Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
Thu May 10, 2012, 03:53 PM May 2012

I am seeking answers.

This is not meant to be sarcastic. And I apologize in advance if it offends anyone. I am honestly seeking an answer.

I have read that the conservatives are saying President Obama, the Democratic Party and liberals in general are "declaring war" on religion and infringing on peoples "freedom of religion".

Also, I was talking to a Christian friend a while back who went into a 5 minute rant on how he was "sick and tired of having his religious freedoms taken away".
When I asked how were his freedoms being taken away his answer was;
By wanting gay marriage, legal abortion, gambling and other social issues.
By not being able to pray at his kids ballgame.
Not being able to read the Bible in school.
The schools couldn't teach creationism.
The city not being able to put up a nativity set.
I didn’t discuss the social issues but did the others.
I clarified with him that each would be geared toward the Christian religion. I then asked what if someone in the stadium, classroom or city weren’t Christians, what about the Jews, Muslims, or Atheist (all of which are very possible to be in our area to name a few). His answer was it wasn't fair he couldn't practice his religion as he wished.
I then asked what if we did all he wanted but there were also prayers of the Islamic faith, or readings from the Koran, or had displays of the Buddha, or taught reincarnation? His answer was no that would infringe on his freedom of religion. "I don't want my kids taught crap like that".
Basically, he see no problem having his religion and it’s teaching in any and all venues while not wanting any other religion also present.
I asked when was the last time the police didn’t let him go to church, or he had to go the the official church?
He of course couldn’t answer because it hasn’t happened.

The exact wording of the U.S. Constitution says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."

As I understand it that means, "Congress can not create a National Religion, or stop people from practicing any religion they wish (even if it is no religion). But, I am not a constitutional lawyer.

But, why do SOME Christians feel it means, “We are a Christian nation, and I have the freedom/right to practice Christianity but other religions are not allowed.” In other words, freedom to practice MY religion.

To me it seems that to me that SOME Christians feel the only way they can have “their” freedom of religion, is to impose “their” beliefs on all others while not allowing any others the same.

Why should one person’s freedom to practice religion infringe another’s?

Like I said, I am not being sarcastic. I really want someone to explain this to me.

14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
I am seeking answers. (Original Post) SoutherDem May 2012 OP
What is it that you want explained? jberryhill May 2012 #1
They are using a hot-button issue to make you look away from the corporations rustydog May 2012 #2
Research ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2012 #3
LOL!!! Jazzgirl May 2012 #7
Thank you for specifying "some" Christians gratuitous May 2012 #4
"some" Christians SoutherDem May 2012 #6
"I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics ... Tierra_y_Libertad May 2012 #5
"Why should one person's freedom to practice religion infringe another's?" cynatnite May 2012 #8
IOW ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2012 #11
Because they have been preached that for so long that they've forgotten how to think for themselves. hamsterjill May 2012 #9
Thanks for the reply and I agree SoutherDem May 2012 #12
A Suggestion.... chowder66 May 2012 #10
Thanks for the suggestion SoutherDem May 2012 #13
I hope it helps chowder66 May 2012 #14
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
1. What is it that you want explained?
Thu May 10, 2012, 04:00 PM
May 2012

Why do people like your friend see things from a completely self-centered perspective, and can't understand that free exercise is a two-way street?

I have no idea, other than that is some folks' natural inclination to think that way.

What you have is the freedom to practice your religion. You don't have the right to involve other people in your exercise of your religion, nor to have the government involve itself in your exercise of your religion.

rustydog

(9,186 posts)
2. They are using a hot-button issue to make you look away from the corporations
Thu May 10, 2012, 04:03 PM
May 2012

that want to deregulate everything and pass tax cuts for the uber-wealthy (Mitt Rawmoneys of the world)
They don't give a shit about the auto industry, pollution, global warming, war on rligion, war on women, war on war...they care aboutand badly want an ignorant, angry electorate.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
3. Research ...
Thu May 10, 2012, 04:05 PM
May 2012

Sullivan's (1958) proposed four levels of "interpersonal maturity and interpersonal integration." (Michel Hersen et al., Comprehensive Handbook of Psychological Assessment: Personality Assessment (2004) p. 602)

Then, add the term: "Arrested."

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
4. Thank you for specifying "some" Christians
Thu May 10, 2012, 04:10 PM
May 2012

As for your friend and his particular pathology, I suspect it has more to do with a preoccupation with being able to claim the mantle of victimhood than with anything that's actually happened to him. As Mark Twain once wryly noted, "I have . . . had many troubles, most of which never happened." The appeal to being wronged is meant to solicit sympathy, and it really wrecks the ploy when someone starts getting into specifics. You'll see the same behavior in a four-year-old, who goes running to Mom or Dad, tearfully sobbing out the sad story of a horrible injustice ("Bobby hit me for No Good Reason!&quot . Upon further inquiry, it turns out that Bobby didn't hit little Marblehead, but pushed him away because he was being a complete pest and ignored several warnings from Bobby to leave him alone.

In this instance, it has to do with religion, but there are any number of instances where it has to do with some other perceived injustice, many of which likewise never happened.

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
6. "some" Christians
Thu May 10, 2012, 04:31 PM
May 2012

Yes, I know it isn't all Christians. And honestly I am not sure if any of the Christians who would agree with my friend would be on DU to begin with so I may be fishing in an empty pond. But, I thought I would give it a shot, maybe if nothing else someone on DU has had the conversation with someone who feels this way and received a good answer.

I will add, thus far when I talk to my friend and people with his attitude, it is like a visit to the Twilight Zone. It is as if they can't (won't) understand why from my point of view their attitude doesn't make sense.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
5. "I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics ...
Thu May 10, 2012, 04:26 PM
May 2012
"I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man´s reasoning powers are not above the monkey´s." - Mark Twain

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
8. "Why should one person's freedom to practice religion infringe another's?"
Thu May 10, 2012, 04:44 PM
May 2012

They deem themselves exceptional...above all others and the same goes for their religion. They say it is above all and the best.

No religion should infringe on another and on a person who chooses not to practice a religion.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
11. IOW ...
Thu May 10, 2012, 05:40 PM
May 2012

They are exceptional because their interpretation of their religion tells them so; AND, their interpretation of their religion is exceptional, because they subscribe to the belief that their interpretation of their religion tells them they are exceptional.

Dizzying isn't it?

hamsterjill

(15,214 posts)
9. Because they have been preached that for so long that they've forgotten how to think for themselves.
Thu May 10, 2012, 04:55 PM
May 2012

Well, for one thing (because there are many)...

As a Christian myself, I hear this kind of crap from people all the time. "Obama is trying to take away our religious freedoms", etc. That frustrates me, personally, to no end!

I do believe that there is some history of a relationship between the government of the United States of America and Christianity, in general. Like the "In God We Trust" on money, etc.

BUT...the Constitution says exactly what you illustrate. So any relationship has been created more by habit than by law. There is no law making Christianity the national religion.

I truly find when I encounter these types of people that I am dealing with someone who hasn't taken the time to think any of their assertions through. They are merely espousing the same things that they've heard from the pulpit. When questioned, just as you illustrate, they generally can't or won't answer, and storm off in a huff. They cannot fathom the notion that they are denying religious freedom to someone who believes differently than they do.

The fact that they choose not to think for themselves does NOT excuse them, however, in my opinion, because they need to think for themselves, and they are responsible for their own behavior. Hate is still hate, regardless of whether it is camouflaged in scripture.

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
12. Thanks for the reply and I agree
Thu May 10, 2012, 06:43 PM
May 2012

Also, on the "in God we Trust" and even "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance were added during the communist hysterical 1950's the first 1956 and the later 1954.

chowder66

(9,011 posts)
10. A Suggestion....
Thu May 10, 2012, 05:26 PM
May 2012

You might try this.....???

"This is something you will need to spend more time reflecting on personally in order to find your answer". Ask this person to ask themself why it is other people in the same religion (Christianity) do not view his/her stated issues in the same way?
There are many Christians that tolerate, support or view this persons stated issues differently.

It would be best to compare from within (differing views within the same religion). It's closer to home. There will most likely be common ground with other members of the same church or various Christian religions/churches....and there may also be perspectives this person has never considered". In otherwords they need to do more soul-searching.

Why for instance.. does this person pick out these issues but not things like poverty, greed and the lack of grace in this country. The list can go on.

They are thinking about this in a way that restricts growth (spiritual growth and/or social growth). They need to talk to those they feel less afraid of. They may be more likely to become less defensive (lowering walls) in order to actually hear and listen to the point of view of others. And hopefully they will learn something.

SoutherDem

(2,307 posts)
13. Thanks for the suggestion
Thu May 10, 2012, 06:54 PM
May 2012

I will try it. That is a good idea.
On subjects such as poverty and grace he is very "Old Testament", eye for an eye. As to greed he is somewhat on our side as to corporate greed, but is very "it not my place to pay for someone else's ____." Although unless he and his wife make a whole lot more than I think, He well never be paying anymore in taxes than he receives in benefits.

chowder66

(9,011 posts)
14. I hope it helps
Fri May 11, 2012, 04:02 PM
May 2012

I am not religious but I have or have had friends that are. I have one friend who is very religious (when she talks about it) but then she constantly lives a life that is completely counter to much of what she says she believes. I see it as a bit lazy/or easy to just recite from the bible or use generally accepted statements of belief to support a position. She even wanted me to get baptized so she could be my godmother. This was way back in high school. I was flattered but I had to tell her and her family that I would be doing a great disservice to accept religion without truly believing it. It would be hypocrisy at its worst... and I would not be willing to go into it half hearted let alone completely without belief. They actually understood this very well and were very grateful that I was honest with them. I never thought I gave them any reason to think I would become a religious person but I guess since I listened to them and asked questions they thought I was interested. It wasn't the first time I encountered an interesting religious moment.

I went to a private catholic high school after attending public school. My parents wanted a better education for me. I do not come from a religious family with the exception of one member.....so I was in for a real treat when I went to this school. It actually freaked me out. I was not too thrilled by all of the rituals. However, in my Bible study class I kept asking about all of the contridictions in the bible and how religious people square away what people say when their actions are the opposite. At one point the kids in the class got angry and were starting to pile on when the teacher/nun stopped them and said that I was raising important questions and that it makes people think.... which can in turn give a better understanding of how to interpret the bible and even can strenghthen ones convictions.
I never again had any problems in that class and even made many friends shortly after. No one tried to convert me either.

I am not a fan of organized religion, people should be able to have a personal relationship with whomever they want but the lack of thinking is not helping these people so I find the best way to appeal to them is to ask them to explore other views "from within". That can be from within their family, friends, church, denomination or other religious bodies - all should be explored in my opinion before trying to push their arguments onto those who are on the opposite side of the issues.
That is what I did without being raised in a religious family and I started this before I went to a religious school. I was trying to figure out how people have faith and/or "believe". I remember wanting so bad to believe in fairies and ufo's when I was a kid but I just couldn't get there. I couldn't say okay.... I believe.... and now I will defend that belief and see those who don't as uninformed or crazy or whatever. Couldn't do it. Wouldn't do it.

I feel like some people truly do not know that they can have a moral compass without religion. Some even know that you can have/develope a moral compass without religion and yet still be religious and/or spiritual mainly because some ideas naturally sync up.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»I am seeking answers.