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SWTORFanatic

(385 posts)
Wed May 16, 2012, 03:50 PM May 2012

Straight white male privilege - spinoff from other thread. I'll try to explain.

I think if anyone can do this, I can. As I was born male but am transgendered and have lived the last 7 or so years as a female. So I've seen both sides of things, in a sense. I am white, for what it's worth.

As a male, you are given preferential treatment in that you probably "know more" in subjects that are more important economically. Math, science, engineering, finance, IT - all viewed as male dominated and moreover, expected for men to be good at and women to be bad at. Ever heard "men are bad at math?". I sure haven't. I've heard "women are bad at math" (or at least "men are usually better at math&quot though. Ask a woman who works in an IT department and people calling will often ask to be transferred to the IT department (still) when they hear that female voice. Also, sometimes watch interactions between people when talking about something related to the subjects I listed above. Often if there is 1 male, 1 female, and one other person of either gender, the person asking the questions or saying what is going on will look right at the man and not say anything to the woman or ask her anything. An utterly famous example of this is for a husband and wife or boyfriend and girlfriend or father and daughter or mother and son to take a car in for repairs. The mechanic will so often talk to the guy about what is going wrong. Try it! You could say this may be because a lot of male mechanics might be sexist, but like I said the example holds in other cases as well. Even a woman asking a male IT person and female IT person about something will usually talk to the guy. Now this can be negated if the female IT person or female customer or whatever proves she really knows her stuff, but she doesn't get that assumption like the guy does.

Of course someone asking about how to arrange flowers might be more inclined to talk to a woman, but how much do florists make compared to engineers? They might also be more inclined to talk to an obviously gay guy (if one works there) over a woman too.

Also consider this. For every race/gender/sexual orientation combination, there is a word (actually multiple words) designed to put that person down. The "f" word for gay males. The "d" word for lesbians. The "n" word for black people. The "b" or "w" word for hispanics. The "c" word for asians. The "t" word for arab/middle eastern people. The "c" or "b" words for women. Why is there no such word for straight white males? Well, I guess there are a few, like the "r" word, but they certainly don't sting as bad as those other words. Moreover, most of those words for straight white males refer more to the person's intelligence or socio-economic status than his gender (you can also call a white woman an "r" word). Is there an offensive word for a middle class or rich white straight male, other than maybe "out of touch"? You certainly couldn't even call such a person an "r" word without getting laughed at, but you can definitely call even a billionaire woman a "c" word and have it still bite.

Yes, as a male my intelligence was respected more. I was spoken to differently than I am now.

Also an old joke about transgender women goes like this: The most painful part of becoming a woman is not getting your penis or testicles cut off, it's getting your pay cut in half.

This is not to say of course that one will always succeed as a straight white male. In fact, now as a lesbian white female I've been far more successful than I was before. And more successful (at least in terms of wealth and working conditions) than my parents and I'm only 31 years old. I've certainly had to face more discrimination though and the only reason my intelligence is respected is because I'm a college math professor. People who don't know my profession often still talk to me like I'm a child which didn't really happen before (except by extremely pompous a-holes). People who work at auto parts stores or mechanics certainly assume I know little to nothing until I actually speak to them for awhile. That didn't happen before either.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Straight white male privilege - spinoff from other thread. I'll try to explain. (Original Post) SWTORFanatic May 2012 OP
Simply JustAnotherGen May 2012 #1
great post, thank you very much for sharing Scout May 2012 #2
Didn't see that thread. SWTORFanatic May 2012 #5
are you talking about the thread, madrast posted, video of woman seabeyond May 2012 #30
Interesting thoughts snooper2 May 2012 #3
I think some of it has to do with cultural norms too. Yes, the man is SWTORFanatic May 2012 #4
Excellent post. n/t DLevine May 2012 #6
I have to interject a point here. Llewlladdwr May 2012 #7
I attribute my increased success as a LWW with the following SWTORFanatic May 2012 #10
But where does the 'white privilege' come in? Llewlladdwr May 2012 #11
Like I said, I was treated as far smarter in random situations as a SWTORFanatic May 2012 #13
But how can you positively attribute that to 'white privilege'? Llewlladdwr May 2012 #17
I mean I saw a general pattern of being thought of as smarter about SWTORFanatic May 2012 #20
You make many good points and I think did a pretty good job covering jp11 May 2012 #8
I get somewhat confused by the white privilege threads. upaloopa May 2012 #9
Cognitive dissonance. lumberjack_jeff May 2012 #12
You assume I've had surgery. And since I changed genders so SWTORFanatic May 2012 #15
Actually, Straight White Male is starting to sting a little. Llewlladdwr May 2012 #19
Fair enough. But I never said straight white males are the SWTORFanatic May 2012 #21
Agreed, you did not. Llewlladdwr May 2012 #26
I'll just sit my entitled cracker ass down here under this bus. lumberjack_jeff May 2012 #23
I am in complete agreement here, aka-chmeee May 2012 #29
Yes, I did make that assumption. Thanks for clarifying. lumberjack_jeff May 2012 #24
I feel that the privileges I got for being white, male, and straight are more than outweighed by... slackmaster May 2012 #14
More divide and conquer drivel. 99Forever May 2012 #16
It is NOT meant to divide and conquer. But thanks anyway! SWTORFanatic May 2012 #18
"Meant to" or not.. 99Forever May 2012 #28
I'm not saying that there might not be some privilege..... justanaverageguy May 2012 #22
The bit about IT is definitely true ProfessionalLeftist May 2012 #25
wonderful. i love your story. thank you for sharing and you are right on. this weekend seabeyond May 2012 #27
Thank you for sharing your experience. MadrasT May 2012 #31

Scout

(8,624 posts)
2. great post, thank you very much for sharing
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:00 PM
May 2012

the only person that i know, that i know is transgendered is male to female ... she has many observations that agree with yours.

she is treated differently now than when she was a man, and not always for the better.

did you see the thread about how men talk about women when they don't know another man used to be a woman? very interesting.

SWTORFanatic

(385 posts)
5. Didn't see that thread.
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:13 PM
May 2012

No I haven't seen that thread. However, I used to know a male to female transgendered woman who had a female to male transgendered man as a friend. So friend of a friend. She asked him "does male privilege exist?" and he said "hell effing yeah it does!"

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
30. are you talking about the thread, madrast posted, video of woman
Thu May 17, 2012, 01:27 AM
May 2012

Who took the male role for 18 months? It was a 45 minute video. She wrote a book. Totally interesting. I had a fun conversation with my family that night about that video.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
3. Interesting thoughts
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:02 PM
May 2012

In your mechanics examples, do you think that it might be because 80+ % of the time it is the man who brought the car who has done any diagnosis or can explain the symptoms?


Another example...My wife and I went to Sears a year ago to get some pictures done with our daughter. The lady and guy behind the desk immediately started talking to my wife about options and looking at our daughter totally ignoring me, until she told them I knew what prints/size/amount we wanted to get since I had done all the checking online already.

SWTORFanatic

(385 posts)
4. I think some of it has to do with cultural norms too. Yes, the man is
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:11 PM
May 2012

more likely to bring the car in. He's also more likely to say "I think it might be x or y" than the woman.

Regarding your photography example, yes I can see that as common too. Here's the thing though, again, men are perceived to be more adept at the "highly important" (economically speaking) tasks. If women are perceived to be more adept at anything, it's stuff that "doesn't matter much" (again, economically speaking). Also ignoring a female IT person might be because the woman is thought of as less knowledgeable than the man, whereas there's a good chance a photo clerk talking to the woman isn't doing so necessarily because the wife or girlfriend knows more, but that she probably cares more about how the photos turn out. It could go either way though; she may also be thought of as more adept at the subject.

Llewlladdwr

(2,165 posts)
7. I have to interject a point here.
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:17 PM
May 2012

As a SWM I find it much safer for me personally to restrict my public dealings to other adult males whenever possible. One never wants to be alone with a woman or child to whom one is not related in order to avoid accusations of impropriety. Call me paranoid, but those are my feelings.

And also, a question. How do you reconcile SWM 'white privilege' with your increased success since becoming a LWW? Shouldn't your situation have gotten worse?

SWTORFanatic

(385 posts)
10. I attribute my increased success as a LWW with the following
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:28 PM
May 2012

1. Even as a male I had long hair. As long as my hair is now (although I ended up dying dark brown and my natural color is blonde). Men with long hair are treated pretty crappy too.

2. Depression and other mental health issues.

3. I transitioned young. Right out of college at 22 years old. So I had a degree but no experience. Also, even right out of college I was already in that transition stage where I looked kind of neither male nor female. Before that even when I looked male with long hair, well I didn't even have a college degree yet.

4. After transitioning a bit more, I went back to school and got a master's degree.

Llewlladdwr

(2,165 posts)
11. But where does the 'white privilege' come in?
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:37 PM
May 2012

I'm happy for you that your life has taken an upward turn (may we all be so lucky!), but none of these things have anything to do with 'white privilege'. I'm truly trying to understand this but what people are calling 'white privilege' sounds a lot more like 'wealthy privilege' to me.

SWTORFanatic

(385 posts)
13. Like I said, I was treated as far smarter in random situations as a
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:40 PM
May 2012

20 year old college kid because I was thought of as male than I am as a 31 year old adult woman!

Llewlladdwr

(2,165 posts)
17. But how can you positively attribute that to 'white privilege'?
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:48 PM
May 2012

Especially if the situations are random? This seems very situationally dependant to me. I've been thought more knowledgable about certain subjects and less about others than I actually am also. Isn't this just part of the human condition? I'm not trying to denigrate your life experiences here, just pointing out that this is something that everyone encounters.

SWTORFanatic

(385 posts)
20. I mean I saw a general pattern of being thought of as smarter about
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:52 PM
May 2012

"economically more important" things as a male than as a female. I think you're thinking of random in a different sense than I am.

jp11

(2,104 posts)
8. You make many good points and I think did a pretty good job covering
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:24 PM
May 2012

most things.

I'd add that whatever you think about it many of the words not meant to put down 'straight white males' are in fact used to put down others and used on "SWM" to remove their manhood.

As a 'straight white male' I did not 'see' this privileged treatment, even if I got it, as I was and am not the stereotypical 'male'. While you touched on this there is more to it as there is in general to this subject.

I fully admit I am sick of this topic as no one knows what anyone else has gone through and making assumptions, even realistic/semi-accurate ones don't really help us with anything. I find myself so often put off by these threads, there have been several, as they usually go bad if they don't start there.

I don't put down other people's experiences or try to claim "I've had it worse" but I do get annoyed at being told how "great" I had it. Nor do I feel really warm inside when I'm told how "it is" when *I* don't think like this or behave like this to other people.

Just saying, good luck with the thread.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
9. I get somewhat confused by the white privilege threads.
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:25 PM
May 2012

I'm white male 66 years old. Do I know white male privileges exists? Is the pope Catholic? Do bears shit in the woods? Did I sleep walk my life for 66 years?

I grew up in the 50's and 60's where white male privilege was the excepted norm. Minorities and women knew their place. My parents taught me what everyone's place was. Place was decided by your sex, your race, your creed and your economic status.

There is a line in the movie "Mississippi Burning" that goes like this, "If you ain't any better than a "n word", then who are you better than." May dad use to say that to me.

For some reason I did not except their teachings. I did not except that because we were poor whites that I had a "place" that I had to keep in. That I had to look up to certain other wealthy whites so that I could get the crumbs that fell off their table.

I traveled to Columbus Georgia where we spent a Sunday morning in an elderly Black woman's home talking to her 4 grand daughters about what life was like for them. They could not go across the bridge to downtown unless a white person was with them. They could not go to the movies unless a white person was with them.

They wanted us to take them up North with us. I even got a very good letter from one of the girls pleading for me to come get her so she could move up North.

My first wife could not get credit in her name because she was a married woman. I worked as a banquet waiter with Black co-workers who invited me to their parties and took me to James Brown concerts.
I moved CA in the eighties and spent as much time with LGBT people as I did straight people. We were a steady group who went out on weekends to West Hollywood and to Dillon's a popular dance club.

Yeah I was treated better because I was white. I did not like it and never accepted the idea. I don't care who you are what you look like who you have sex with, I am your equal and vise versa.

You know privilege is given it is not taken. Being born white and being granted privilege is not something you had a choice in but how you treat other people and how you accept the privilege or not is something you can do something about.

Yeah I now all about white privilege and you aren't telling me something I don't already know.

What you can teach is how we should all treat each other and how to refuse privilege when it is given to you.


On edit I remember another kind of privilege that was offered to me and I refused. I was in Vietnam on Christmas eve in 1967. I had just come from the field dirty and wearing a flak jacket and my helmet and rifle but with no sign of rank on my arm. I walked to the midnight mass in Long Binh and some private ran up to me and told me that I had a place down front and he was going to take me to it. He thought I was an officer because he could not tell my rank. I told him no because I was looking for some of my friends which I was.

So yeah I had a lot of privilege and refused a lot.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
12. Cognitive dissonance.
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:38 PM
May 2012

Your personal experience is that being a lesbian female is correlated to an improvement in your wealth and working conditions. Yet, you're posting to explain to us the nature of male privilege with which your personal experience is inconsistent.

Apparently, contrary to the conventional wisdom that you're repeating, your male sex organs were returned for a bounty.

Your personal story doesn't shed any light on the nature of racial privilege.

SWTORFanatic

(385 posts)
15. You assume I've had surgery. And since I changed genders so
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:46 PM
May 2012

young it's not really fair to say that's the reason I've been more successful lately.

Yeah, a white female with a graduate degree is going to be better off than a white male who hasn't even finished undergrad. And had long hair (also a negative as a male). That in a sense is also more of a class thing too - people with graduate degrees are pretty much universally assumed to be middle or upper class.

And my personal story doesn't shed light on racial privilege - I'm not naive enough to assume what's like to be black or hispanic. However, I did point out, that yes, there is not a single slur that will actually sting a middle or upper class straight white male that points out he is a straight white male. The only insults are ones that try to take that status away from him, ie something like calling him gay or a woman (as an insult! really!)

Llewlladdwr

(2,165 posts)
19. Actually, Straight White Male is starting to sting a little.
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:52 PM
May 2012

It gets old being told you're the embodiment of everything wrong with the world.

On edit: For example, apparently I've been playing Real Life in easy mode all these years. Who knew?

SWTORFanatic

(385 posts)
21. Fair enough. But I never said straight white males are the
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:54 PM
May 2012

embodiment of everything wrong with the world. I'll admit some people have, though.

Llewlladdwr

(2,165 posts)
26. Agreed, you did not.
Wed May 16, 2012, 05:02 PM
May 2012

But you can surely see how SWMs may be feeling a little defensive with all the rhetoric that's flying. I honestly do not see how my orientation, race and gender have given me a leg up in the world.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
23. I'll just sit my entitled cracker ass down here under this bus.
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:57 PM
May 2012

Who knew that the #1 difficulty setting renders you 50% less likely to graduate from college and 14% more likely to die on the job than your sister? Go figure.

aka-chmeee

(1,129 posts)
29. I am in complete agreement here,
Thu May 17, 2012, 12:10 AM
May 2012

Although I guess my skin is thick enough, the sting is only an annoyance. I don't mind providing an excuse for failure to anyone who wants one, although when you provide someone with a crutch, it seems like very bad manners for them to beat you over the head with it all the time.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
24. Yes, I did make that assumption. Thanks for clarifying.
Wed May 16, 2012, 05:01 PM
May 2012

But I wonder why "straight white male" privilege is ALWAYS used as a rhetorical package deal? I agree that being white and straight confers advantage in most circumstances. Being a man does not.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
14. I feel that the privileges I got for being white, male, and straight are more than outweighed by...
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:40 PM
May 2012

...my poor eyesight.

I'd trade my white skin and poor eyes for black skin and normal vision.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
16. More divide and conquer drivel.
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:48 PM
May 2012

Thanks, just what we need with so many of us looking destitution in the eye. Jus' freakin' wunnerful.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
28. "Meant to" or not..
Wed May 16, 2012, 05:50 PM
May 2012

.. that's exactly what this kind of crap does. But just keep right on pushing the "we are all just po'po' victims" on the evil, ever privileged white males" meme.

When do I get to use some of that privilege? I'd really like to cash some in for a fucking job right about now.

justanaverageguy

(186 posts)
22. I'm not saying that there might not be some privilege.....
Wed May 16, 2012, 04:54 PM
May 2012

I just don't think you examples make the point.

The car repair example doesn't support your theory. True as it might be it simply doesn't demonstrate white straight male privilege. I think a black man is more likely to be asked about the car repairs than a woman of any color. If a black man and white man go in together it's probably a toss up that would be determined by which one is more dominate in the conversation with the mechanic. No white privilege there.

I will admit I would be more likely to talk to the guy in the car repair example as well. It's just based on life experience not an assumption of anyone's intelligence. It has been my experience for the last nearly 50 years that most women in my life don't know crap about cars. Not because they are unable to understand how a car works....they just simply don't care. It's not important to them. The flip side of that is most of the guys in my life have taken at least some interest in the subject and have a more detailed understanding than most women generally speaking.

By the same token when I have a medical issue with myself or my kids I will 9 times out of 10 seek out the advice of a woman rather than a man. It's because in my life experience women have had for various reasons a much better knowledge on the subject than males in my life. Am I therefore demonstrating white straight female privilege??

As for the IT example....if I know that if I have called the IT department and woman has answered the phone accordingly I couldn't imagine that I would ask to be furthered transferred. Now if the woman (or man) just simply answered the phone "hello" I might assume that I have reached the wrong number and asked to be transferred not realizing I had actually reached the IT department. I have a couple of female friends that work in IT....I'm going to ask them. Does a black man in the IT department have the same issue? what about an Asian? I bet you the Asian guy is assumed to be smarter than the white guy regardless of sexual orientation. So even if you are factually correct it just simply does not support "straight white male" privilege. Maybe "male" privilege....but nothing in your examples demonstrate any privilege related to sexual orientation or race.

ProfessionalLeftist

(4,982 posts)
25. The bit about IT is definitely true
Wed May 16, 2012, 05:02 PM
May 2012

I've noticed that myself - for 30+ years. Women in IT are assumed to know nothing and either not spoken to or are spoken down to. Shameful.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
27. wonderful. i love your story. thank you for sharing and you are right on. this weekend
Wed May 16, 2012, 05:33 PM
May 2012

an old, out of touch friend stopped hubby and i. i noticed he kept looking at hubby, talking IT, economy and the foreign employees. i made a point to something he had said about bringing employees from overseas, but while making my observation i was also thinking about the resistant, insistent eye to eye contact with hubby. i chuckled.

i have literally had men stand in front of me. i ask a question and they look at hubby to answer.... what is that.

but you are right.

thanks for sharing your observations. that was interesting.

and welcome to du

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
31. Thank you for sharing your experience.
Thu May 17, 2012, 03:34 PM
May 2012

I am straight, white, and female-bodied.

I remember years ago, when I was in my early 30's, I had a terrible car accident and broke my leg very badly.

The recovery required quite a lot of follow up visits to the doctor and physical therapy and so forth.

I was married at the time and my husband used to go to the doctor with me.

The doctor would examine my leg, take new x-rays, whatever... and then turn to my husband and explain to him exactly what was going on with my leg and how my recovery was coming along. The doctor acted as if I wasn't even in the room. It was positively bizarre.

Also I worked in I.T. for many years... at one time I was the Director of the I.T. department and had all men working for me. In meetings with me and my staff the vendors would almost invariably talk to/with my male employees and not me. Once they caught on that I knew my stuff, some of them changed their attitudes, but it was always a struggle.

One treated me so badly -- with such obvious disdain and dismissiveness, and always wanting to talk to my boss (the vice president of the company instead of me) -- that it lost him a half million dollar contract. The vice president did not make the I.T. purchasing decisions. I did. When I told him "no deal" on his proposal I also told him why. (Basically, because I found him to be a condescending misogynistic jerk.)

Thanks again.

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