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Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
Thu May 10, 2012, 09:50 AM May 2012

In debt or jobless, many Italians choose suicide

By Claudio Lavanga, NBC News
ASOLO, Italy – On Tuesday, Generoso Armenante, a 49-year-old former security guard at a convenience store in the southern town of Salerno, left home after having lunch with his wife – and quietly found a secluded spot where he hanged himself.

Armenante had been fired more than a year ago, and had been struggling to find another job ever since. Next to his body he left a letter: “I decided to end it because I am a failure. I can’t live without work.”
Unfortunately, he is not alone. Scores of other Italians have also chosen to take their own lives in response to the strain of the economic crisis and the consequent austerity measures.

On Tuesday, two other people committed suicide, apparently due to financial hardship. A 60-year-old businessman in Milan hanged himself from a tree after failing to repay his debts.
And a 64-year-old bricklayer in Salerno, who lost his job around Christmas, shot himself in the chest. He left a similar message: “I can’t live without a job.”

The three men are casualties of the debt crisis that has pushed Italy’s economy to the brink over the past year and put considerable strain on most Italians, especially those who own or work for small businesses. At least 34 people have killed themselves citing economic reasons since the start of the year, according to the Italian Association of Small Businesses.
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/09/11621840-in-debt-or-jobless-many-italians-choose-suicide?lite

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In debt or jobless, many Italians choose suicide (Original Post) Blue_Tires May 2012 OP
Instead of rebellions, they choose suicide. Just what the Plutocrats want. Zalatix May 2012 #1
Exactly n/t n2doc May 2012 #3
The families should send the funeral liberalhistorian May 2012 #2
Post removed Post removed May 2012 #4
Desperation and depression liberalhistorian May 2012 #5
Your idea about compassion is the exact opposite of mine. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #6
"Depression is anger directed inwards by people who will not take action liberalhistorian May 2012 #7
You do not understand depression varelse May 2012 #8
Then endorse the suicide if you want. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #9
Correctly identifying depression as a mental illness varelse May 2012 #10
The issue, obviously, is not whether depression should be identified as a mental illness. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #16
In the case of these people, what explanatory power is added by calling them "mentally ill"? HiPointDem May 2012 #27
I had a beloved nephew who committed liberalhistorian May 2012 #11
Wow, you have absolutely no understanding of depression or suicide nobodyspecial May 2012 #13
Comprehension problem? The phrase "stupid choices" referred to stupidity, not weakness or lazyness. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #15
I was referring to this statement. nobodyspecial May 2012 #20
"The classic psychodynamic theory of depression of Freud ... and his followers ... holds that AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #22
And how long ago did this theory originate? nobodyspecial May 2012 #26
That "classic theory" is over a hundred years old and, liberalhistorian May 2012 #39
lecture, pehaps not.. a soul, perhaps yes. dionysus May 2012 #38
In your opinion. Suicide seems like a great choice to a depressed person. Quantess May 2012 #12
Yes, in my opinion. And I'm skeptical that a depressed person would view it as a "great choice". AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #14
Then you've obviously never suffered from clinical liberalhistorian May 2012 #17
There are no "great choices" for a depressed person. Quantess May 2012 #18
Someone said "Suicide seems like a great choice to a depressed person." Was that you? AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #19
Yes, it was, as anyone can see. Quantess May 2012 #21
Why do you belive that you have a monopoly? You have no factual basis for that. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #24
And the jury says.... Quantess May 2012 #28
I agree with jurors #1, 2, and 3. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #30
A bright person would find something to learn from this exchange. Quantess May 2012 #32
Patronizing much? liberalhistorian May 2012 #44
stupid how? magical thyme May 2012 #23
Did you read #1. As observed by Zalatix, "Instead of rebellions, they choose suicide." AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #25
You act as though rebellion is available as a choice. One can't make a rebellion alone. HiPointDem May 2012 #29
Wow. Over the top. Ease up on the caffine. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #31
fail to see what you telling me not to drink coffee has to do with my post. HiPointDem May 2012 #33
Let me guess: you are under 18 Quantess May 2012 #35
Wrong again. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #36
maybe just a newt roll. HiPointDem May 2012 #45
that does not make the choice stupid magical thyme May 2012 #34
"I can't live without a job" heartbreaking. Liberal_in_LA May 2012 #37
I find this very sad. Dash87 May 2012 #40
It is sad varelse May 2012 #43
I have a problem believing this treestar May 2012 #41
The same thing's been going on in Japan for years now... TheMightyFavog May 2012 #42

liberalhistorian

(20,809 posts)
2. The families should send the funeral
Thu May 10, 2012, 10:06 AM
May 2012

bills to Angela Merkel and her minions, along with a note telling her to shove her backfiring "austerity" bullshit that is only causing the situation to get worse in every nation where it's been imposed. Robert Reich and Paul Krugman can explain the economic whys of that far better than I can, but Merkel just isn't listening and refuses to even consider listening. People can't pay the higher and higher taxes demanded of them if they can't find work or, in the case of many Greek and Italian state and public workers, are not being paid for their work but still expected to work and pay ever higher taxes that then get sucked up into the payments demanded by Merkel and Company instead of being put into growth measures that would create and maintain jobs and economic growth. Why the hell she and her minions cannot see that is simply beyond me.

Response to Blue_Tires (Original post)

liberalhistorian

(20,809 posts)
5. Desperation and depression
Thu May 10, 2012, 12:52 PM
May 2012

and having no money and no job and no idea when you'll get either, yet still being expected to pay draconian taxes imposed by another country and facing sanctions if you don't, can really do a number on you and your sanity. How about some compassion and care for those caught in this horrible situation, largely thanks to the anti-growth austerity bullshit?

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
6. Your idea about compassion is the exact opposite of mine.
Thu May 10, 2012, 01:54 PM
May 2012

I can understand desperation. I can understand anger. Depression is anger directed inwards by people who will not take action even when their backs are against the wall. I don't need a lecture. If you think that your sense of compassion is greater than mine, what have you done other than to post on a board?

liberalhistorian

(20,809 posts)
7. "Depression is anger directed inwards by people who will not take action
Thu May 10, 2012, 07:31 PM
May 2012

even when their backs are against the wall". You're kidding right? You DO know that the cruelly invidious thing about depression is that it totally saps any ability to take any action whatsoever? And how do you know these people didn't take any action? How do you know they didn't spend months in a fruitless search for work, which, in a nation with over twenty percent unemployment (more than that in Greece and up to FIFTY PERCENT unemployment for younger people)? Many times, depression comes precisely BECAUSE no action you take is working at all, no matter what you do. And yes, you DO need a lecture. Being hateful to people who're economically depressed enough to take their own lives is truly sick and sad. And it doesn't belong here on this site.

And as for what I've done-a helluva lot, in a lot of different areas, including mental health and particularly since I'm prone to depression myself and want to help others in the same boat. I just don't go around bragging about it 'cause I don't do it for pats on the back.

varelse

(4,062 posts)
10. Correctly identifying depression as a mental illness
Fri May 11, 2012, 08:34 AM
May 2012

is not the same as endorsing the fact that it is sometimes fatal.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
16. The issue, obviously, is not whether depression should be identified as a mental illness.
Fri May 11, 2012, 01:39 PM
May 2012

The issue is whether the anger that some of the Italians feel should be directed internally or externally.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
27. In the case of these people, what explanatory power is added by calling them "mentally ill"?
Fri May 11, 2012, 02:58 PM
May 2012

They couldn't get work. They *state* that they can't survive without work.

Rather than crawl around begging they preferred to chose their own death.

How is that "mental illness"?

It's ridiculous.

liberalhistorian

(20,809 posts)
11. I had a beloved nephew who committed
Fri May 11, 2012, 10:19 AM
May 2012

suicide, which was devastating for our family, even these twelve years later. But do we get angry at/blame him, call him names, stupid, put him down, etc.? No, we most assuredly do not. Why? Because he was in the grip of a horrendous bout of depression/paranoia, as part of his bipolar illness, which is MEDICAL and BIOCHEMICAL. He was not a "moral failure", he didn't "refuse to take action when his back was to the wall" or any other such bullshit hateful garbage you're spewing. I hope you never suffer from depression or related conditions and, if you do, you're treated and considered a lot better than you would have done for others in the same situation.

nobodyspecial

(2,286 posts)
13. Wow, you have absolutely no understanding of depression or suicide
Fri May 11, 2012, 11:21 AM
May 2012

You should do some more research before making such ignorant comments, implying the person is weak or lazy. It is very insulting and cruel to those whose lives have been rocked by this mental illness. Great insights have been gained through thermo-imaging. Please enlighten yourself.

http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih5/mental/guide/info-mental-b.htm

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2011/mental-illness-defined-as-disruption-in-neural-circuits.shtml

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/brain-mental-illness

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
15. Comprehension problem? The phrase "stupid choices" referred to stupidity, not weakness or lazyness.
Fri May 11, 2012, 01:32 PM
May 2012

I can give you an explanation. I can't give you understanding.

nobodyspecial

(2,286 posts)
20. I was referring to this statement.
Fri May 11, 2012, 02:03 PM
May 2012

Depression is anger directed inwards by people who will not take action even when their backs are against the wall.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
22. "The classic psychodynamic theory of depression of Freud ... and his followers ... holds that
Fri May 11, 2012, 02:12 PM
May 2012

depression represents anger directed inward..."
from Mood Disorders and Suicide
http://www.csun.edu/~hcpsy002/0135128978_ch08.pdf

See also DSM IV TR.

Did you think that this concept originated with me? Or do you disagree with Freud, his followers, and DSM IV TR?

nobodyspecial

(2,286 posts)
26. And how long ago did this theory originate?
Fri May 11, 2012, 02:54 PM
May 2012

How does it correlate with the new findings and current research, particularly in the area of brain mapping? Did you even look at the links I've provided?

liberalhistorian

(20,809 posts)
39. That "classic theory" is over a hundred years old and,
Fri May 11, 2012, 09:02 PM
May 2012

has largely fallen out of favor, like so many other theories of its originator. Much more recent and current research that says otherwise, as well as that shows it's often biochemical/physical, is far more relevant and is the norm today. Although Freud would have had a lot more understanding than you do for those suffering from it.

liberalhistorian

(20,809 posts)
17. Then you've obviously never suffered from clinical
Fri May 11, 2012, 01:48 PM
May 2012

depression or suicidal ideation. It's not that they think it's that "great" of a choice, it's that, in their pain, they see no other choice, they just want the pain to end and can't see any other way out. Not that you care.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
18. There are no "great choices" for a depressed person.
Fri May 11, 2012, 01:54 PM
May 2012

But they might feel death is their best option. To cease to exist would be the best thing that could ever happen to them.

Still don't get it? Never mind, you had to be there.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
21. Yes, it was, as anyone can see.
Fri May 11, 2012, 02:05 PM
May 2012

I have "been there". I have felt suicidal.
Now, would you like to split hairs over whether death feels like a "great choice" or the "best choice"? Hopefully you will just back down and admit that you don't know what real depression is like.

Edit to add: maybe you just read the titles? Click on (View All) to read all responses. Just, FYI.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
24. Why do you belive that you have a monopoly? You have no factual basis for that.
Fri May 11, 2012, 02:17 PM
May 2012

It's good to see that you are not internalizing so much, or at least not so much at the present.

Don't fall back into your old thinking pattern. Get out more. Socialize more, and do so in a productive way.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
28. And the jury says....
Fri May 11, 2012, 03:03 PM
May 2012

At Fri May 11, 2012, 02:24 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Why do you belive that you have a monopoly? You have no factual basis for that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=675564

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

This person is attacking everyone who has been clinically depressed. Also very condescending to me, personally. This jerk doesn't know me!

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri May 11, 2012, 03:00 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: As someone who has suffered from depression my entire life, I agree with the post and see nothing hurtful or condescending. If you're going to expose yourself on a site, you need to be prepared for all sorts of "helpful hints". I doubt he/she meant any harm.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: I've suffered on and off from clinical depression for years. I don't think this poster is being malevolent, just simple-minded and utterly uninformed about a very serious problem. This adds nothing to the discussion and just doesn't sit well with me.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
32. A bright person would find something to learn from this exchange.
Fri May 11, 2012, 03:41 PM
May 2012

And, I'm pretty sure you don't get it.

Also, what "monopoly" are you talking about?

liberalhistorian

(20,809 posts)
44. Patronizing much?
Fri May 11, 2012, 10:10 PM
May 2012

Would you ask a diabetic or cancer patient if he or she were doing what they could to "think" it away?

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
23. stupid how?
Fri May 11, 2012, 02:14 PM
May 2012

they see no way forward, no way out, no end in sight.

Sad choices, yes. But perhaps they prefer a quick end to slow starvation.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
25. Did you read #1. As observed by Zalatix, "Instead of rebellions, they choose suicide."
Fri May 11, 2012, 02:20 PM
May 2012

Apply your own innate logic.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
29. You act as though rebellion is available as a choice. One can't make a rebellion alone.
Fri May 11, 2012, 03:07 PM
May 2012

Eating while one tries to find people to make a rebellion with is a problem, as it is while making the rebellion. Current conditions give little indication that any rebellion is likely to succeed.

Yet the suicide is blamed because he didn't make one.

Maybe this tendency to focus on the individual and his "mental illness," his "stupidity," his lack of courage and innovativeness as he didn't "choose" to make a rebellion instead of getting rid of the self that seemed to have no social or economic reason to exist -- is part of the problem.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
33. fail to see what you telling me not to drink coffee has to do with my post.
Fri May 11, 2012, 04:06 PM
May 2012

except to dismiss it with a personal attack

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
34. that does not make the choice stupid
Fri May 11, 2012, 04:13 PM
May 2012

Suicide by one's own hand versus suicide by another's. One is swift and certain. The other may not be. Still doesn't make the choice stupid.

Apply your own logic. You still have not explained why it is automatically a stupid choice. Some people choose to rebel. Others may have already had the rebellion beaten out of them and choose to simply leave. You don't know the individual circumstance, and therefore you don't know the basis of their choice.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
40. I find this very sad.
Fri May 11, 2012, 09:06 PM
May 2012

Depression is a disease, and imo, suicide is the fatal end result of this disease. While many who are depressed do not kill themselves, I wish the social stigma of suicide would go away so that we can talk about it.

I have never been clinically depressed myself, but I know people who are. Suicide absolutely flips peoples' worlds upside down, and rips lives apart.

varelse

(4,062 posts)
43. It is sad
Fri May 11, 2012, 09:51 PM
May 2012

And as one who has been clinically depressed several times (including when I was 10 years old) I appreciate your understanding and empathy.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
41. I have a problem believing this
Fri May 11, 2012, 09:10 PM
May 2012

statistically. Aren't most Italians Catholic? Suicide is not an option for Catholics.

TheMightyFavog

(13,770 posts)
42. The same thing's been going on in Japan for years now...
Fri May 11, 2012, 09:23 PM
May 2012

I remember reading somewhere that the Aokigahara Forest near Mt. Fuji that has been a popular suicide spot for some reason, they have suicide helpline signs placed all over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aokigahara

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