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Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 07:17 PM Jul 2016

Unable To Stop Syria’s War, US Offers Russia New Partnership

Source: Washington Post



By Bradley Klapper?|?AP July 14 at 5:48 PM

MOSCOW — The United States on Thursday offered Russia a broad new military partnership in Syria, hoping the attraction of a unified campaign against the Islamic State group and al-Qaida — and a Russian commitment to ground Syria’s bombers — could end five years of civil war. If finalized, the deal could dramatically alter America’s role in the conflict.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry met Russian President Vladimir Putin in the Kremlin on Thursday to present him the new ideas. The eight-page proposal, which The Washington Post published on its website, shows the U.S. offering intelligence and targeting sharing, and even joint bombing operations. It is a pact Moscow long had wanted, but the Obama administration resisted.

“Hopefully we’ll be able to make some genuine progress that is measurable and implementable and that can make a difference in the course of events in Syria,” Kerry said.

Putin said he was looking for “tangible results.”

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/leaked-proposal-us-offering-russia-military-pact-in-syria/2016/07/14/b562e920-4998-11e6-8dac-0c6e4accc5b1_story.html

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uawchild

(2,208 posts)
1. So, PUTIN WINS!?!
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 07:28 PM
Jul 2016

Sorry, I could not resist the title, since I have been accused of posting from St. Petersburg. lol

Seriously, the civil war in Syria needs to be brought to a diplomatic end. It's past time for a brokered peace settlement in this brutal civil war.

Perhaps then ways can be found to combat ISIS with out continuing the horrendous loss of innocent civilians essentially held hostage by that group.

Hopefully, this new agreement is a step in that direction.

forest444

(5,902 posts)
10. You too, huh?
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:56 PM
Jul 2016

Though no particular city was mentioned, I was twice accused by somebody here - who, uh, shall go unnamed - of being a paid Putin troll (and of being overpaid, at that).

He's a big fan of the current Ukrainian regime. I simply dislike the fact that they came to power thanks to openly Nazi (Svoboda) riots - and remains close to them to this day, handing over control of key military installations to Svoboda figures and allies. Svoboda, if you'll recall, was the puppet Ukranian regime installed by Hitler - which, unfortunately, still has quite a following there.

I also believe that any realistic goals of crushing ISIS for once and for all must, by necessity, involve working with Assad and Putin. Assad, because his government (and his very life) depend on defeating the ISIS menace, and Putin because he's got the money and the firepower to make it happen.

His decision to be directly involved militarily last November or so has made a world of difference on turning those monsters back, and whatever else can be said about Putin (and there's plenty) that's the kind of cooperation we need. We just can't afford to lose sight of the big picture, whatever other differences we might have.

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
12. Thanks for the thoughtful post
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:41 PM
Jul 2016

I agree with your positions on both Ukraine and Syria. You stated those with much more clarity and succinctness than I can usually muster. Lol

As for the, and what else's can I call them, Russophobes, there certainly are one or two that are most vociferous. I try to get them to see both Putin and Russia in general for what they actually are, warts and all, and not as distorted two dimensional caricatures. I feel it is important to try to defuse both the demonization and Cold War II hysteria that seems way to frequent here on DU. It's a small effort to try to avert jingoism that could contribute to an actual shooting war.

Again, thanks for your post and this opportunity to reply.

As for being call a paid communist agent for my posts on China snd the South China Sea dispute -- BEEN THERE, GOT THE TSHIRT. Lol

forest444

(5,902 posts)
13. Well said. A lot seems to get through the MIRT team, unfortunately.
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:48 PM
Jul 2016

Besides: it's common knowledge that when scoundrels are cornered by your arguments, the first thing they do is try to impugn your personal motives - and in the internet age the easiest way to do that is to call someone a paid troll (especially of someone who's been widely demonized).

It's a cheap shot; but it comes with the territory I guess.

Yupster

(14,308 posts)
18. I think Russia will be willing to come to a diplomatic end
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:42 AM
Jul 2016

as long as Assad stays in power and all of Syria is under his control.

Our concern should be what can be done to protect the Kurds from Assad's revenge once he has the rest of the country under control again.

We sat while Russia acted so Russia gets what it wants.

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
19. My concern is Sharia Law in Syria
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:55 AM
Jul 2016

if the moderate Wahhabist rebels we fund win. That means the civil liberties of women and religious minorities will suffer as they already do in Saudi Arabia.

I take your point about being concerned about revenge against the Kurds, but would like to extend that concern to ALL parties in the civil war. Civil wars are brutal and the aftermaths usually horrible too for the losers.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
2. Germany's Merkel Calls for Better Ties Between Russia, EU
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 07:46 PM
Jul 2016

German Chancellor Angela Merkel called on Thursday for an end to tensions with Russia and for boosting ties between the European Union and the Russia-led Eurasian Economic Union after years of conflict between the EU and Moscow over Ukraine.

"It's true that we have some work ahead of us, but I support this in principle," Merkel said on a visit to Kyrgyzstan designed to bolster economic relations with the Central Asian nation ahead of a Eurasian summit in Mongolia this weekend.

Kyrgyzstan is a member of the Eurasian Economic Union, a Moscow-dominated trade bloc of several former Soviet republics.

"If there is goodwill all around, then we can do it, and then we will focus on other topics again," Merkel said.

http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/1.731034

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
3. Have we found a new side to be on in that war?
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 07:51 PM
Jul 2016

We were fighting Assad by being on Al quida's side, so we now support Assad against Daesh, who we got off the ground?

The working theory is we are trying to be on everyone's side so we can win, somehow.

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
5. Russia changed the facts on the ground in Syria
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 07:57 PM
Jul 2016

Our plan to put Saudi Arabia's pet Wahhabi Islamists in power seems on hold. Hopefully for good.

We need to start being serious about brokering a diplomatic solution to this civil war that protects everyone's rights, especially those of women and religious minorities.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
4. Huh. Maybe we should have called the Mujahadeen back. They held the Russians off in Afghanistan
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 07:55 PM
Jul 2016

at our exhortation, and with a few of our rockets, for years.

'Course, then we turned our back on them and created the space for the Taliban, but maybe they will forgive us.

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
6. Al Queda is already back
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:00 PM
Jul 2016

The Al Nusra jihadists are a faction of Al Queda, who were the mujahideen in Afghanistan.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
7. The Mujaheddin were jihadists a long damn time before the Taliban. They were, and
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:05 PM
Jul 2016

some still are, the finest horseman in the world, and traverse areas that would kill most people with relative ease.

Some joined up with others, including the Taliban, after we abandoned them to the poverty we found them in, or began to occupy their country.

uawchild

(2,208 posts)
8. You are absolutely correct in what you said
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:18 PM
Jul 2016

You are absolutely right, the historical use of the term is much older as you say.

"The modern term of mujahideen referring to guerrilla outfits radical Islamists originates in the 19th century opposition of the mountainous sect of hill men in Afghanistan who fought against British control (although initially to the British they were known as Sitana Fanatics)"

I was using it in the modern sense where it describes armed jihadist guerilla groups in general.

Sorry for my misunderstanding. You are right, Al Queda was only part of the mujahideen even using my version of the definition. That was sloppy of me. I mistook the point you were actually making. Again, sorry.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
9. No problem - people forget they fought and died on our behalf before we started
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 08:42 PM
Jul 2016

shooting at them.

People get used to thinking in new ways, and forget how we created what we have. They get defensive and testy, too.




 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
11. yep big FU to Zbigniew Brzezinski and Robert Gates ca. 1979
Thu Jul 14, 2016, 09:04 PM
Jul 2016

who kicked this all off in creating a pan-Arab mobile, portable killing/destabilisation machine with Wahabbic theology for binding/attraction appeal . Shit tonnes of multi decade blame from every side of the USA petrodollar empire.

 

Elmergantry

(884 posts)
14. the mujis we supported
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 09:32 AM
Jul 2016

That fought the ruskies started fighting amongst thwm selves. The pakis created the taliban from the madrassas(taliban means "student&quot to get a piece of the action and they seized most of the country. The mujis formed the northern alliance and held the northern part of the country. We teamed up with thwm after 911 to fight
The taliban. Granted its not that cut and dry but is the gist of what happened. But to claim that the taliban was the same as the mujis and we created them is false. Al queda was a free lance muji group created by bin laden and his millions who allied with the taliban after the ruskies left.

 

Elmergantry

(884 posts)
16. yes
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:00 AM
Jul 2016

Some al queda were former mujis. But al wueda was not us sponsored. Bin ladin didnt need our money and never liked us.

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
17. from my Guardian link plus a lot more
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 10:27 AM
Jul 2016
Frankenstein the CIA created

Mujahideen trained and funded by the US are among its deadliest foes, reports Jason Burke in Peshawar
Sunday 17 January 1999 05.42 GMT


When Clement Rodney Hampton-el, a hospital technician from Brooklyn, New Jersey, returned home from the war in Afghanistan in 1989, he told friends his only desire was to return. Though he had been wounded in the arm and leg by a Russian shell, he said he had failed. He had not achieved martyrdom in the name of Islam.

So he found a different theatre for his holy war and achieved a different sort of martyrdom. Three years ago, he was convicted of planning a series of massive explosions in Manhattan and sentenced to 35 years in prison.

Hampton-el was described by prosecutors as a skilled bomb-maker. It was hardly surprising. In Afghanistan he fought with the Hezb-i-Islami group of mujahideen, whose training and weaponry were mainly supplied by the CIA.

He was not alone. American officials estimate that, from 1985 to 1992, 12,500 foreigners were trained in bomb-making, sabotage and urban guerrilla warfare in Afghan camps the CIA helped to set up.

Since the fall of the Soviet puppet government in 1992, another 2,500 are believed to have passed through the camps. They are now run by an assortment of Islamic extremists, including Osama bin Laden, the world's most wanted terrorist.

Bin Laden arrived in Afghanistan from Saudi Arabia in 1979, aged 22. Though he saw a considerable amount of combat - around the eastern city of Jalalabad in March 1989 and, earlier, around the border town of Khost - his speciality was logistics.

From his base in the Pakistani city of Peshawar, he used his experience of the construction trade, and his money, to build a series of bases where the mujahideen could be trained by their Pakistani, American and, if some recent press reports are to be believed, British advisers.

One of the camps bin Laden built, known as Al-Badr, was the target of the American missile strikes against him last summer. Now it is used by Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, a Pakistan-based organisation that trains volunteers to fight in Kashmir.

Some of their recruits kidnapped and almost certainly killed a group of Western hostages a few years ago. The bases are still full of new volunteers, many Pakistanis. Most of those who were killed in last August's strikes were Pakistani.


snip



Al-Qaeda's origins and links
Tuesday, 20 July, 2004, 18:34 GMT 19:34 UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1670089.stm

Al-Qaeda, meaning "the base", was created in 1989 as Soviet forces withdrew from Afghanistan and Osama Bin Laden and his colleagues began looking for new jihads.

The organisation grew out of the network of Arab volunteers who had gone to Afghanistan in the 1980s to fight under the banner of Islam against Soviet Communism.

During the anti-Soviet jihad Bin Laden and his fighters received American and Saudi funding. Some analysts believe Bin Laden himself had security training from the CIA.

The "Arab Afghans", as they became known, were battle-hardened and highly motivated.

In the early 1990s Al-Qaeda operated in Sudan. After 1996 its headquarters and about a dozen training camps moved to Afghanistan, where Bin Laden forged a close relationship with the Taleban.

The US campaign in Afghanistan starting in late 2001 dispersed the organisation and drove it underground as its personnel were attacked and its bases and training camps destroyed.

Cells across the world

The organisation is thought to operate in 40 to 50 countries, not only in the Middle East and Asia but in North America and Europe.

In western Europe there have been known or suspected cells in London, Hamburg, Milan and Madrid. These have been important centres for recruitment, fundraising and planning operations.

snip





Bin Laden comes home to roost
His CIA ties are only the beginning of a woeful story


http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3340101/t/bin-laden-comes-home-roost/#.V4jvafl96Uk


NEW YORK, Aug. 24, 1998 — At the CIA, it happens often enough to have a code name: Blowback. Simply defined, this is the term describing an agent, an operative or an operation that has turned on its creators. Osama bin Laden, our new public enemy Number 1, is the personification of blowback. And the fact that he is viewed as a hero by millions in the Islamic world proves again the old adage: Reap what you sow.

Before you call me naive, let me concede some points. Yes, the West needed Josef Stalin to defeat Hitler. Yes, there were times during the Cold War when supporting one villain (Cambodia’s Lon Nol, for instance) would have been better than the alternative (Pol Pot). So yes, there are times when any nation must hold its nose and shake hands with the devil for the long-term good of the planet. But just as surely, there are times when the United States, faced with such moral dilemmas, should have resisted the temptation to act. Arming a multi-national coalition of Islamic extremists in Afghanistan during the 1980s - well after the destruction of the Marine barracks in Beirut or the hijacking of TWA Flight 847 - was one of those times.

snip

As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar - the MAK - which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.
What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.

Though he has come to represent all that went wrong with the CIA’s reckless strategy there, by the end of the Afghan war in 1989, bin Laden was still viewed by the agency as something of a dilettante - a rich Saudi boy gone to war and welcomed home by the Saudi monarchy he so hated as something of a hero.





CIA agent alleged to have met Bin Laden in July
French report claims terrorist leader stayed in Dubai hospital


Anthony Sampson
Thursday 1 November 2001 03.17 GMT

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism


Two months before September 11 Osama bin Laden flew to Dubai for 10 days for treatment at the American hospital, where he was visited by the local CIA agent, according to the French newspaper Le Figaro.
The disclosures are known to come from French intelligence which is keen to reveal the ambiguous role of the CIA, and to restrain Washington from extending the war to Iraq and elsewhere.


Bin Laden is reported to have arrived in Dubai on July 4 from Quetta in Pakistan with his own personal doctor, nurse and four bodyguards, to be treated in the urology department. While there he was visited by several members of his family and Saudi personalities, and the CIA.

The CIA chief was seen in the lift, on his way to see Bin Laden, and later, it is alleged, boasted to friends about his contact. He was recalled to Washington soon afterwards.

Intelligence sources say that another CIA agent was also present; and that Bin Laden was also visited by Prince Turki al Faisal, then head of Saudi intelligence, who had long had links with the Taliban, and Bin Laden. Soon afterwards Turki resigned, and more recently he has publicly attacked him in an open letter: "You are a rotten seed, like the son of Noah".
 

Elmergantry

(884 posts)
20. yes
Fri Jul 15, 2016, 11:01 AM
Jul 2016

We did support mujis some of them turned on us. But we didnt"create" them; they have been around for centuries

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