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packman

(16,296 posts)
Fri May 20, 2016, 01:38 PM May 2016

Grotesque criminalization of poverty in America

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"If you are arrested for a serious crime, you're supposed to be taken to jail and booked. Then there's some sort of hearing, and if the judge doesn't think you will skip town or commit more crimes, you are either released on your own recognizance, or you post bail, and you are free until a pre-trial hearing. After that, you either go to trial, or plead guilty and accept punishment.

But for a great many people, this is not how it works. As a new report from the Prison Policy Initiative demonstrates, over one-third of people who go through the booking process end up staying in jail simply because they can't raise enough cash to post bail. For millions of Americans in 2016, poverty is effectively a crime."

Report goes on to state the twisted "justice" system and it's titled bias against the poor, especially blacks :


"Jail is a big business, both for bail bondsman and for cash-strapped counties in the South (some of which are notorious for stopping out-of-state black people on any imaginable pretext so as to hold them up for bail money). Many court dockets, particularly in poor, populous locations, are completely swamped with cases without remotely enough resources to process everyone according to the rules of due process. One quick and easy shortcut is to load up the accused with as many charges as possible, demand a gigantic bail, and rely on fear and economic pressure to secure a guilty plea. (Some 97 percent of cases which are not dismissed are settled by plea bargaining.)"

A disguised tax system impacting the poor and denying convicted felons the right to vote therefore insuring white power structure.

http://theweek.com/articles/624339/grotesque-criminalization-poverty-america
41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Grotesque criminalization of poverty in America (Original Post) packman May 2016 OP
A difficult problem to be sure Egnever May 2016 #1
You were sensible, brave and wise at a young age. Good job. Thanks for sharing your story. appalachiablue May 2016 #5
Too kind by far Egnever May 2016 #8
I, too, am glad Delphinus May 2016 #18
Your instincts were right, you fought back and survived. The judge's harassment appalachiablue May 2016 #19
Imagine yourself at that young age less able to rely on family and friends and less JDPriestly May 2016 #37
"You can't just let people accused of crimes " The problem started before this. We take the jtuck004 May 2016 #40
Just the tip of the Ice Berg. Wellstone ruled May 2016 #2
How is this constitutional? ck4829 May 2016 #3
It happens in all sorts of ways. Igel May 2016 #33
There's nothing wrong with striking a bargain ck4829 May 2016 #34
Excellent reporting libodem May 2016 #4
proibition 2.0. stupid then , stupid now. pansypoo53219 May 2016 #6
I believe this is the report they were talking about on NPR the other day robbob May 2016 #7
Bernie is leading the discussion on justice reform. I am with him on that. JDPriestly May 2016 #39
Please everybody see "Where zentrum May 2016 #9
In addition to the military, I wonder what percentage of our US population appalachiablue May 2016 #10
Private Prison Lobbyists Are Raising Cash for Hillary Clinton AntiBank May 2016 #11
Land of the Corrupt and Home for the Greedy. Proud to be an American? SammyWinstonJack May 2016 #17
As a kid, I was told repeatedly to avoid cops/jail as we were too poor to afford justice REP May 2016 #12
No, it isn't news to us. zalinda May 2016 #14
Nixon - tan, rested and ready! REP May 2016 #15
Thank you for this. But I have one more question. Who gets jwirr May 2016 #13
Grotesque capitalistic industry now. Grotesque criminal justice plan. Grotesque Clinton silvershadow May 2016 #16
Huge +1! Enthusiast May 2016 #21
Thank you! nt silvershadow May 2016 #22
+ another one nt riderinthestorm May 2016 #28
Thank you. nt silvershadow May 2016 #30
Two things to avoid in your life : The Judical System and the Medical System The_Casual_Observer May 2016 #20
Well I'm trapped in the medical system. The other I'm good with. :/ nt silvershadow May 2016 #23
So you know what I'm talking about. The_Casual_Observer May 2016 #24
Absolutely. My medical bills are on the catastrophic scale. I am uninsurable. And I am silvershadow May 2016 #25
Oh this is so very sad to hear. The_Casual_Observer May 2016 #27
I will be no better than I am right now unless medical science or big pharma intervenes, but silvershadow May 2016 #29
DU is a pretty good distraction at least. The_Casual_Observer May 2016 #31
. silvershadow May 2016 #32
It is Obama's fault tonyt53 May 2016 #26
Prison is modern slavery. Just ask the corporations who profit from the slave labor. nt valerief May 2016 #35
There is a disdain for the poor. stillwaiting May 2016 #36
Hillary has pushed this system. Bernie opposes it. Arugula Latte May 2016 #38
IIRC the intent of the founders was for bail to be nearly automatic, and not onerous Babel_17 May 2016 #41
 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
1. A difficult problem to be sure
Fri May 20, 2016, 01:58 PM
May 2016

The idea of bail I believe, is to make the amount high enough to ensure you return for your court case. Not sure how you could do that effectively with someone with no financial ability to pay. You can't just let people accused of crimes go without some sort of system to ensure they return to face the charges.

When I was young I was arrested and put in jail for something I did not do. The bail was way higher than I could pay so I sat in Jail. When I finally got before a judge the prosecutor offered me a plea deal that would put me on probation and allow me to be released that day. It was very tempting to take that deal (jail was bad and I desperately wanted out) but I knew if I did that the record would follow me the rest of my life. I was fortunate I guess at the time that I did not have financial responsibilities that would have collapsed if I did not get out so I refused the deal. The judge reprimanded me for wasting the tax payers money and time when I plead not guilty and I remember distinctly wanting to tell him to go fuck himself. He set the next court date for a month later.

Interestingly the next day after pleading not guilty the charges were dropped as they had no case and I was released. The whole process however took a couple of weeks and by the time I got out I had lost my job at the time and my admittedly minor possessions had all been stolen or confiscated as I was living in a weekly rental and I hadn't paid the rent. It sucked at the time to be sure but now many years later I am so glad I didn't take that deal. Sitting in jail blew but living with that conviction for the rest of my life would have been far worse.

That was long winded and likely off point but as someone who had to deal with this in the past I am not sure how it could be fixed.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
8. Too kind by far
Fri May 20, 2016, 03:38 PM
May 2016

I was mostly an irresponsible idiot who had been thrown on the streets at a young age. I am really glad I made the decision I did that day. It could have easily gone the other way. I really wanted out of that jail.

I think the judge actually did me a huge favor by treating me with contempt when I stood before him. It put my hackles up and made me defiant of his ability to condemn me with no evidence whatsoever other than a person's statement who had a grudge. I think it was as much the judges treatment of me that day as anything else that made me refuse to take the plea.

I am sooo glad I did not take that deal as tempting as it was.

Delphinus

(11,808 posts)
18. I, too, am glad
Fri May 20, 2016, 04:18 PM
May 2016

you shared your story and did not take the deal. The "justice" system in this country has really shaken my faith in it way too many times.

appalachiablue

(41,055 posts)
19. Your instincts were right, you fought back and survived. The judge's harassment
Fri May 20, 2016, 04:28 PM
May 2016

absolutely did you a favor. That time on the streets probably gave you some added experience and insights too. Many folks don't have the innate ability to stand up when intimidated through no fault of their own. That's ok, they just need a few people looking out for them at times.
Once in college my sister stood up to a guy who came out of the bushes one night when she was walking to class. I wasn't there but heard he was twice her size and she scared him so much he took off. She talked down a cop one time too and other family stories but I'll spare you.

Some of us got it from our grandfather, and our father who was a born fighter and WWII officer. A man with a lot of sense, a great love of humor and high regard for education and achievement. But he had a heart and was tolerant of knuckleheads too like his baby brother. Tough on the boys though. Once our little brother stood up to him, and lived! Never mentioned it again.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
37. Imagine yourself at that young age less able to rely on family and friends and less
Sat May 21, 2016, 12:41 PM
May 2016

intelligent.

Imagine that you did do the crime. Imagine that you were with a group of people, or young and hungry, or cold or afraid to walk home in the bad neighborhood and there was a car with keys in it.

You were lucky in that you had the stamina and sense to refuse the plea bargain. But so many people don't. And a lot of young people are impulsive or not clear-thinking and get into trouble over petty acts due more to their lack of judgment than a truly criminal nature.

I'm not excusing car theft or shoplifting or burglaries. But these are, especially in naive young people, impulsive acts in some cases. We need a speedy trial system that is really speedy. And we need a lot more rehabilitation during probation. The aim of our justice system should be to save the lives and spirits of young people and ultimately to PREVENT CRIME, not to make crime the way of life of so many.

Let's try to reduce the numbers of incarcerated Americans. The Dutch have managed to do it. We can do. Education, and not reading and writing, is essential.

We need internet and TV ads that teach young people to stop and think before they do impulsive things that get them in trouble. Lots of ads of that kind. We also need more youth programs and more job training for young people.

We can do this. We just need the will.

Too many good Americans are languishing in our jails and prisons.

I am not condoning crime. We have to teach children to respect others. We don't do that very well.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
40. "You can't just let people accused of crimes " The problem started before this. We take the
Sat May 21, 2016, 01:38 PM
May 2016

support structures and relief away that were to medicate a few hundred years of continuing racism, and then say

"We just need to make them comply".

That is such self-righteous bullshit. What we need to do is provide opportunity like Democrats are supposed to do, not build big prisons at the behest of large donors so we can screw more families out of any kind of a life, or gut their food stamps, or let bank$ter/jihadists prey on the now 8 milllion families that have now been foreclosed on since they started their raid.

We are keeping the deficit down partly by not hiring at a government level. The government is one of the very few places any black person can apply for a job and be more or less certain their race is at least not going to cause their resume to be thrown in a trash can.

So perhaps we could open up some jobs so folks could make some money. Then, maybe instead of paying bail to "make sure they show", as is the concern above, maybe they could send their kids on to bigger and better things, build and economy like the white folks. Overcome the voting blockades many communities put in front of them, not have to worry about being arrested for being black.

We seem to be overly concerned for "they" -> "ensure they return to face the charges.", but not enough for those who persist in keeping such folks in poverty, and the violence they never account for.

I don't mean you personally, but if we put as much effort into working with our neighbors instead of screwing them over, we might be able to dispense with a bunch of this penal system.

It's not as difficult a problem as it seems to be if one takes the racism out of it. That's just the low-hanging fruit, as it were, but it would make a damn big impact.



 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
2. Just the tip of the Ice Berg.
Fri May 20, 2016, 02:06 PM
May 2016

Thousands of people are swept up in this trap each and every day. And the plea bargaining thing is way out of control. Appears we have a lazy Justice System in many areas of the country. And the Private Prison System is not helping.

ck4829

(34,977 posts)
3. How is this constitutional?
Fri May 20, 2016, 02:30 PM
May 2016

The state being able to wait a defendant out in hopes they cop to a lesser charge sounds like flagrant violations of the fifth and fourteenth amedments in several different ways. Not to mention the sixth amendment, which guarantees speedy trials.

Igel

(35,197 posts)
33. It happens in all sorts of ways.
Fri May 20, 2016, 09:00 PM
May 2016

The state has more resources than most defendants. So when you're taken to court, you can fight and maybe win or maybe lose, or you can strike a bargain.

A lot of individuals plead guilty to lesser charges. We don't like that except when we do. If it's somebody whose head we want on a platter, we're irate; if it gets somebody off with probation who we think are innocent, it's great.

Companies do the same. If they think they'll win but they can get off with a fine and no admission of guilt for a lot less money, only an idiot would defend the company's innocence at a substantial hit to the bottom line. In some cases they're guilty and pay less than they would, but in other cases they know that the court case would take years, result in horribly bad publicity, and the combined costs would easily exceed the fine. We can't know which is which, just like we can't know which individual defendants are guilty or browbeaten into financial submission.

A non-profit I worked for wanted to put up a building. It bought land, started drawing up plans, and then some bureaucrat saw that water stood on it for a long while each winter. This was Oregon, the Willamette Valley, and, dang, that's true of many places. Including the park behind where I lived. The non-profit's land (but not the park) was declared wetlands. Now, the place was a pasture for horses and had previously been farmed. Much of the year it was dry, and the winter had been especially wet. The non-profit could have fought and quite possibly won, but it would have cost more than the combined cost of the land and land would have cost. The government's assessment went unchallenged.

ck4829

(34,977 posts)
34. There's nothing wrong with striking a bargain
Fri May 20, 2016, 09:17 PM
May 2016

Look at things like the Kalief Browder case though, this seems very unconstitutional.

robbob

(3,514 posts)
7. I believe this is the report they were talking about on NPR the other day
Fri May 20, 2016, 03:38 PM
May 2016

"Fresh Air" with Terry Gross, I believe it was? One of the things they discussed was for-profit prisons CHARGING the people incarcerated there and awaiting trial a daily fee for their room and board! And so people emerge from these situations after months or even years, having been convicted of NO crime, thousands of dollars in dept, in which failure to pay can then become a reason to incarcerate them again.

It's a vicious circle. As the spokesperson for the Prison Policy Initiative pointed out, the principal is supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty", but that has been completely turned around by the current system, which throws people in jail for things as minor as a traffic infraction or a broken taillight, and leaves them no way to get out.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
39. Bernie is leading the discussion on justice reform. I am with him on that.
Sat May 21, 2016, 12:45 PM
May 2016

We need to PREVENT CRIME, not just punish those we believe have committed crimes and we can easily catch.

zentrum

(9,865 posts)
9. Please everybody see "Where
Fri May 20, 2016, 03:49 PM
May 2016

..to Invade Next", Michael Moore's latest movie.

He deals with this issue of prison labor for profit, a lot.

appalachiablue

(41,055 posts)
10. In addition to the military, I wonder what percentage of our US population
Fri May 20, 2016, 03:50 PM
May 2016

is employed in law enforcement, security, the court and criminal injustice systems and with contract businesses suppliers for jails and prisons. All to service our 2.2 million prison population that's incarcerated or under probation. It must be a huge number especially with the loss of American manufacturing jobs in the last 20-30 years, the 1994 Crime Law and the decline of employment opportunities now in retail with Macy's and Wal-Mart cut backs. In AZ or TX last year a community was in the news for practically throwing a riot to retain or bring back jobs being lost by the relocation of the local prison.

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
11. Private Prison Lobbyists Are Raising Cash for Hillary Clinton
Fri May 20, 2016, 03:54 PM
May 2016
https://theintercept.com/2015/07/23/private-prison-lobbyists-raising-cash-hillary-clinton/

As immigration and incarceration issues become central to the 2016 presidential campaign, lobbyists for two major prison companies are serving as top fundraisers for Hillary Clinton.

Corrections Corporation of America and the Geo Group could both see their fortunes turning if there are fewer people to lock up in the future.

Last week, Clinton and other candidates revealed a number of lobbyists who are serving as “bundlers” for their campaigns. Bundlers collect contributions on behalf of a campaign, and are often rewarded with special favors, such as access to the candidate.

Richard Sullivan, of the lobbying firm Capitol Counsel, is a bundler for the Clinton campaign, bringing in $44,859 in contributions in a few short months. Sullivan is also a registered lobbyist for the Geo Group, a company that operates a number of jails, including immigrant detention centers, for profit.

As we reported yesterday, fully five Clinton bundlers work for the lobbying and law firm Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld. Corrections Corporation of America, the largest private prison company in America, paid Akin Gump $240,000 in lobbying fees last year. The firm also serves as a law firm for the prison giant, representing the company in court.


snip

REP

(21,691 posts)
12. As a kid, I was told repeatedly to avoid cops/jail as we were too poor to afford justice
Fri May 20, 2016, 03:54 PM
May 2016

Mind, I was born in 1964 to parents born in the mid 1930s - and we are average, pasty-white people. I don't think this is news to people who are living on the borders of what's left of the middle class.

zalinda

(5,621 posts)
14. No, it isn't news to us.
Fri May 20, 2016, 04:02 PM
May 2016

Apparently the I got mine crowd thinks that it's just dandy that their candidate's husband started the whole damn thing. And their candidate takes money from the imprison the poor crowd.

Z

REP

(21,691 posts)
15. Nixon - tan, rested and ready!
Fri May 20, 2016, 04:12 PM
May 2016

Actually, fleecing the poor and ethnic/racial minorities in this country predates Nixon and anyone currently running for office; as I mentioned, my parents were born in '30s (and my mother's siblings in the '20s; she was the baby).

This is the remains of the workhouse, built in 1897, in my hometown where debtors where imprisoned.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
13. Thank you for this. But I have one more question. Who gets
Fri May 20, 2016, 04:00 PM
May 2016

paid while they are setting in jail waiting for an court trial? I suspect the taxpayers are paying someone for keeping them in jail. Hopefully you will see what I am saying. Are the prisons both state and private making a mint off of these poor prisoners?

 

silvershadow

(10,336 posts)
16. Grotesque capitalistic industry now. Grotesque criminal justice plan. Grotesque Clinton
Fri May 20, 2016, 04:16 PM
May 2016

hard line on such. Grotesque lobbying. Grotesque political fundraising.

The only candidate who has consistently been above that fray is Bernie.

 

The_Casual_Observer

(27,742 posts)
20. Two things to avoid in your life : The Judical System and the Medical System
Fri May 20, 2016, 04:39 PM
May 2016

Try and stay healthy and stay out of trouble.

 

silvershadow

(10,336 posts)
25. Absolutely. My medical bills are on the catastrophic scale. I am uninsurable. And I am
Fri May 20, 2016, 05:02 PM
May 2016

seeing so many doctors it would make an average medical patient's head spin. Every system in my body is affected, and my disease goes all the way to my brain stem.

 

silvershadow

(10,336 posts)
29. I will be no better than I am right now unless medical science or big pharma intervenes, but
Fri May 20, 2016, 05:11 PM
May 2016

I sure appreciate the thoughts and sentiment. I make the best of every day, and I am thankful for each one.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
36. There is a disdain for the poor.
Sat May 21, 2016, 11:57 AM
May 2016

It used to be relegated to the Republican Party.

New Democrats taking control of the Dem Party have given us another Party that welcomes those that blame the poor for policy decisions that continue to undermine and destroy the financial stability and security of more and more Americans with every passing year.

Sucks.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
38. Hillary has pushed this system. Bernie opposes it.
Sat May 21, 2016, 12:43 PM
May 2016

Yet another big difference between them. And Bernie is the racist one...yeah, right.

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
41. IIRC the intent of the founders was for bail to be nearly automatic, and not onerous
Sat May 21, 2016, 01:42 PM
May 2016

Sure, you can argue that back then jumping bail was a different story. You couldn't walk around locally if you jumped bail, and you'd basically have to start a new life elsewhere. But that's not the point, legally. The Constitution says there's a right to a speedy trial as well. That's not negotiable. Change the laws so you don't prosecute for victimless crimes, or hire new judges and court workers.

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