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LBM20

(1,580 posts)
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 07:09 AM Dec 2017

The rush to judgement on Franken has BACKFIRED causing more problems in the party. DUMB CALL!

What a DUMB call Gillibrand and others made with their DUMB rush to judgement and lynch mobbing of Franken! Here is the great lesson: TAKE EACH SITUATION SEPARATELY AND STOP RUSHING TO JUDGEMENT!! Because here is what she and they have done:

1) Abandoned the great democratic principle of due process.

2) Allowed shady and WEAK allegations to pass for strong and credible allegations.

3) Allowed the EVIL of FALSE EQUIVALENCY to win the day. (Franken is NOT Trump and sure as hell is NOT Moore.)

4) Disregarded the STRONG EVIDENCE of some 20 women who worked with Franken for years and said he was NOT a sexual harasser and allowed that to get trumped (pun intended) by a some very weak allegations by confirmed right wingers.

5) Diminished REAL and CREDIBLE sexual harassment allegations.

6) Allowed a noble goal to degenerate into mob mentality.

7) Set up ANYONE who has ever done anything with a hint of off-coloredness many years ago to be labeled a sexual harasser who must be fired. Who the hell has ever led a perfect life? Who can pass this test?

8) Has now made it MANDATORY that they stand in front the cameras VERY SOON and strongly call for the resignation of Donald Trump, Roy Moore if he is elected, Clarence Thomas, and ANYONE on that side who now or in the past has been accused of sexual harassment or impropriety. And if they don't, then they become mega-hypocrites and weaklings. So we shall see on this one.

Bad call! What they could have done instead was stand in front of the cameras, said they don't tolerate sexual abuse or harassment, and said they would have a full ethics committee investigation which Franken has agreed to and if he is found in serious violation there would be consequences. Also say everyone gets due process and every situation is different. That is what they could have done. Instead, they went the lynchmob route and pissed off much their base in a big way causing needless gender divisions and other divisions in the party when we otherwise all agree that sexual abuse and harassment is very wrong and needs to be confronted. Fine. But then again, each situation is to be taken fairly and separately and not allowed to be swept down the rabbit hole of media frenzy and mob mentality. STUPID!

142 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The rush to judgement on Franken has BACKFIRED causing more problems in the party. DUMB CALL! (Original Post) LBM20 Dec 2017 OP
actually i think there has been more unity among most democrats on how fucked up it was JI7 Dec 2017 #1
Unity there, but there are some who have also dug in on the other side. I see it on social media. LBM20 Dec 2017 #2
A minority compared to the numbers of people upset by what was done to Franken. OnDoutside Dec 2017 #3
Yes, I think most of us are more concerned with due process and actual justice PatrickforO Dec 2017 #102
+1 It's so close to the edge. OnDoutside Dec 2017 #106
Agreed.... FarPoint Dec 2017 #4
Most likely yes bench scientist Dec 2017 #26
That is true...not the kind of unity I wanted but... Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #8
Evidence? brooklynite Dec 2017 #71
Anecdotal evidence JonAndKatePlusABird Dec 2017 #95
Sadly it was a unified "fuck this" and "I'm outta here" for many nt Kimchijeon Dec 2017 #91
They did the same with ACORN. The Wielding Truth Dec 2017 #5
They did. They cant fight rainy Dec 2017 #6
Yes. spicysista Dec 2017 #7
How many teaching moments do we need ornotna Dec 2017 #19
I understand the feeling.... spicysista Dec 2017 #24
If one side lies 90% of the time The Wizard Dec 2017 #45
Any polls done yet? janterry Dec 2017 #9
The Moore race isn't looking good FBaggins Dec 2017 #11
Franken's approval rating dropped from over 50% to mid 30s mythology Dec 2017 #61
Oh, well janterry Dec 2017 #62
i went thru the polls and found differently questionseverything Dec 2017 #113
I saw that MN poll too Lokilooney Dec 2017 #125
ethics committee work should be done in public from now on too questionseverything Dec 2017 #126
I think it is a wedge issue Jarqui Dec 2017 #10
Help Me Here People.... global1 Dec 2017 #20
There were eight and Google is your friend. Demit Dec 2017 #30
Let Google be your friend SHRED Dec 2017 #31
The second one riverwalker Dec 2017 #55
The others riverwalker Dec 2017 #57
But the one that was the final straw riverwalker Dec 2017 #58
Yes PatSeg Dec 2017 #60
Sadly, they must know that's what most Americans are paying attention to mchill Dec 2017 #77
True PatSeg Dec 2017 #83
THat's what my sister thought, and she is a progressive who is pretty tuned in. I gave Amaryllis Dec 2017 #98
And you can understand why this happens PatSeg Dec 2017 #116
Exactly. By comparison, Bush years were a drizzle and this is a tsunami. Amaryllis Dec 2017 #120
Ah, very apt analogy PatSeg Dec 2017 #128
We thought Bush was a lot to keep up with... Amaryllis Dec 2017 #139
And he was PatSeg Dec 2017 #140
That's LITERALLY what the Commission on Outrage used as a calculus. OilemFirchen Dec 2017 #92
Like a hand around one's waist PatSeg Dec 2017 #94
Very similar to Hillary's emails. All they had to do was say "more emails!" and the Amaryllis Dec 2017 #99
When I watched those women Senators True Blue American Dec 2017 #12
Republicans have two rules. SergeStorms Dec 2017 #135
All of this is true IF he didn't do what he was accused of FBaggins Dec 2017 #13
What would he be "actually guilty" of? n/t rzemanfl Dec 2017 #15
Being a comedian greymattermom Dec 2017 #17
Of being inappropriate and downright boorish. Chemisse Dec 2017 #33
So boorish he claimed an entire decade for himself. rzemanfl Dec 2017 #38
I know! I probably should've included that smilie as well. n/t Chemisse Dec 2017 #39
Lol. Nt BootinUp Dec 2017 #67
All of this is true REGARDLESS of Franken's guilt Martin Eden Dec 2017 #16
2,4, and 5 clearly aren't FBaggins Dec 2017 #44
He may be right about that. The righties would continue to create "set up" stories, which Amaryllis Dec 2017 #100
There was a time.... SergeStorms Dec 2017 #136
+100000000 Amaryllis Dec 2017 #138
If is the biggest word in the English language. Demit Dec 2017 #32
Dumb, maybe. But the Republicans are TRAITORS. McCamy Taylor Dec 2017 #14
Well said greeny2323 Dec 2017 #18
Few will forget this loss - No Franken, no Obamacare... No Franken, No Mueller investigation... dalton99a Dec 2017 #51
What about abuse of power Deb Dec 2017 #21
Franken should switch partie spike91nz Dec 2017 #22
really?????? would respond more clearly but that would earn an alert for attacking dembotoz Dec 2017 #59
That doesn't seem plausible. DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2017 #84
Who said this? Renew Deal Dec 2017 #23
EXACTLY !! He should have said kacekwl Dec 2017 #28
No he shouldn't have. His response was classy. Chemisse Dec 2017 #35
I thought the sarcasm was obvious. kacekwl Dec 2017 #46
Always best to use the DU smiley as posted below... VOX Dec 2017 #54
I wasn't offended (although I guess you meant that sarcastically as well). n/t Chemisse Dec 2017 #66
Winning isn't everything in politics . . . it's the ONLY thing. MrModerate Dec 2017 #52
Thinking that "winning isn't the most important thing" is why Dems are always losing. nt Binkie The Clown Dec 2017 #132
Indignant responses to your language in 5,4,3....n/t. rzemanfl Dec 2017 #41
Headline here raises the zentrum Dec 2017 #25
Good points SHRED Dec 2017 #34
Republicans repeal Social Security... BaileyBill Dec 2017 #27
One-size-fits-all justice - all crimes are equal - death to jaywalkers! dalton99a Dec 2017 #37
You left out "who are democrats." n/t rzemanfl Dec 2017 #42
+1 dalton99a Dec 2017 #48
NPR Roberts just commented on the problem delisen Dec 2017 #29
Don't forget Tom Perez SHRED Dec 2017 #36
re-post 90-percent Dec 2017 #40
We'll see. I know it's caused a problem with ME. But a correction to your post. Honeycombe8 Dec 2017 #43
I have not read anything that makes me think he is guilty either. Demsrule86 Dec 2017 #47
Stupid, stupid, stupid. And these are the Dems we trust to push our agenda in Washington? MrModerate Dec 2017 #49
Thank you! blue cat Dec 2017 #50
Any bets Gillibrand will resign? TheCowsCameHome Dec 2017 #53
When Does Gillibrand come up for reelection? disndat Dec 2017 #118
She's up in 2018. TheCowsCameHome Dec 2017 #122
Thought so True Blue American Dec 2017 #137
Ideological purity... Then some of them hugged a supposed sexual abuser keithbvadu2 Dec 2017 #56
Check out Gillibrand Facebook page PatSeg Dec 2017 #63
+1. Look quick before she erases them dalton99a Dec 2017 #64
I'm not 100% sure about this mchill Dec 2017 #78
Yeah PatSeg Dec 2017 #80
several accuse her of sexual assault questionseverything Dec 2017 #114
She'll scrub it, better take a look now. TheCowsCameHome Dec 2017 #70
Yes PatSeg Dec 2017 #82
As usual, establishment Dems seem more obsessed with distancing themselves from their base Loubee Dec 2017 #65
Was This a Case of a Wealthy Donor Demanding to Get His Way? dlk Dec 2017 #68
Cloobeck blasted Dems for attacking millionaires and billionaires dalton99a Dec 2017 #69
Wow that Cloobeck is an asshole! Owl Dec 2017 #75
Okay so how are they going to respond to our disgust, the disgust of most dem voters? flamingdem Dec 2017 #72
I'm not being ignored - Joan Walsh blocked me on Twitter mchill Dec 2017 #81
He should have stood by his original comments randr Dec 2017 #73
Gingrich said Al was "lynched" Takket Dec 2017 #74
Yep. And it's not the "left" on this one, it's anyone flamingdem Dec 2017 #76
There were never going to kick Moore out to begin with. LisaL Dec 2017 #79
Bingo dalton99a Dec 2017 #85
I agree Katinfl Dec 2017 #119
Gillibrand Shoots Herself in the Foot disndat Dec 2017 #86
how stupid are they? Skittles Dec 2017 #104
And now opening up other Democrats to the same kind of scrutiny and divisiveness krispos42 Dec 2017 #87
Republicans are laughing their asses off dalton99a Dec 2017 #88
Look... floWteiuQ Dec 2017 #89
Agree with all eight points karin_sj Dec 2017 #90
This looks like a shit stirring troll post. Into the trash it goes. Kirk Lover Dec 2017 #93
In case you haven't noticed, the extreme majority here agrees with me. And I am a LIFELONG Dem. LBM20 Dec 2017 #123
I've noticed...believe me I've noticed. It actually reminds me of the JPR people..it's insanity Kirk Lover Dec 2017 #127
Brilliant! McCamy Taylor Dec 2017 #130
I think the Democrats did the right thing. lancelyons Dec 2017 #96
And accomplished what? Weakened us in Congress, made us look like suckers to the RW. Binkie The Clown Dec 2017 #133
The dumb call was Frankens decision Sienna86 Dec 2017 #97
it was tweedens LIE about the photo that did the damage. blimablam Dec 2017 #107
No. As a woman it offends me. Sienna86 Dec 2017 #117
Your last paragraph is exactly what the Democratic Party leadership should PatrickforO Dec 2017 #101
This message was self-deleted by its author Skittles Dec 2017 #103
I've learned something underthematrix Dec 2017 #105
Only with DownriverDem Dec 2017 #108
I'd add #9 to this list radhika Dec 2017 #109
#9, Clementine saidsimplesimon Dec 2017 #110
Not to mention painting the Democratic Party as hyper-reactionaries, KPN Dec 2017 #111
Democratic Faux News Equals moonseller66 Dec 2017 #112
We are loading the gun and raising our foot. demosincebirth Dec 2017 #115
Franken needed to deny the claims against him Progressive dog Dec 2017 #121
He did but tried to do it in a very respectful way, as he said in his speech on the Senate floor. LBM20 Dec 2017 #124
The ghost of Rolande Barthes is demanding that I analyze this thread McCamy Taylor Dec 2017 #129
RE: "lynching" & Divide and Conquer Binkie The Clown Dec 2017 #134
This incident quite possibly marks the beginning of the end of the Democratic party. Binkie The Clown Dec 2017 #131
Agreed Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2017 #141
You know the easy way to atone is for all those senators to call for Trump to step down now... Blue_Tires Dec 2017 #142
 

LBM20

(1,580 posts)
2. Unity there, but there are some who have also dug in on the other side. I see it on social media.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 07:16 AM
Dec 2017

PatrickforO

(14,516 posts)
102. Yes, I think most of us are more concerned with due process and actual justice
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:26 PM
Dec 2017

than some mob action.

We're the last bastion of sanity is this great suck-fest that has become America. If we cave in and jettison common decency, morality and throw common sense out the window, then there is no sanity left.

FarPoint

(12,209 posts)
4. Agreed....
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 07:34 AM
Dec 2017

That said, we are severely diminished as a Party by it.... grassroots voter support will dwindle as we all were " Franken- ended". Unity resulting with mass disparity...

95. Anecdotal evidence
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:50 PM
Dec 2017

Facebook posts on Senator Gilibrand's page. Discussion with family and friends, who are strong Democrats.

Sure, it's anecdotal, but I get the impression that people are pissed.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
7. Yes.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 07:57 AM
Dec 2017

And Shirley Sherrod. But, I don't see the despair that some are seeing. Instead, I see this as another teaching moment for those who casually say that both sides are the same. I have hope that the perpetual false equivalence syndrome will be abated, at least in some measure. Maybe we will move forward as a more unified party. One thing we can take from the "right".....they always stick together.

ornotna

(10,763 posts)
19. How many teaching moments do we need
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:06 AM
Dec 2017

THEY are not going to change and unfortunately we will continue to shoot ourself in the foot.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
24. I understand the feeling....
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:24 AM
Dec 2017

But some can and do change. For example, after drinking the both sides are the same punch during the Ralph Nader fiasco, Michael Moore has since corrected his ways. It is true that some will never change. However, we can not afford to give up on those who can and will.

The Wizard

(12,483 posts)
45. If one side lies 90% of the time
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:01 AM
Dec 2017

and the other side lies 10% of the time, are they considered equally dishonest. Democrats have set themselves up for failure in years to come with this purity test.

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
11. The Moore race isn't looking good
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:17 AM
Dec 2017

He actually polls higher now than before his actions were first reported. Jones does too, but it isn't looking good.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
61. Franken's approval rating dropped from over 50% to mid 30s
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:48 AM
Dec 2017

A majority of voters think both parties have handled sexual harassment badly and a plurality think Franken should resign and that Moore should withdraw.

Over 60% of voters think a politician should resign when faced with multiple accusations of sexual harassment.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-democrats-are-finally-pushing-franken-to-resign/

 

janterry

(4,429 posts)
62. Oh, well
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:01 AM
Dec 2017

that's the story . TY

That will probably shift a bit upwards (it often does), but for Franken to regain his former numbers.......a whole different narrative would have to evolve.

I still like him

questionseverything

(9,631 posts)
113. i went thru the polls and found differently
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 04:31 PM
Dec 2017

Democrat

Remain in Office -- 34 percent

Resign from Office -- 14 percent

Wait for Results -- 46 percent

Not Sure -- 6 percent

Republican

Remain in Office -- 12 percent

Resign from Office -- 61 percent

Wait for Results -- 18 percent

Not Sure -- 9 percent

Lokilooney

(322 posts)
125. I saw that MN poll too
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 07:27 PM
Dec 2017

It's also split along party lines in regard to perceived future effectiveness.

Democrat

Effective -- 52 percent

Ineffective -- 19 percent

Not Sure -- 29 percent

Republican

Effective -- 16 percent

Ineffective -- 61 percent

Not Sure -- 22 percent

Now watch Roy Moore win, as the saying goes all politics is local. Out of state Democrats should have kept there noses out of it until the ethics committee was done.

questionseverything

(9,631 posts)
126. ethics committee work should be done in public from now on too
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 07:34 PM
Dec 2017

franken is absolutely one of our best senators

sessions lied 3 times to the senate with franken questioning him and yet he is still "the top law enforcement officer" and franken is going to be out?

Jarqui

(10,110 posts)
10. I think it is a wedge issue
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:17 AM
Dec 2017

Some, like me, feel Franken did not get the due process the circumstances indicated.

Others felt they heard enough from his accusers to effectively convict him without examining the evidence via hearing/due process.

No matter what, the GOP peel away at the Dem support.

global1

(25,169 posts)
20. Help Me Here People....
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:07 AM
Dec 2017

How many accusers did Franken supposedly have? I only recall two. Tweeden and the last lady that accused Franken of grabbing her flesh around her waist when posing for a picture. And on that one I learned that she recently put on weight and was self-conscious about that.

How many accusers? What did they say he did to them to cause them to claim they were harrassed? Where they above board and give their names or just make anonymous claims? I must have been asleep at the wheel because i don't recall multiple accusations. Someone please enlighten me.

riverwalker

(8,694 posts)
55. The second one
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:26 AM
Dec 2017

Came out when everyone was just learning about how shady Tweeden was. Lindsay Menz, who says the photo at 2010 State Fair was taken at precise moment Franken “squeezed her butt” and she was shocked. But the photo does not show any such thing, she is relaxed and smiling. This one pisses me off the most because Lindsay shopped her story around, and no one bit until MJ Lee of CNN who seems to have a vendetta against Franken, published it. Lindsay’s family are supporters of Tea party candidates in Minnesota. I asked MJ if the photo was cropped to not show Frankens hands, or any collaborating proof. The article says a sister posted a comment on Facebook when it happened, BUT no one has seen it, and someone said sister not even on Facebook until 2011. The fact that MJ ran the story without evidence except for a possibly cropped photo was devastating because we had just heard about Tweeden and her story & photo.
It was like a sucker one two punch, how does Franken defend himself? It was totally irresponsible journalism.

riverwalker

(8,694 posts)
57. The others
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:31 AM
Dec 2017

Were some anonymous “hand on butt” at photo ops. Then there was a soldier who said 14 years ago during a photo he put his 8 foot long Gumby arms around her waist up to her breast, but in the article about her claim, MJ goes into long detail about the soldiers assault by another soldier the year before photo with Franken, left her with PTSD.

riverwalker

(8,694 posts)
58. But the one that was the final straw
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:35 AM
Dec 2017

Was absolutely ridiculous. A photo op, and he put his hand on her WAIST. But she was embarrassed because she gained weight after quitting smoking and didn’t want his hand on her waist. When I take photos, it’s automatic to put an arm around someone. This is the most absurd complaint of all, yet it “was the final straw” that made his colleagues throw him under the bus!

PatSeg

(46,807 posts)
60. Yes
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:47 AM
Dec 2017

Because people were paying more attentions to "numbers" than to the actual allegations. "Well, if there were six, it must be true."

Total hit job.

mchill

(1,015 posts)
77. Sadly, they must know that's what most Americans are paying attention to
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:02 PM
Dec 2017

The devil is always in the details.

PatSeg

(46,807 posts)
83. True
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:20 PM
Dec 2017

Not everyone is paying close attention and are only reading or listening to the headlines. After all the shocking stories that have surfaced about famous abusers, many people probably just thought, "There's another one".

Amaryllis

(9,523 posts)
98. THat's what my sister thought, and she is a progressive who is pretty tuned in. I gave
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:10 PM
Dec 2017

her the history on Tweeden and she had no idea.

PatSeg

(46,807 posts)
116. And you can understand why this happens
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 05:19 PM
Dec 2017

There is so much to keep track of these days and not everyone has the time to research everything they hear or read. I am retired and have more time than most, but even I have a hard time keeping up, especially since Trump came on the scene.

PatSeg

(46,807 posts)
140. And he was
Mon Dec 11, 2017, 01:46 PM
Dec 2017

Bush was the reason I became obsessed with politics. I couldn't imagine any president being worse than him and now I'm afraid to say that about Trump. What if it could get worse?

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
92. That's LITERALLY what the Commission on Outrage used as a calculus.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:22 PM
Dec 2017

They decided that if just one more accusation was made, they would pronounce guilt. The nature of the accusation was irrelevant, so it only took one publicity-hound with an utterly ridiculous tale of trauma to tip the scales.

PatSeg

(46,807 posts)
94. Like a hand around one's waist
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:31 PM
Dec 2017

The media shares a lot of blame on this one. They quickly reported without question every allegation that came down the pipe.

True Blue American

(17,972 posts)
12. When I watched those women Senators
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:18 AM
Dec 2017

accept Lindsey Graham to join them my admiration was all gone. A couple are in a fight for their political life. They sacrificed one of our best for themselves.

You can bet that sleazy Jeff Sessions has his hands all over this. Al exposed him. And Tweedon allowed herself to be used. Wonder how she feels now? Knowing Al helped her career?

SergeStorms

(18,907 posts)
135. Republicans have two rules.
Mon Dec 11, 2017, 04:35 AM
Dec 2017

Rule number one - never have remorse for anything you say, or any of your actions. Republicans never make mistakes!

Rule number two - see rule number one.

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
13. All of this is true IF he didn't do what he was accused of
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:18 AM
Dec 2017

If he's actually guilty, then the results are just what should have been expected.

rzemanfl

(29,540 posts)
38. So boorish he claimed an entire decade for himself.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:53 AM
Dec 2017

He should be drawn and quartered.

because you never know around here these days....

Martin Eden

(12,805 posts)
16. All of this is true REGARDLESS of Franken's guilt
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:45 AM
Dec 2017

The OP calls for due process to establish guilt before punishment.

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
44. 2,4, and 5 clearly aren't
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:00 AM
Dec 2017
The OP calls for due process to establish guilt before punishment.

That assumes that he was lying during his resignation speech... because he claims that the reason he's leaving is that while he didn't do anything wrong, the due process process would distract so much from his duties that he couldn't effectively represent his constituents.

Amaryllis

(9,523 posts)
100. He may be right about that. The righties would continue to create "set up" stories, which
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:14 PM
Dec 2017

MSM would then report.

SergeStorms

(18,907 posts)
136. There was a time....
Mon Dec 11, 2017, 05:06 AM
Dec 2017

when news organizations had people called "journalists", who would actually investigate the veracity of a story before reporting on it!
Can you imagine that?

When the main stream media transformed from actual journalism to a variety entertainment show (the FOX Noise effect), their usefulness as a reliable resource for facts plummeted. If you want to watch a variety show with bits of unsubstantiated political information sprinkled in, then by all means, watch the main stream media for entertainment purposes only.

If you want facts, you're far, far better off reading a reputable foreign news service, who doesn't have a monetary or political dog in any of the hunts on which it reports. They're funded by anonymous individual donors; not parent networks, left or right-wing "think" tanks, or oligarchs looking for a friendly voice for hire. They are independent, as it should be when truth matters, and the truth always matters.

dalton99a

(81,091 posts)
51. Few will forget this loss - No Franken, no Obamacare... No Franken, No Mueller investigation...
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:07 AM
Dec 2017

Franken gave Democrats the 60th vote to pass the ACA

Franken forced Sessions to recuse himself which prompted the naming of a special counsel

and all his bestsellers against the RW

Deb

(3,742 posts)
21. What about abuse of power
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:15 AM
Dec 2017

A State is being deprived of it's elected representation.

To think that trump will get his day in court makes this injustice all the more galling.



spike91nz

(180 posts)
22. Franken should switch partie
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:19 AM
Dec 2017

Becoming republican he can ignore the accusations of sexual harassment and then lead the charge for impeachment of Trump from within the majority party. Once the mission is accomplished he can address the sexual harassment accusers and return to being a democratic. His coming to terms with the reality that the left will always fragment into infighting factions and undermine the collective effort toward progress, will provide a unique opportunity for his formidable intelligence to address the critical issues currently facing democracy. If he switches parties,he has the advantage of the laser focus of the myoptic right employed to the effort to achieve justice and save the republic from Trump and Putin, and can then return to the moral self examination required of the left, and to which the right is immune.

dembotoz

(16,740 posts)
59. really?????? would respond more clearly but that would earn an alert for attacking
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:42 AM
Dec 2017

another dem....

Renew Deal

(81,803 posts)
23. Who said this?
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:22 AM
Dec 2017

“The fact my own actions have given people a good reason to doubt that makes me feel ashamed”

kacekwl

(6,994 posts)
28. EXACTLY !! He should have said
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:34 AM
Dec 2017

these women are a bunch of lying sluts , I never did anything they said and will sue them all. Now vote for me bitches.

Chemisse

(30,793 posts)
35. No he shouldn't have. His response was classy.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:50 AM
Dec 2017

I admire him all the more for it.

Some things are more important than winning at politics.

Chemisse

(30,793 posts)
66. I wasn't offended (although I guess you meant that sarcastically as well). n/t
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:09 AM
Dec 2017

It's difficult when one has to guess if a post is sarcastic or not. I didn't even suspect that yours was. Certainly there are people who would post that in all seriousness.

 

MrModerate

(9,753 posts)
52. Winning isn't everything in politics . . . it's the ONLY thing.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:09 AM
Dec 2017

If we unilaterally disarm -- as in the case of Franken's completely needless resignation -- then Republicans will thank us very much and continue destroying the country with improved majorities in Washington.

Dems lose voters because we're seen as weak-kneed and timid. And this week's demonstration of cravenness by the Dem caucus has just reinforced that reputation.

zentrum

(9,865 posts)
25. Headline here raises the
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:25 AM
Dec 2017

Last edited Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:08 AM - Edit history (1)

…..question: Has the move really backfired? As a fact, rather than an opinion?

I, for one, am furious and spent half a day writing, and calling Gillibrand, Schumer, Feinstein and many of the other Democrats who did this.

But, is the majority of Democratic voters actually also doing and feeling the same? Our irate-ness is not the same as an actual groundswell of anger against this.

Does anyone know what is actually taking place outside in the vast middle of the Party?

That said—one more thing needs to be added to the above excellent list. Trump lost Minnesota by a narrow margin. By giving up Franken's seat, the Dems have set us up for a real right wing challenge. I'm sick with this.

delisen

(6,039 posts)
29. NPR Roberts just commented on the problem
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:38 AM
Dec 2017

caused for Democrats by forcing out Franken.

So the high profile "solution" is now a high profile problem for Democrats.

This is a self-inflicted wound.

I consider this a problem created by the leadership team Schumer/Durbin. I wonder how Harry Reid would have dealt with the Franken issue.









Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
43. We'll see. I know it's caused a problem with ME. But a correction to your post.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:00 AM
Dec 2017

It's irrelevant that other women state that the didn't harass THEM. Moore had a similar testament, too. When you are tried for a crime in court, it's not a defense that you had never robbed a jewelry store BEFORE, therefore, you didn't rob this one!

It matters as a testament to character, pattern of behavior...but doesn't really show innocence as to the particular allegations.

Having said that...I have no doubt that Franken is not guilty of harassment or groping or molestation. I've not seen or read anything that tells me otherwise. (Grabbing a waist when you come in close for a fan's selfie is NOT groping or molestation.)

 

MrModerate

(9,753 posts)
49. Stupid, stupid, stupid. And these are the Dems we trust to push our agenda in Washington?
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:03 AM
Dec 2017

We need some new Dems, starting with Gilliland.

disndat

(1,887 posts)
118. When Does Gillibrand come up for reelection?
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 06:15 PM
Dec 2017

I hope it's 2018. Maybe AF could reestablish his NYS residency and run against her.

True Blue American

(17,972 posts)
137. Thought so
Mon Dec 11, 2017, 09:16 AM
Dec 2017

Destroy a fellow Dem to aggrandize her self.

Guys I was willing to accept those Senators until I saw Lindsey Graham strut out.

He played golf with Trump again,is gipushing over him,demanding an investigation of the Clinton Emails,uranium, anything to get the heat off Trump.

Mika was saying this morning,” Guys,he lies,you will never get what you want!” Lindsey is bucking for a cabinet position. What a lousy turncoat Graham is.

Went from hating Trump to sipucking up to him. You think Lindsey might be having a Senior ,
Moment,too?

keithbvadu2

(36,371 posts)
56. Ideological purity... Then some of them hugged a supposed sexual abuser
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:29 AM
Dec 2017

Ideological purity... Then some of them hugged a supposed sexual abuser

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029953946#post36

PatSeg

(46,807 posts)
63. Check out Gillibrand Facebook page
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:04 AM
Dec 2017

The backlash is overwhelming. Worst political move of her career, I'd think.

So Stupid... throwing Franken into the same group as Moore (and Trump) is stupid. If we are going to really deal with this issue of sexual harassment and assault.. we must be able to distinguish degrees of offense. Horsing around and committing a vulgar teen prank, or having your arm around a woman's waist go too far.... are not the same as taking little 14 and 16 year old girls in private to strip and fondle. Give me a break. Again.. the Democrats eat their own.. the Republicans are laughing, as they back their Sexual Predator in Chief and their "family values" pedophile, And Frankin get Sooo Stupid


It should have been left up to Minnesota if whether they wanted Senator Franken to stay or go. He was hung out to dry by his own party. If you want to hang someone, go after Trump. So disappointed.


Don't you think you were a bit fast on the draw in condemning Al Franken? How do you know he wasn't set up? I think an investigation still needs to be held. Especially with all the other stories involved with wrong doing in sexual harassment.


You know this is a political move. You want to run for President, at least appears so, you ran the spear into the heart of Al Franken. Changes against him are so minor compared to POTUS and others. Should have allowed ethics committee to investigate and come to conclusion. I live on LI, and won’t be voting for you again.


Well, well, well. So now it is coming out that Roger Stone set up this attack on Al Franken. Why did everyone smell a rat but you and your phony cronies? The Dems will never get ahead. You have a lot of rectifying to do, so get busy and get Franken back in the Senate. And if you don't, your career is through.


Most of the comments about Franken read pretty much the same. People are seeing through this political sham. A small handful are supportive.

https://www.facebook.com/SenKirstenGillibrand/

mchill

(1,015 posts)
78. I'm not 100% sure about this
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:06 PM
Dec 2017

but the same thing is happening on Kamala Harris's page (I'm sure about that), but later last night, I could not find the relevant post with most of the comments. Did she scrub?

questionseverything

(9,631 posts)
114. several accuse her of sexual assault
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 04:44 PM
Dec 2017

Wayne Hynum Hey Kirsten Gillibrand. I suddenly remember you touched my butt several years ago. It was so humiliating. Several other men say they remember you touching them too. So resign your Senate seat immediately! See how easy it is for people to make false allegations? That's why you don't force someone out without giving them the chance to have a hearing and defend themselves.

PatSeg

(46,807 posts)
82. Yes
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:17 PM
Dec 2017

That is why I decided to post some of the comments, rather than just the Facebook link.

People are really angry, so even if she does scrub the comments, a lot of people will just go back and post again.

Loubee

(165 posts)
65. As usual, establishment Dems seem more obsessed with distancing themselves from their base
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:06 AM
Dec 2017

than saving our country from the GOP crime syndicate power grab.

dlk

(11,439 posts)
68. Was This a Case of a Wealthy Donor Demanding to Get His Way?
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:31 AM
Dec 2017

I'll admit, until this morning, I'd never heard of Stephen Cloobeck. From what I've read, he sounds like a bully who demanded Franken's resignation under the threat of pulling $ millions in campaign donations because his feelings were hurt by the word "billionaire." (Oversized snowflake?) If that's the case, our democracy is in much worse shape than most of us realize.

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
72. Okay so how are they going to respond to our disgust, the disgust of most dem voters?
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:41 AM
Dec 2017

They had better not ignore us. The wound will fester.

I wish a reliable pollster would see the stats. I bet 80% of us think they made a colossal error.

mchill

(1,015 posts)
81. I'm not being ignored - Joan Walsh blocked me on Twitter
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:16 PM
Dec 2017

And she has shut down comments on her FB page. Good riddins.

randr

(12,408 posts)
73. He should have stood by his original comments
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:42 AM
Dec 2017

He should have followed the Republican plan; let the voters in his state decide to send him back or not.

Takket

(21,425 posts)
74. Gingrich said Al was "lynched"
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:52 AM
Dec 2017

Why is that talking point important?

With the left itself angry Al was denied due process, the right now has a "get out of jail free card" for all their crimes. "We can't just lynch someone like Al was lynched, give everyone due process!"

Moore will win, and "due process" that goes nowhere will take part in the Senate until it is just forgotten about. he will never be kicked out.

We wanted moral high ground, GOP is going to flip this on its ear and use it against us.

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
79. There were never going to kick Moore out to begin with.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:07 PM
Dec 2017

And there are plenty of issues to attack Moore one, that don't have anything to do with Al Franken. There was no need to kick Al out in order to attack Moore.

Katinfl

(156 posts)
119. I agree
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 06:24 PM
Dec 2017

This is going to backfire big time! I know the Dems want to seem like they are doing the right thing and shame the GOP into following suit. Not gonna happen. Moore will get to the Senate and stay there. No ethics, no nothing...........and we lose a good one before any ethics investigation. And I get so fed up with everyone’s disgust about these allegations........spare me the outrage. 30% of the electorate chose to vote for an admitted (by his own words) sexual offender and I will not pay any attention to their outcries as long as he is in office. When he is held up to the same standards, then we can talk.

I don’t mean to infer that I am referring to anyone here on DU......just the general public.

disndat

(1,887 posts)
86. Gillibrand Shoots Herself in the Foot
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:25 PM
Dec 2017

It is so gratifying to see this tsunami of Gillibrand backlash. I thought I was the only one to react to the call for Al Franken's resignation with sadness and heartbreak.
Gillibrand not only shot herself in the foot she seems to have self-immolated with her reply to a reporter's question if she also
apply her call for Al Franken's resignation to Bill Clinton. Her answer accomplished a major-major setback since the Clintons were once her main supporters.
It remains to be seen if she can get past the Primaries in her next N.Y.S. reelection campaign.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
87. And now opening up other Democrats to the same kind of scrutiny and divisiveness
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:27 PM
Dec 2017

After the Russia-backed Bernie vs Hillary schism.

Democrats: once again snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

floWteiuQ

(82 posts)
89. Look...
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:41 PM
Dec 2017

It's Frankens call. Not you. Gilliland, Schumer, or Pelosi. Al blew it since an investigation would have been an important step for women. However, Al chose and these posts about the dumbness of the Democrats pales in comparison to if any of the accusations against Al are even remotely true.

karin_sj

(805 posts)
90. Agree with all eight points
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:49 PM
Dec 2017
All of your points are valid and I sure as hell wish that Al would have stayed strong, hung in there, and insisted on a formal investigation. I just hope that more credible information is revealed that will encourage some of those senators, who were so quick act as judge and jury, to see the light and encourage him to stay and go through the ethics investigation. Unlikely, I know, but I can hope...
 

LBM20

(1,580 posts)
123. In case you haven't noticed, the extreme majority here agrees with me. And I am a LIFELONG Dem.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 07:12 PM
Dec 2017
 

Kirk Lover

(3,608 posts)
127. I've noticed...believe me I've noticed. It actually reminds me of the JPR people..it's insanity
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 07:44 PM
Dec 2017

as far as I'm concerned.

 

lancelyons

(988 posts)
96. I think the Democrats did the right thing.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:51 PM
Dec 2017

if everybody is so gung ho on Franken staying an the democratic party now sucks...how would Franken stay in and not be considered a sexual harasser. HOW?

There does not seem to be any effort to discredit these women working for the GOP. Nobody is wanting to go there. If they are not exposed as fake or doing something political or wrong, then the accusations stand. If you cry about due process for franken then there would also need to be due process for roy moore rigth?

Franken should have exposed these women in such a way to frame them as co conspirators with Hannity or Fox News. That didnt happen.

I think the democratic party did the right thing. The only way to take the high road and make sure women know the democrats will even lose one of their own to advance this important womens issue.

Its clear the democrats have taken a step toward aligning more with women and their rights.

Binkie The Clown

(7,911 posts)
133. And accomplished what? Weakened us in Congress, made us look like suckers to the RW.
Mon Dec 11, 2017, 02:40 AM
Dec 2017

The RW is laughing their asses off over us destroying ourselves without their help.

What they did was so far and away the very worst thing they could have done as to be light years beyond the pale. It just boggles my mind that anyone could support that decision.

Sienna86

(2,147 posts)
97. The dumb call was Frankens decision
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:58 PM
Dec 2017

To pose for the offensive photograph years ago. Lest you be offended, I donated money to his campaign. A reaction and the repercussions to that photo are not dumb.

PatrickforO

(14,516 posts)
101. Your last paragraph is exactly what the Democratic Party leadership should
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:24 PM
Dec 2017

have done. Exactly.

Instead, some bozo handler must have suggested the term 'zero tolerance' and these people mistakenly thought that was a good idea instead of the centuries-old and sacred right of all people to due process.

Response to LBM20 (Original post)

underthematrix

(5,811 posts)
105. I've learned something
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:30 PM
Dec 2017

You can manipulate Republican voters with hate and Democratic voters with outrage.

The only way to protect yourself from this intense level of manipulation is to READ history on a broad range of subjects.

Right now, I'm Lawrence O'Donnell's Playing with Fire which is about the 1968 campaign. It's the kind f book that's very hard to put down.

DownriverDem

(6,207 posts)
108. Only with
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:50 PM
Dec 2017

folks who don't understand politics. So keep on focusing on the wrong thing. Ignore the fight with the repubs. That will really work.

radhika

(1,008 posts)
109. I'd add #9 to this list
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:58 PM
Dec 2017

9) Showed Bannon and right-wing operatives how easy it is to trigger libruls and Dems into rash self-destructive actions. Sit back and watch them self-destruct for no political or social benefits. This is a cheap ploy that they can reliably replicate at all levels of electoral office.

The Dems are now stuck with this act - even if they rescind it, and Al stays.

KPN

(15,587 posts)
111. Not to mention painting the Democratic Party as hyper-reactionaries,
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 03:19 PM
Dec 2017

no less than the Tea Party.

moonseller66

(430 posts)
112. Democratic Faux News Equals
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 03:36 PM
Dec 2017

So now we know there are a number of Left Wing viewers who only watch, listen to or choose to hear one side of a story much as those Fox Viewers they've ranted about.

Rather than trying to become better informed, they rushed to judgment about Franken based on the reports of only those they seem to pay attention to ignoring any attempt to become better informed.

After years of bitching that the Right only has eyes and ears for Fox News, it's disturbing to learn there are so many Democrats who wear one vew blinders and listen only to what they want. I thought we on the Left checked things out before...

Those who were the ones rushing to judgment are no better than those who swear by Fox News.

Holier-than-thou now appears to be not limited to the Right.

Mores the pity!

Progressive dog

(6,862 posts)
121. Franken needed to deny the claims against him
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 06:48 PM
Dec 2017

and if those women were all liars, say so. He didn't and now some expect Democrats to defend him when he won't even defend himself.
It may be a bad call, but Franken left them no other option.

McCamy Taylor

(19,240 posts)
129. The ghost of Rolande Barthes is demanding that I analyze this thread
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:43 PM
Dec 2017

because it is currently the most popular thread at DU, which tells us something---but maybe not what we think.

Lots of inflammatory words here. Lots of BIG LETTERS. They catch the eye, they stir the imagination. Let's get rid of the little words and see what the guts sees when it skims through this piece.

"

DUMB Gillibrand DUMB lynch mobbing of Franken! RUSHING TO JUDGEMENT!! shady and WEAK EVIL of FALSE EQUIVALENCY mob mentality mega-hypocrites and weaklings.Bad call! lynchmob route pissed off in a big way causing needless gender divisions swept down the rabbit hole of media frenzy and mob mentality. STUPID!"


First thing I notice: a false equivalence. Al Franken was not lynched. This is what a lynching looks like:



This is what your gut saw four times when you read the words "lynch mobbing", "mob mentality", 'lynchmob route" and "mob mentality." This picture is why these words get you fired up. But Al Franken was not lynched. He was a victim of character assassination. Big difference. How big a difference? Here is what you look like after character assassination:



Next, there is the breast beating. "DUMB. DUMB shady WEAK EVIL hypocrites weaklings bad call needless frenzy swept down the rabbit hole. STUPID" Who would want to be associated with a group of people like that? No one. That is why I am a Democrat and not a Republican, because those words describe the current GOP to a T. And yet, they are presented as a critique of the Democrats which then begs the question "If Democrats are the same as Republicans, why do I even bother to vote?" and we all know how helpful that attitude has been for our country.

Now a few words about Republican propaganda. I am not saying that the text above it Republican propaganda. I just want to share a few things to keep in mind when reading political essays on the Internet. One, Divide and Conquer is the GOP's favorite tool. And two, when they are caught with their hands in the cookie jar or with their pants down, they always resort to They All Do It (so why even bother voting?). Whenever you read anything political always ask yourself "Does this effectively divide and conquer my party?' and "Does this make me think that my vote is wasted on my party?"



Binkie The Clown

(7,911 posts)
134. RE: "lynching" & Divide and Conquer
Mon Dec 11, 2017, 02:51 AM
Dec 2017

Re: Lynching

fig·ur·a·tive
ˈfiɡyərədiv/
adjective
adjective: figurative

1.
departing from a literal use of words; metaphorical.
"gold, in the figurative language of the people, was “the tears wept by the sun.”"
synonyms: metaphorical, nonliteral, symbolic, allegorical, representative, emblematic
"the example given was meant to be figurative"


Divide and Conquer: Did Gillibrand's actions divide us? If yes, then who do we blame for that division? What should our response be? Roll over and play dead?

Binkie The Clown

(7,911 posts)
131. This incident quite possibly marks the beginning of the end of the Democratic party.
Mon Dec 11, 2017, 02:22 AM
Dec 2017

It's being torn down from the inside with our strongest and best leaders being eaten alive by greedy opportunists. I, for one, won't forget this betrayal.

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,355 posts)
141. Agreed
Mon Dec 11, 2017, 02:09 PM
Dec 2017

completely boneheaded and tone deaf move that will likely accomplish nothing except establishing an impossible precedent for future accusations against Democratic politicians that will help make it easier for Republicans to de-rail any Democratic politicians deemed by right-wing Republicans or other political opponents to be troublesome to their interests or annoying. And the best part for Republicans is that Senate Democrats have demonstrated that, if there are enough accusations of wrongdoing or impropriety, the Party will do the Republicans' dirty work of getting rid of them.

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