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What kind of weak-ass, pathetic, wimpy, cowardly, quivering mass of worthlessness needs an AR-15 (Original Post) Aristus Jun 2016 OP
Why always focus on AR15s? Matrosov Jun 2016 #1
Because it's a scary black gun NightWatcher Jun 2016 #5
Sorry, you could help people understand the issue Dem2 Jun 2016 #15
You're saying that there's no emotional response simply because of the gun's scary looks? NightWatcher Jun 2016 #30
I dont even want to get into this but you are correct here. bunnies Jun 2016 #51
"more fatal" TwilightZone Jun 2016 #31
Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #43
I don't think that's true. Captain Stern Jun 2016 #45
Get rid of themf all. No one needs such a gun. nt Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #33
I agree. sarae Jun 2016 #53
Because it's the one that has been used... tallahasseedem Jun 2016 #55
I have never understood why some people think The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2016 #2
I have a cousin-in-law who really does think he needs to carry a gun at all times renate Jun 2016 #3
Not that he's going to change his mind, but... BeyondGeography Jun 2016 #4
I have the opposite situation going on. Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #7
I qualified as an expert marksman on the M16A2 when I was in the Army. Aristus Jun 2016 #17
I think your story is an extremely important and persuasive one renate Jun 2016 #24
I too was kairos12 Jun 2016 #50
In "Bowling for Columbine," Auggie Jun 2016 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author jmg257 Jun 2016 #9
And what are the odds of that happening? The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2016 #13
Understood - as I said, you asked why - consider fear a BIG motivator. jmg257 Jun 2016 #19
I would guess that would be far more likely to happen than a mass shooting. N/T beevul Jun 2016 #20
Typical. linuxman Jun 2016 #8
The guy in Orlando wasn't using a stick and a bent paperclip. Aristus Jun 2016 #21
Guns aren't toys. Anyone too immature to realize that linuxman Jun 2016 #27
Shotguns are much more macho! nt jmg257 Jun 2016 #10
don't know about macho DustyJoe Jun 2016 #57
Indeed - but pump is so old-school...Benelli and Beretta make some fine SAs. nt jmg257 Jun 2016 #58
The AR makes a fine HD firearm. ileus Jun 2016 #11
A stout lock on the door. Aristus Jun 2016 #23
Ah yes, the fallacy of the universally applicable experience... Marengo Jun 2016 #47
Which also applies to firearms. Aristus Jun 2016 #48
Pleased to see you admit to your fallacy, the honesty is refreshing. Marengo Jun 2016 #49
A dog jberryhill Jun 2016 #29
I do have a 60lb and growing GSD ileus Jun 2016 #56
Guns come in high definition these days? nt Tommy_Carcetti Jun 2016 #41
I live in a rough city with a very high murder rate. hunter Jun 2016 #46
This message was self-deleted by its author jmg257 Jun 2016 #12
To what end, this contempt? Brickbat Jun 2016 #14
And always toward the people that didn't do it. N/T beevul Jun 2016 #22
The contempt is its own end. Aristus Jun 2016 #25
Why should I sarisataka Jun 2016 #16
If I ever did have to shoot someone in my home to protect myself or family... aikoaiko Jun 2016 #18
Until that .223 round goes through the sheet rock and kills someone you care about. gordianot Jun 2016 #35
That is a risk with any firearm if you miss. OO or 9mm goes right thru sheetrock too. aikoaiko Jun 2016 #37
Well many here Duckhunter935 Jun 2016 #40
I agree! Heeeeers Johnny Jun 2016 #26
Urrah, kamerad! Aristus Jun 2016 #28
This post reminds me... Kang Colby Jun 2016 #32
mass murderers love them - n/t RussBLib Jun 2016 #34
You said it....Rambo wannabe imbeciles. tabasco Jun 2016 #36
I sometimes think a pistol-caliber carbine like the Beretta Storm would make an ideal home defense jmg257 Jun 2016 #38
A Donald Rump type MFM008 Jun 2016 #39
Here's what scares me (and this isn't really about home defense): The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2016 #42
HOW MANY DEAD IS ENOUGH??? alarimer Jun 2016 #44
I have several but not for self defense. I live in a safe town. Nt hack89 Jun 2016 #52
In agree 100% and I have hunted and owned guns all my life. I have no desire own doc03 Jun 2016 #54
 

Matrosov

(1,098 posts)
1. Why always focus on AR15s?
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:16 PM
Jun 2016

The problem isn't a specific type of semi-automatic rifle with detachable magazine, it's semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines in general.



This can do the exact same thing as an AR15 and was one of the weapons Breivik used to kill 77 people in Norway in 2011.

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
5. Because it's a scary black gun
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:35 PM
Jun 2016

A Mini Thirty, like you pictured, fires a 7.62 which in my opinion is more fatal but it doesn't look as scary as a big black AR.

This is DU where we get hung up on the scary looking gun every time one is used. Give it a few days.

Dem2

(8,166 posts)
15. Sorry, you could help people understand the issue
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:56 PM
Jun 2016

But you choose to mock them. I'm a gun owner offering solutions and pushing back against the seeming uncaring Gun Nutz.

/Ignore just another insensitive gun nut

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
30. You're saying that there's no emotional response simply because of the gun's scary looks?
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:08 PM
Jun 2016

An all black gun strikes more fear in people who don't know any difference than a gun with a stained wooden stock.

And in the days immediately after a shooting, most of the responses are emotional in nature.

I've tried to explain the issue, but it doesn't help. In the days following a shooting this place turns into those who advocate banning this gun (which will never happen) and those who say that the emotions are misplaced and that a gun ban will never happen. Those who don't react to the scary black gun are labeled as (as you called me) a gun nut or a gun humper.

Trying to explain the differences in weapons here after a shooting is an exercise in futility. That's what I was responding to. You've proved my point.

 

bunnies

(15,859 posts)
51. I dont even want to get into this but you are correct here.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 03:08 PM
Jun 2016

I had a mini 14 20 years ago when I lived on a farm in VT. Mine came w/ 2 different stocks.





Same damn gun though. Literally.

TwilightZone

(25,342 posts)
31. "more fatal"
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:16 PM
Jun 2016

In light of recent events, it would seem that the weapon of choice was plenty fatal.

If the discussion becomes about how fatal one weapon is versus another, we should probably reconsider the focus of the conversation.

Response to NightWatcher (Reply #5)

Captain Stern

(2,197 posts)
45. I don't think that's true.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 02:05 PM
Jun 2016

My understanding is that that particular gun only fires one bullet for each pull of the trigger.

700 rounds/60 seconds = 11.7 rounds per second. Is it possible for someone to pull a trigger almost 12 times in a second?

sarae

(3,284 posts)
53. I agree.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 03:15 PM
Jun 2016

If you're arguing your right to have a gun after a tragedy like this, you are an ASSHOLE.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,280 posts)
2. I have never understood why some people think
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:18 PM
Jun 2016

they need such a thing for home defense. If you are concerned about defending against a home invasion and really believe you have to have a weapon, an ordinary shotgun will be just fine. Even more baffling is why some people think they need to be armed to the teeth to go out in public. Who needs to carry a gun to go to the grocery store? Are they so afraid of the world in general that they think they need to carry a gun at all times? Are they hoping there will be some kind of "incident" so they can rush in and be the big hero? Do they carry a gun just so people will be intimidated and/or awed by their powerful manly weapon? I think it's all of the above and I don't get it at all.

renate

(13,776 posts)
3. I have a cousin-in-law who really does think he needs to carry a gun at all times
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:25 PM
Jun 2016

It's weird because he is unbelievably muscular and intimidating on his own, but he really does think he needs to carry a gun because there are people out there who would want to hurt him. Or something. It's probably the hero thing with him, now that you mention it. On the plus side, he's a military guy so he'd be a good shot, and I'm sure he knows enough about gun safety to always keep his gun away from his little daughter. But not everybody is as well trained, to say the least.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
7. I have the opposite situation going on.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:44 PM
Jun 2016

I'm a scotch under 5'3", and I weigh about 112lbs these days. Pretty "victim-y" looking, especially if the person contemplating doing something bad has some reason to target females. That, in a nutshell, is why I carry.

That said, I'm also an advocate for several additional gun control measures, and I don't see these regulations as an infringement upon my right to make the above decision. As with every other right, consideration has to be given to how that right is to be exercised in a big, crowded, complex society. Rules establishing those parameters have to be understood as a given, and those rules optimized for the greater good. You know...like societies do. There are more gun owners who feel like I do than some folk may realize.

Aristus

(66,095 posts)
17. I qualified as an expert marksman on the M16A2 when I was in the Army.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:00 PM
Jun 2016

I've been out for almost 25 years now, and still have never felt the need to own a comparable weapon like the AR-15; or indeed any firearm at all. As well-trained as I was in firearm use in the appropriate setting, I understand that such firepower is unnecessary in civilian life.

Back in 2001, the bank where I was working was robbed at gunpoint. The perp was a pro; he flashed a gun, put it away, and demanded the money. After he was gone, a number of people asked me if I had wished for a gun during the robbery (what today is referred to as the good-guy with a gun scenario). I told them: "No. If I had pulled a gun, he would have started shooting. The robbery ended with zero deaths. With gun use, it might have ended with four."

Tell your cousin to unclench a little.

renate

(13,776 posts)
24. I think your story is an extremely important and persuasive one
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:04 PM
Jun 2016

It seems so obvious now that you've shared your experience, but I'd never thought about how a good guy flashing a gun could actually make a situation worse--I'd always merely thought it wouldn't help.

I wish all gun owners were as smart as you.

kairos12

(12,817 posts)
50. I too was
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 03:05 PM
Jun 2016

trained as an Army Infantryman. I scored well with the M16. I always thought it was a good idea to lock the weapon in the Arms Room after training. To have an M16 in my home has always struck me as laughable.

Auggie

(31,061 posts)
6. In "Bowling for Columbine,"
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:39 PM
Jun 2016

Michael Moore suggested it was mainstream news media's focus on violence. Support by certain guns groups and guns rights advocates most certainly promulgated the idea.

Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #2)

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,280 posts)
13. And what are the odds of that happening?
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:54 PM
Jun 2016

I've been going to grocery stores at least once a week for decades, occasionally in somewhat dodgy neighborhoods, and have never seen anything even slightly disruptive, let alone warranting the use of a gun to defend against it. Sometimes violence happens, but unless you are routinely in circumstances where it's statistically likely, carrying a gun at all times is evidence that you are basically a chickenshit who's irrationally afraid of the world. I know a real estate agent who has a carry permit because sometimes he is alone in places where he could be robbed. I get that. I don't get free-floating fear of the entire universe.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
19. Understood - as I said, you asked why - consider fear a BIG motivator.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:00 PM
Jun 2016

Fear can be a good thing though, keeps us from doing all kinds of stupid shit, and causes us to pass all kinds of good legislation.

 

linuxman

(2,337 posts)
8. Typical.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:46 PM
Jun 2016

Petty personal insults and ad hominems are about all I expect from gun controllers these days. You people wonder why nobody takes yoy serously and you're accused of histrionics.

My wife and I have one for that purpose. Why? Well, a firearm is the most effective weapon for home defense. Why wouldn't we choose one that is lightweight, accurate, reliable, and familiar?

When you go fishing do you use a stick, yarn, and a bent paperclip? If not, why would I willingly choose a firearm less effective than an ar15 when it fits the bill better than any other firearm for my purposes? The fact that I already use it for target shooting just makes it an added plus.

Aristus

(66,095 posts)
21. The guy in Orlando wasn't using a stick and a bent paperclip.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:02 PM
Jun 2016

Which you know perfectly well. If you're going to make an arguement in favor of your light-weight bang-bang toy, try to make a coherent one...

 

linuxman

(2,337 posts)
27. Guns aren't toys. Anyone too immature to realize that
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:05 PM
Jun 2016

Probably shouldn't be dictating my choices to me.


I explained why I have/use one. Your inability to comprehend simple English doesn't make something incoherent.

Best just stick to insults.

DustyJoe

(849 posts)
57. don't know about macho
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 03:21 PM
Jun 2016

But a 12 gauge pump with a short security barrel is probably the best and most popular choice for home defense. For the ladies with a smaller frame a 20 gauge does fine. Many a prospective burglar/home invader has been thwarted by simply the sound of a pump shotgun action racking a shell into the chamber without ever firing a shot. The sound is unmistakable and even the lowest iq moron knows what comes next if they keep coming.

Aristus

(66,095 posts)
23. A stout lock on the door.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:03 PM
Jun 2016

It's worked perfectly without a fatality for thirteen years. (That's how long I've lived in my current house.) and it worked for six out of the six years I lived in my previous home.

 

Marengo

(3,477 posts)
47. Ah yes, the fallacy of the universally applicable experience...
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 02:20 PM
Jun 2016

Because its worked for you, it has and always will work for everyone else.

ileus

(15,396 posts)
56. I do have a 60lb and growing GSD
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 03:20 PM
Jun 2016

He replaced an 70lb GSD that died back in Feb.

But first and foremost it's my job to protect my family.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
46. I live in a rough city with a very high murder rate.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 02:18 PM
Jun 2016

We live next to a foot path to the local high school. When I paint over gang graffiti on our back wall it soon reappears, usually within a day or two. We used to live in a rougher part of town. The house we were renting had roughly patched-over bullet holes in it from a drive-by shooting. Whenever I'd here gunshots I'd take our kids to the back room and we'd play sitting on the floor. But usually shooting is over as soon as it starts.

I once bumped into a guy holding a gun on my back porch. He was hiding from the police who were chasing him. It was night, my wife and kids were asleep, I was taking out the kitchen trash. He ran away and a few seconds later the police were pounding on my front door demanding to run through my house. I declined. We don't allow guns in our home.

Guns are useless for self defense. Bad guys shoot first. Around here, guns are one of the things people break into houses for. Nobody gives a fuck about your x-box or other fancy electronics. Gangsters buy those at Best Buy like everyone else. A gun, however, is valuable to them.

Guns are great for shooting your daughter's secret boyfriend, your toddlers shooting themselves or others, shooting your spouse in an argument, or yourself on a day you're feeling down...

We had a neighbor who shot her boyfriend in the leg with his own gun. (I suspect she was aiming for his crotch). I walked out my front door, intending to run some errands, but a big firetruck and a bunch of police cars were blocking the street. The police and firemen were hiding behind the firetruck waiting for the woman to surrender. The guy had run out of the house naked when he got shot, and the firemen were dealing with that.

Those are my cheerful gun stories. I don't talk about the bad stuff.

Piss on guns and gun fetishists.


Response to Aristus (Original post)

Aristus

(66,095 posts)
25. The contempt is its own end.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:05 PM
Jun 2016

That's how I feel about Mr. Shooty and Mrs. Bang-Bang. Anyone who fits the description in the OP can ease his butt-hurt by cradling his AR-15...

sarisataka

(18,220 posts)
16. Why should I
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:58 PM
Jun 2016

Give any weight whatsoever to the words of someone who talks like a poorly scripted fifth grade bully in a sitcom?

My first line of home defense is a yappy Chihuahua and a bulldog. My rifles are bolt-action so I would never even consider using one in the house. Too slow and it would tear right through the walls.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
18. If I ever did have to shoot someone in my home to protect myself or family...
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:00 PM
Jun 2016

...having an AR15 in my hands would be my first choice due to accuracy of shot placement, relatively high terminal ballistics, ergonomic features compared to mosr shotguns and pistols, and relatively compact size compared to shotguns. A 30-round magazine wouldn't be the important attribute.

gordianot

(15,226 posts)
35. Until that .223 round goes through the sheet rock and kills someone you care about.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:22 PM
Jun 2016

I keep my fire arms locked up and unloaded they would do little for home defense but my little aluminum T-ball bat with a kuboton is just the ticket.

aikoaiko

(34,127 posts)
37. That is a risk with any firearm if you miss. OO or 9mm goes right thru sheetrock too.
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:26 PM
Jun 2016

True, those other rounds lose energy quicker, but someone on the other side of the wall could still get hit.

And that is why shot placement is very important in self-defense applications.

 

Kang Colby

(1,941 posts)
32. This post reminds me...
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:18 PM
Jun 2016

I need another AR.

One of the least significant but still noteworthy reasons I value AR rifles is because of how mad they make gun control advocates. Never mind the fact there isn't much difference between an AR and any other semi-automatic rifle, but the gun control butt hurt factor makes them worth owning a little more.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
38. I sometimes think a pistol-caliber carbine like the Beretta Storm would make an ideal home defense
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:26 PM
Jun 2016

weapon, but they often get lumped in as AWs too.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,280 posts)
42. Here's what scares me (and this isn't really about home defense):
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 01:54 PM
Jun 2016

Say you go to a public place where there are a lot of people, like a movie theatre or a night club. And as you're just enjoying yourself some asshole with an axe to grind bursts in and starts shooting. So everybody starts running away and there's total chaos. Fortunately, however, a Good Guy With A Gun is also present, and he starts firing back. Of, course, there's know way of knowing whether said GGWAG is an off-duty police officer or a trained military person, or maybe he's a wannabe who has had no training (in most places you don't need any training to buy a gun or carry it) and just likes the idea of carrying his gun everywhere so people will know what a tough guy he is. Maybe he imagines himself on the evening news, acclaimed as a hero - and maybe the girl he's been stalking will finally agree to go out with him.

So while the GGWAG is shooting at the bad guy, maybe accurately and maybe not, and people are running around screaming and nobody really knows what's going on, another GGWAG decides to join the fray (entirely possible in a large crowd) and more shots are fired. Then the police arrive. In the chaos they can't tell who the bad guy is. Are the GGWAGs accomplices of the shooter? How can they tell? How many people have the GGWAGs accidentally shot? Do the cops end up shooting all three of them? Probably...

I don't want to be in a situation where armed amateurs are trying to "help."

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
44. HOW MANY DEAD IS ENOUGH???
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 02:03 PM
Jun 2016

No one is willing to answer that. Hell, they've made it so the government isn't allowed to keep track. How much carnage is enough? Thousands die and thousands more are injured every single year. 100K, 500K, 1 million? How many will they tolerate? I guess they don't care until or unless it happens to them.

They can all just fuck off. I'm done.

doc03

(35,148 posts)
54. In agree 100% and I have hunted and owned guns all my life. I have no desire own
Mon Jun 13, 2016, 03:17 PM
Jun 2016

an AR-15 I have no need for them I don't plan on killing people. Do these people think 20 people are going to conspire together to
rob them or what? How f===g paranoid can you get.

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