenager whose dad has cosigned for his credit card.

YellowRubberDuckie

(19,736 posts)
14. Didn't their respective countries just vote out Sarkozy AND Merkel?
Wed May 9, 2012, 12:38 PM
May 2012

Is she trying to wreak as much havok as possible before leaving? Why don't they just split back up and go it alone. Sounds like Germany is itching to go that route again. And Greece is so far gone they probably would be better off on their own.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
15. Sarkozy was vote out; There was no election in Germany, so Merkel was not running.
Wed May 9, 2012, 01:11 PM
May 2012

Greece had elections.

 

joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
24. Germany did have elections...Merkel's party did poorly...
Wed May 9, 2012, 02:10 PM
May 2012

But it doesn't affect her job...although you could argue it affects her ability to lead and her influence.

maxrandb

(15,192 posts)
27. You're absolutely right
Wed May 9, 2012, 02:43 PM
May 2012

People will be willing to accept some spending cuts and help shoulder the load, but are sick of that load being a bunch of uber-rich asshats that have been asked to sacrifice nothing.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
28. I remember when England refused to join EU for such a long time. Where they right? What exactly
Wed May 9, 2012, 02:46 PM
May 2012

are the benefits to joining EU?

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