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BootinUp

(46,928 posts)
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 11:30 AM Jun 2016

Malcom Nance ripping Islamophobia on Joy Reid (video link added)

He has the creds... Pointing out how people don't even have to be Muslim to switch allegiance to ISIS and carry out a terror attack. They are mentally ill. Pointed out cases where this has happened in Canada and the ME. Closing line you are empowering ISIS every time you open your mouth with Islamophobia.

Adding a link to the video segment:
http://www.msnbc.com/am-joy/watch/muslims-under-scrutiny-after-orlando-shooting-708557891867

15 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Marr

(20,317 posts)
1. Actually, you are empowering religious extremists every time you
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 11:47 AM
Jun 2016

pretend that Islamic extremism isn't a real problem, or that extremist views aren't actually mainstream thinking in Islam.

Would you really argue that this man didn't choose this target because of his religious devotion? Would you so flatly insult the gay community to defend some religious loons? Why?

BootinUp

(46,928 posts)
2. The argument and fact you are missing completely
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 12:05 PM
Jun 2016

is that by suggesting in any way that the extremists represent Islam, you give them a bigger stage to claim power and righteousness in the Islam world.

There was an interview you should watch from Rachel Maddow, see below. She interviewed a gay UK Muslim who explained why he almost turned to terrorism. But whether a muslim person is gay or not or whether a person who is from another faith is enticed by radicalism, the enticing factor is that they can be purified by becoming radical and embracing the radicalists agenda. The radicalists should be called the cultists they are. They should not be given any stature as representing the Islam faith.

Highly recommended: http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/self-hatred-seen-in-some-anti-gay-hate-crimes-708008003585

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
6. You're making my point.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 05:37 PM
Jun 2016

You're saying that simply speaking about this frankly; that simply acknowledging the admitted motivations of the attackers themselves, will push more Muslims over the line, and invite yet more attacks. You presume that simple, honest conversation here is provocation, and will set off more terrorist attacks-- so we must all watch our words.

That is the position of someone living in terror of religious fanatics.

The fact is that this man's actions are easily justifiable under Islam, in the Quran and the Hadith. He was operating on solid religious footing when he walked into that club and started mowing men down. You want to reduce the number of people turning to radical Islam? Stop giving them cover by insisting that mainstream Islam is some kind of liberal philosophy of peace. Stop dismissing people calls out such oppressive forces as bigots.

BootinUp

(46,928 posts)
9. There are many Islamic sects. I have seen no reports that this guy
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 06:44 PM
Jun 2016

in Orlando was a follower of the ultra conservative Salafi movement, or that he had any formal religious training that justified what he did.

And no I am not making your point. We are talking about people that are screwed up already, targets for recruitment and then being shown anti-Islamic rhetoric from US political figures. These screwed up people might live in current or previous war zones, or they might be like the Orlando guy or the gay UK man.

BootinUp

(46,928 posts)
4. In opposition to your claim that it is mainstream
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 01:31 PM
Jun 2016

I present the following article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_jihadism

Here is a useful section:

The terms "Salafist jihadist" and "Jihadist-Salafism" were coined by scholar Gilles Kepel in 2002[3][4][5][6] to describe "a hybrid Islamist ideology" developed by international Islamist volunteers in the Afghan anti-Soviet jihad who had become isolated from their national and social class origins.[3] The concept is considered by some (Martin Kramer) to be an academic term that "will inevitably be" simplified to "jihadism" or the "jihadist movement" in popular usage.[7]

and:
Gilles Kepel writes that the Salafis whom he encountered in Europe in the 1980s were "totally apolitical".[3][5] But by the mid-1990s he met some who felt jihad in the form of "violence and terrorism" was "justified to realize their political objectives". The combination of Salafi alienation from all things non-Muslim—including "mainstream European society"—and violent jihad created a "volatile mixture".[5] "When you're in the state of such alienation you become easy prey to the jihadi guys who will feed you more savory propaganda than the old propaganda of the Salafists who tell you to pray, fast and who are not taking action".[5]

According to Kepel, Salafist jihadism combined "respect for the sacred texts in their most literal form, ... with an absolute commitment to jihad, whose number-one target had to be America, perceived as the greatest enemy of the faith."[14]

------------
In summary, the jihadists are a reaction to world events. When the US/Westerners treat muslims with disrespect, or worse by invading them and fighting them on their territory, we only give more fuel to the fire.

Jihadists represent approximately 0.5% of the worlds muslims or less than 10 million.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
7. Violent jihadists are a small minority, yes-- but support of radical ideas is not.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 05:51 PM
Jun 2016

Fifty-two percent of the British Muslim community thinks homosexuality should be illegal. Twenty-seven percent said they sympathized with the men who murdered the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists. These aren't isolated examples, either-- they're just all I remember off the top of my head.

These represent enormous gulfs in social values. Western society simply does not align with such positions (thankfully), and that is where the violence comes from. That's what many of these attackers have said themselves. You cite foreign policy and 'disrespect' from Westerners, even when they don't. Why makes you think you understand their motivations and they do not?

BootinUp

(46,928 posts)
8. The number 0.5% includes those that believe jihadists activities are justified!
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 06:25 PM
Jun 2016

And per the wiki article, the majority of Wahhabis-Salafis do not, and All Wahhabis or Salafis represent the smallest muslim group estimated at 50 million worldwide.

> Fifty-two percent of the British Muslim community thinks homosexuality should be illegal.

This does not strike me as a compelling argument for your view. I am sure fundamental Christians would be in near agreement. It was not that long ago that America had very very anti-homosexual views.

> Twenty-seven percent said they sympathized with the men who murdered the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.

More interesting in light of the seeming contradiction to information I have been reading. Personally, I feel that the issue is so politicized even in the Muslim world, that it is hard to know who is telling the truth. What I do know is that there are many grievances I could imagine people have, due to all the wars in the last couple of decades in the Middle East, and also the Palestinian-Israel situation.

BootinUp

(46,928 posts)
5. THis is also interesting
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 01:42 PM
Jun 2016
http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/09/12/the-salafi-moment/

In short, no one should count on the Salafis to go away any time soon. So how should the outside world deal with them — especially if they’re going to go around storming foreign embassies?

I think the answer is two-pronged. First, don’t generalize. Not all Salafis should be treated as beyond the pale. Salafis who are willing to stand by the rules of democracy and acknowledge the rights of religious and cultural minorities should be encouraged to participate in the system. With time, voters in the new democracies of the region will discriminate between the demagogues and the people who can actually deliver a better society.

Second, don’t allow radicals to dictate the rules for everyone else. This is why the outcome of the current political conflicts in Tunisia and Libya are extremely important for the region as a whole. In both countries, voters have now had the opportunity to declare their political preferences in free elections, and they have delivered pretty clear messages. Libyans voted overwhelmingly for secular politicians, while Tunisians chose a mix of moderate Islamists and secularists. But the Salafis in both places don’t seem content to leave it at that, and are trying to foment instability by instigating a culture war.

What’s encouraging is that we’re beginning to see some pushback from ordinary Libyans and Tunisians who don’t want to submit to the logic of radicalization — not to mention scholars at the Arab world’s most prestigious university, also in Cairo. Don’t be fooled by the rabble-rousers. The story in the Middle East is still more interesting than the stereotypes.

BootinUp

(46,928 posts)
10. Let me recommend a video I posted
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 08:17 PM
Jun 2016

about who is joining ISIS and why. Ideology accounts for a minor number of recruitees. The video os over an hour with an expert panel. So grab something to drink before hand.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017386950



mwrguy

(3,245 posts)
3. ISIS is not Islamic
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 01:27 PM
Jun 2016

“ISIL is not Islamic. No religion condones the killing of innocents, and the vast majority of ISIL's victims have been Muslim,” - Obama

romanic

(2,841 posts)
12. Critizing certain aspects of the Islamic faith or Islamic fundamentalism
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 11:03 PM
Jun 2016

does not make one "Islamophobic".

romanic

(2,841 posts)
14. So were just supposed to stay silent when people do harm in the name of the Islamic faith?
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 11:14 PM
Jun 2016

I don't think so.

BootinUp

(46,928 posts)
15. Its a complex issue. I recommend a video on the subject. Link above or
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 11:37 PM
Jun 2016

just go to Video&Multimedia and look for the video I posted on Recruiting jihadist the Allure of ISIS. Expert panel, detailing interviews of ISIS members, defectors, much more.

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