Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 05:56 PM Sep 2020

Memory sticks used to program Philly's voting machines were stolen from elections warehouse

Source: Philadelphia Inquirer

A laptop and several memory sticks used to program Philadelphia’s voting machines were stolen from a city warehouse in East Falls, city officials confirmed Wednesday, setting off a scramble among elections officials to investigate the theft and ensure the machines could not be compromised before Election Day. The equipment appeared to be taken this week, sources said. Officials immediately began checking to make sure none of the voting machines had been compromised while also working to contain the fallout for fear of how President Donald Trump and his allies might use the news to cast doubt on the integrity of the city’s elections.

They said the theft would not disrupt the election. “Since being informed of the incident, I have immediately committed to making necessary police resources available to investigate this incident and find the perpetrators. I have also committed to the City Commissioners additional resources to provide enhanced security at the warehouse going forward,” Mayor Jim Kenney said in a statement. “This matter should not deter Philadelphians from voting, nor from having confidence in the security of this election.”

Still, when contacted by The Inquirer, the commissioners and the Mayor’s Office initially refused to confirm the theft or that they had opened an investigation. They only did so after The Inquirer informed them that it would be reporting the theft based on sources who had been briefed on the matter but were not authorized to publicly discuss it. Trump, who trails former vice president Joe Biden in Pennsylvania polls, has sought to cast doubt on the election. That’s alarmed experts and voting rights advocates, who say the president is undermining public confidence in the electoral system and inappropriately politicizing the democratic process.

Many details surrounding the incident remained unclear Wednesday afternoon including exactly how the equipment was taken, whether there are any suspects, and details on how the missing technology might be used. Officials said there are multiple levels of security to prevent the equipment from being used maliciously, and a police investigation is ongoing. The equipment is believed to have been taken some time this week, though the exact date is not clear, according to two sources briefed on the matter who were not authorized to publicly discuss it. No other material appeared to have been taken, the sources said.

Read more: https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/philadelphia-election-trump-equipment-stolen-usb-laptop-20200930.html



This is why I say all this idiocy about "naked ballots" distracts from the fact that the Election Commissioners here in Philly rammed through the ES&S ExpressVote XL "touch screen" machines, despite months of protests from Voter groups and an investigation into the improprieties that went on with the procurement (where the company illegally lobbied them and none of them disclosed it).

My mail-in ballot arrived in the mail today. I will complete it and hand-deliver it when the satellite office near me is open and gets all the procedural bugs worked out (they were opening them in phases).

And hell, don't get Jim Kenney riled up 'cause he'll go all Biden on someone's ass. EVERY press conference, he throws a swipe in there, literally trying to hold back from reading riot acts and whatnot..
71 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Memory sticks used to program Philly's voting machines were stolen from elections warehouse (Original Post) BumRushDaShow Sep 2020 OP
We need hand counted paper ballots. N/T CottonBear Sep 2020 #1
I was just oging to say the same damned thing. NATIONWIDE. Period. Stop this insanity of... CurtEastPoint Sep 2020 #3
I'm a fellow Georgian, Curt, and I agree completely. N/T CottonBear Sep 2020 #11
Yep. We're Exhibit A when it comes to fucking up elections. There were folks waiting for hours CurtEastPoint Sep 2020 #30
Oh dear! That's not good. CottonBear Sep 2020 #32
My absentee ballot will be a fill-in-the-oval and then feed into a scanner on election day thing BumRushDaShow Sep 2020 #4
Yes - it is bad enough the votes are 'tallied electronically initially ArizonaLib Sep 2020 #10
KKKarl Rove stole two elections from the American people, and tried to steal a third in broad BComplex Oct 2020 #71
Are they still using electronic voting machine that doesn't leave a paper trail? LisaL Sep 2020 #15
See my post here for the "in person" machines that Philly has (along with some other PA counties) BumRushDaShow Sep 2020 #25
Yep, you vote by mail, you leave a paper trail. LisaL Sep 2020 #17
Hand counted paper ballots questionseverything Sep 2020 #28
Then we might never find out results of the election for real. LisaL Sep 2020 #38
I am old enough to remember everything being hand counted questionseverything Sep 2020 #42
Its not an issue if done properly. drray23 Oct 2020 #67
In a warehouse????? Are you f'n kidding me?????? WH?y were they not secured under lock and key niyad Sep 2020 #2
The warehouses where they keep all the machines - and we're talking several thousand machines BumRushDaShow Sep 2020 #7
What about all the brand new voting machines that were just installed FakeNoose Sep 2020 #8
My pic was just showing what the warehouse looks like. We HAVE the brand new hackable machines BumRushDaShow Sep 2020 #19
"Installed"? Igel Sep 2020 #37
Probably in inside job by someone who is authorized to be there. hedda_foil Sep 2020 #21
Most likely. Really hard to imagine why someone would want those sticks LisaL Sep 2020 #26
The thieves probably intended the theft to go unnoticed while they altered code rainin Sep 2020 #5
Inside job? TheRealNorth Sep 2020 #6
Well, in THAT case, Nyet Problemski! not_the_one Oct 2020 #68
If they were " stolen" there were no security camera showing who the culprit is? kimbutgar Sep 2020 #9
K&R +1,000,000,000 Way past time to rid US of computerized voting machines, tabulators, e-pollbooks diva77 Sep 2020 #12
I'm certain this isn't the only instance, or the only city. C Moon Sep 2020 #13
Absolutely. diva77 Sep 2020 #14
Memory sticks my ass CanonRay Sep 2020 #16
Machines are fine if they leave paper trail. LisaL Sep 2020 #18
I'm guessing that the machines you're referring to printed either a bar code or a QR code which, diva77 Sep 2020 #20
No, it was a ballot that I then had to put into a scanner. LisaL Sep 2020 #22
Did you hand mark the printed ballot? diva77 Sep 2020 #23
No, you use a touch screen to make selections. The machine then prints a ballot. LisaL Sep 2020 #24
We have the bigger model of that BumRushDaShow Sep 2020 #29
This election I am voting by mail so LisaL Sep 2020 #34
I'm literally looking at mine now (just opened the envelope) BumRushDaShow Sep 2020 #41
This is a BMD - ballot marking device diva77 Sep 2020 #31
Post 19 shows the "ballot" questionseverything Sep 2020 #35
At least it's something. LisaL Sep 2020 #36
I agree any paper is better than no paper questionseverything Sep 2020 #39
I don't think handcounts are a realistic option. LisaL Sep 2020 #40
Sort and stack goes pretty quickly questionseverything Sep 2020 #43
How are you going to sort and stack a ballot with multiple races on it? LisaL Sep 2020 #45
One race at a time questionseverything Sep 2020 #46
Check out this diagram. It's as easy as sorting laundry & u don't need secret software to do it diva77 Sep 2020 #48
At the very least, tell anyone who plans to vote on the BMDs to check their completed ballot very diva77 Oct 2020 #56
There goes PA.. stillcool Sep 2020 #27
They now have an option of voting by mail and voting absentee in person LisaL Sep 2020 #33
I was reading this the other day... stillcool Sep 2020 #44
It's sortof a perfect storm here in PA BumRushDaShow Sep 2020 #52
They have got to arrest the criminals rockfordfile Sep 2020 #47
Please stop - this is just spreading fear! TomVilmer Sep 2020 #49
If there are questionable results we need $$ to recount & do forensic analysis of machines diva77 Sep 2020 #50
I seen too many documentaries on Evoting to have any trust JonLP24 Sep 2020 #51
But since the whole process is controlled a bipartisan group... TomVilmer Sep 2020 #53
I just replied to your earlier post with a further excerpt from the article BumRushDaShow Oct 2020 #55
This board talked about evoting machines long before Trump JonLP24 Oct 2020 #57
This was a breaking news in our (Philly's) main newspaper BumRushDaShow Oct 2020 #54
There are lots of checks and balances even DeminPennswoods Oct 2020 #58
We have no idea who stole the laptop and the memory sticks. LisaL Oct 2020 #59
They are standard USB sticks and can be used on your PC TomVilmer Oct 2020 #63
There were demands that we NOT pick this vunerable system by security groups BumRushDaShow Oct 2020 #61
The point is that there is a paper trail DeminPennswoods Oct 2020 #65
I wear my reading glasses proudly right now BumRushDaShow Oct 2020 #66
Yes - but do not stop the boys wasting good time on this... TomVilmer Oct 2020 #64
NONE of that really matters! TomVilmer Oct 2020 #60
The issue here is that it doesn't need "mass changes" BumRushDaShow Oct 2020 #62
In 2016 trump "won" Wisconsin by less than 7 votes per precinct questionseverything Oct 2020 #69
This has russia's fingerprints all over it. BComplex Oct 2020 #70

CurtEastPoint

(18,552 posts)
3. I was just oging to say the same damned thing. NATIONWIDE. Period. Stop this insanity of...
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:03 PM
Sep 2020

10,000 different voting platforms, days/dates, places, ballots, machines. FEDERAL STANDARDS for FEDERAL ELECTIONS.

You wanna fuck up Bumfuck's Town Council, be my guest.

CurtEastPoint

(18,552 posts)
30. Yep. We're Exhibit A when it comes to fucking up elections. There were folks waiting for hours
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:22 PM
Sep 2020

yesterday for the special election for John Lewis's replacement. NO EXCUSES. And my county, Fulton, is the worst.

CottonBear

(21,596 posts)
32. Oh dear! That's not good.
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:26 PM
Sep 2020

I’m hoping that Clarke County continues to be a very competent Board of Elections, as they have in the past.

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
4. My absentee ballot will be a fill-in-the-oval and then feed into a scanner on election day thing
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:05 PM
Sep 2020

You can't do that with an ExpressVote XL machine if voting "in person".

THIS is why I will say it over and over and over. Anyone telling me to "Vote 'in person'. Because. USPS." - FUCK THAT.

The machines were first used in the general election in the fall of 2019 and that was my first time using one. If I can help it, NEVER AGAIN.

ArizonaLib

(1,242 posts)
10. Yes - it is bad enough the votes are 'tallied electronically initially
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:38 PM
Sep 2020

No one should forget that the Gore/Bush votes were not properly counted by reporters months after Bush was sworn in. It should all be done by hand.

With all of the death in this country, I can't believe memory sticks still hold the keys to electoral college votes.

I am still laughing at my memory of Karl Rove's disbelief that Ohio didn't go red. He was waiting for more red votes to show up electronically.

BComplex

(7,984 posts)
71. KKKarl Rove stole two elections from the American people, and tried to steal a third in broad
Sat Oct 3, 2020, 04:49 PM
Oct 2020

daylight. Now he's back at it.

Strangely enough, the bush family is voting for Biden; KKKarl Rove is a right wing white nationalist at heart, and he's in there with the trump group hustling up his little tricks all over the country.

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
25. See my post here for the "in person" machines that Philly has (along with some other PA counties)
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:06 PM
Sep 2020
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142592888#post19

They were steamrolled through by "naked ballot Deeley", despite concerns.

Both my sisters live in 2 different counties outside of Philly that do NOT use these machines. They have the "fill in the oval ballots" and feed it into a scanner and done. Their systems are different from each other but use the same concept.

But we have these damn machines here in the city and that is why I have my "no excuse absentee ballot" freshly delivered here today.

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
17. Yep, you vote by mail, you leave a paper trail.
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:49 PM
Sep 2020

You vote one one of those electronic machines without a paper trail-how exactly is that secure?

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
38. Then we might never find out results of the election for real.
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:44 PM
Sep 2020

There are multiple races on each ballot. How long would it take hand count all of those?

drray23

(7,587 posts)
67. Its not an issue if done properly.
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 01:23 PM
Oct 2020

In France which has 70 millions people but has 75 % participation for elections yielding about 35K ballots, its counted by the next day.
Each poll location counts it, reports it up the chain and so on. Yes, its less ballots than in the US but its also less polling locations and less workers.
Likewise, Germany counts by hand and manages to do it in a timely manner. As a matter of fact most modern democracies do it by hand.

niyad

(112,435 posts)
2. In a warehouse????? Are you f'n kidding me?????? WH?y were they not secured under lock and key
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:02 PM
Sep 2020

in. . .oh. . .a SAFE, maybe??

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
7. The warehouses where they keep all the machines - and we're talking several thousand machines
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:20 PM
Sep 2020

(because there are 1692 divisions (precincts) and each division usually gets 2 machines) are obviously normally "locked" and "secured".

This is a pic of one of the warehouses (the machines in the below pic were the older ones that just go replaced last fall) -



Guess we'll have to find out if it was a careless "accident" of someone who had left it unsecured after starting to work on programming the machines, or maybe someone did "break in" to wherever the programming laptops were.

FakeNoose

(32,356 posts)
8. What about all the brand new voting machines that were just installed
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:24 PM
Sep 2020

The Governor got all new voting machines that are free of the old messed up software.
Am I right? It should be easy to initialize the new machines, I would think.





BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
19. My pic was just showing what the warehouse looks like. We HAVE the brand new hackable machines
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:55 PM
Sep 2020




And used them in November 2019 for the first time.

This is the stupid "ballot" (a blank sheet with the Division info on top) -



It then prints your selections once you are done with the touchscreen but I would have no idea what those barcodes translate to -



hedda_foil

(16,368 posts)
21. Probably in inside job by someone who is authorized to be there.
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:59 PM
Sep 2020

This is stunningly scary because it means the machines can be maliciously reprogrammed at any time before they're received at the polling places. (After that, it can still be done, but with a lot more difficulty.)

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
26. Most likely. Really hard to imagine why someone would want those sticks
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:13 PM
Sep 2020

if they didn't plan to do something malicious.

rainin

(3,010 posts)
5. The thieves probably intended the theft to go unnoticed while they altered code
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:11 PM
Sep 2020

on the sticks and returned them to be used.

kimbutgar

(20,882 posts)
9. If they were " stolen" there were no security camera showing who the culprit is?
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:25 PM
Sep 2020

But that said I’m glad they found out now rather than on Election Day when those memory sticks were Compromised . I think the reason MF45 hates mail in ballots Is he was counting on his buddy Putin helping him change the votes tallies on those paperless machines. Now that won’t happen

diva77

(7,606 posts)
12. K&R +1,000,000,000 Way past time to rid US of computerized voting machines, tabulators, e-pollbooks
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:40 PM
Sep 2020

and the vendors, lobbyists, technicians, handlers, contractors, insurance, corporations and dark money people who "elect" elections officials who certify & purchase this forsaken equipment.

Hand marked paper ballots, hand counted at the PRECINCT level (no precinct to exceed 2000 registered voters) with PUBLIC oversight ON ELECTION DAY is the BEST way. There is no better way. Period.

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
18. Machines are fine if they leave paper trail.
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:51 PM
Sep 2020

In my precinct I voted (in some special election) on a machine that printed out a ballot in the end and that ballot went into the scanner.

diva77

(7,606 posts)
20. I'm guessing that the machines you're referring to printed either a bar code or a QR code which,
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:56 PM
Sep 2020

unfortunately, does not show voter intent. Sure, it may have a list of who you voted for printed out, but it's what's in the code that matters. And, just like when you find a discrepancy between what a price on the shelf is with what the scanner at the cash register reads, the same discrepancy can occur between what you think you're recording as your vote, and what the bar code or QR code reader records.

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
22. No, it was a ballot that I then had to put into a scanner.
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 06:59 PM
Sep 2020

It's called express vote machine.
"The paper-based ExpressVote Universal Voting System uses touch-screen technology that produces a paper record for tabulation. As a marker, the ExpressVote handles the entire marking process, eliminating unclear marks and the need for interpretation of the voter’s mark."
https://www.essvote.com/products/expressvote/

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
24. No, you use a touch screen to make selections. The machine then prints a ballot.
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:03 PM
Sep 2020

You can look it over, make sure your selection are correct, and then put it into a scanner.
I posted a link explaining how it works. But it was a while ago and my recollection of what exactly it printed is a little hazy.

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
29. We have the bigger model of that
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:18 PM
Sep 2020

where you get a blank strip of paper as a "ballot", but we can't even hand-carry the completed one to a scanner because it gets sucked into the machine where it stays and you have to hunch over to read it through a chute to verify. And even though the machine prints out "human-readable" text of your selections, it ALSO prints out barcodes that are what get read by the scanner and you have NO IDEA what that barcode says.

The only way to "verify" if there is a problem discovered is to go back and hand-tally based on the actual "text" and ignore the barcodes and the hope is that "text" doesn't get faded or smeared away.

(sorry to rant and rave like a crazy woman because this is madness and I feel like turbinetree )

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
34. This election I am voting by mail so
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:34 PM
Sep 2020

I will get an actual ballot and handmark it.
Which avoids using these funky machines.

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
41. I'm literally looking at mine now (just opened the envelope)
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:48 PM
Sep 2020


Wanted to make sure they sent me the correct ballot for my Ward and Division and also noted that it is a 2-sided one too (we have 4 ballot questions that I had seen earlier when I found a copy of a sample ballot), plus made sure that both the "secret ballot" envelope and outer certification/mailing envelopes were there, plus it had instructions and descriptions about what the ballot questions were about, etc. It was a hefty pack.

diva77

(7,606 posts)
31. This is a BMD - ballot marking device
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:24 PM
Sep 2020

Here is a recent article pointing out the hazards of using such machines:
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/09/23/donald-trumps-favorite-voting-machines/

Donald Trump’s Favorite Voting Machines

Ballot-marking devices in key swing states could give him the perfect excuse to contest the election

by Art Levine
September 23, 2020


SNIP
The actual nightmare scenario involves the integrity and ultimate verifiability of the vote tallies generated by the machines. Recall the BMDs’ printer-generated vote summaries (technically called “scanning ballots” under Georgia law). Voters can review them, though they’re not required to, prior to turning them in for tabulation. The summaries themselves aren’t used to determine election winners and losers; instead, there is a bar code printed on the paper summary, or, as in Georgia, a QR code. Unintelligible to the voter, these codes are read by vote-counting machines.

What guarantees the integrity of these tallies? How would voters know that the BMD software accurately recorded and translated their choices into those codes and onto the paper ballot receipts? And who or what do they trust if there are meaningful discrepancies between the codes and the paper receipts?

As Emily Levy, founder of Scrutineers, a new networking group for the election integrity movement, puts it, citizens should be asking election officials in universal-use BMD states this very pointed question: “When you are called upon to prove that these election results are correct, how is it that you think you’re going to be able to do that?”

Let’s say the November election is close, and Donald Trump comes up short in Pennsylvania or Georgia or North Carolina, or all of them, and loses the Electoral College vote. He has already sent every possible signal that he would contest such a result as fraudulent, would refuse to concede, and would litigate (or worse) to stay in office. It would make perfect sense for him and his lawyers to seize on the ambiguities of BMDs to argue that the voting was rigged and illegitimate. And Democrats would be hard-pressed to prove Trump wrong—especially since some of their own elected officials and allies have been relatively quiet about the BMDs’ shortcomings, and in some cases have even been at the forefront of pushing for the machines’ use.
SNIP

questionseverything

(9,631 posts)
35. Post 19 shows the "ballot"
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:34 PM
Sep 2020

The bar codes are what the scanner counts,you have no way of knowing what the scanner is actually recording

It is a system that requires trusting the software.


It is not a proper check

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
36. At least it's something.
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:37 PM
Sep 2020

In 2012, I voted on machines that had no paper trail of any kind. Try to do a recount on those babies.
Anyhow, this election I am voting by mail on a real ballot.

questionseverything

(9,631 posts)
39. I agree any paper is better than no paper
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:45 PM
Sep 2020

But we need to be able to easily access that paper for hand counts

scanners can be incorrect too

In Wisconsin and Florida a recount means running the ballots through the same scanners when hand counts are what are needed

questionseverything

(9,631 posts)
43. Sort and stack goes pretty quickly
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:57 PM
Sep 2020

Getting an accurate result is much more important than getting a quick result

questionseverything

(9,631 posts)
46. One race at a time
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 08:23 PM
Sep 2020

Before the mid sixties every election every race was hand counted

It isn’t rocket science

I don’t understand why you are advocating for paper ballots if you think they are impossible to count

In germany Every race is hand counted

diva77

(7,606 posts)
56. At the very least, tell anyone who plans to vote on the BMDs to check their completed ballot very
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 01:39 AM
Oct 2020

carefully for correct votes & all the races listed before turning it in. Tell them to request a new ballot if there is something missing or incorrect.

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
33. They now have an option of voting by mail and voting absentee in person
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:33 PM
Sep 2020

Which means they get an actual ballot. Hopefully a lot of people do that.

stillcool

(32,626 posts)
44. I was reading this the other day...
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 07:59 PM
Sep 2020

not being in PA, it's hard to flush the truth out of a lot of the news. It seems the RNC, and the Trump administration are just toying with the Department of State, and not letting up. Hope it works out.

ail-in ballot law in Pennsylvania has driven out nearly a quarter of state's top election officials
The race in the battleground state is expected to be tight and top Pennsylvania elections officials have already said not to expect results on election night.

Sept. 19, 2020, 11:32 AM EDT / Updated Sept. 19, 2020, 12:09 PM EDT
By Maura Barrett and Matt Wargo
PHILADELPHIA, Pa. — More than a dozen counties in Pennsylvania have seen election directors or deputy directors leave in the last year since a new law was passed to accommodate no-excuse mail-in voting across the state, three county officials familiar with the movement tell NBC News.

“The general assembly, the courts, and the governor have created a s---show of an election. Nobody truly understands what’s what,” one county election official said, “nobody has a grasp.”
------------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple officials across the state point to the constant changes on how to run the election during the pandemic, in addition to delays due to legal battles. For example, counties couldn’t start printing, testing, and mailing out their ballots until the list was certified late Thursday, after a hold up due to a lawsuit over whether Green Party candidates could be on the ballot.
-------------------

“Everybody’s had it,” one county election official said. “We don’t get paid enough, we’re working 15 or 16 hours days, and [the Department of State] keeps changing everything and so we have to keep throwing stuff away. It’s a waste of our office’s resources. It’s just insane. I’ve been through tough elections before and never seen anything like this ever. And with the new laws on top of it, it’s unreal.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/mail-ballot-law-pennsylvania-has-driven-out-nearly-quarter-state-n1240504

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
52. It's sortof a perfect storm here in PA
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 10:17 PM
Sep 2020

because we had the issue of 2016 and foreign interference and also the issue of having many if not most of our counties with old equipment (here they were 20+ years old) and/or ballot scanners, so a directive was made by our (D) governor around 2018 that every county go about getting "verified vote"-compatible machines to replace their old systems, and one of the main criteria was that there had to be a "paper trail".

That's when you basically had 67 counties all go their own way, with some picking the same systems but others that originally had the systems their neighbors had, now going off on their own. And it all had to be in place by this current year's (2020) general election. All made sure that they actually got up and running by last year's general so they would have a couple dry runs (a general and a primary) on the books to shake out the bugs in the processes.

But then the state legislature amazingly passed a "no-excuse" absentee ballot option (in 2019), out of nowhere, which was amazing but was not expected to be used much except by people who might be in rural areas with extended travel to get to a polling place, or house-bound folks without transportation or not able to physically go to a poll, where this allowed them to still vote (although I think the regular absentee has a provision for health reasons) .

And then along comes COVID-19, and the whole mail voting option, which was thankfully and conveniently in place, just exploded in usage because of shutdown orders and poll location consolidation. Here in Philly, we usually had 800+ polling places to cover almost 1700 polling Divisions. But because of the concerns expressed by poll workers of contracting the virus (most are retired and often elderly) and due to many polling locations being too small to distance in and/or were located in some senior facilities, the polling options were cut from 800 down to 150, which was insane, and so we went from about a few % mail-ins (regular absentee) to upwards of 50% vote-by-mail ("no excuse absentee ballot" ), and they just couldn't handle the volume, with limited staff and a new process for voters who had never voted by absentee ballot before (I know I had back in the late '70s/early '80s when I was away at college for 4 years so I was familiar with it - at least the old system).

The problem then is that you have a GOP-controlled legislature here that initially did the right thing passing some kind of election reform, but then when 45 said NO! they suddenly had to "obey" and now are attempting to completely reverse everything they did before our elections got politicized by the WH.

TomVilmer

(1,832 posts)
49. Please stop - this is just spreading fear!
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 09:29 PM
Sep 2020

People might steal Memory sticks because they can sell and use them. To change an election is way more complicated. Best trick for Putin and Trump's people are to spread stories like this, and erode trust in the system. Please do not help them!

diva77

(7,606 posts)
50. If there are questionable results we need $$ to recount & do forensic analysis of machines
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 09:40 PM
Sep 2020

We are stuck with these machines for now, so for security, we need to win by a landslide by sheer numbers of Dem voters since the margin of error can be compromised with software & hardware; but we also need to have a team of cybersecurity specialists ready in case they are needed as well.

It makes no sense to say nothing and hope for the best when we already know that Republicans will stop at nothing to "win."

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
51. I seen too many documentaries on Evoting to have any trust
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 09:43 PM
Sep 2020

They are easily hackable machines. That is well documented.

I recommend Hack the Vote on HBO.

TomVilmer

(1,832 posts)
53. But since the whole process is controlled a bipartisan group...
Wed Sep 30, 2020, 11:52 PM
Sep 2020

... partly appointed by the Democrats and Republicans, I do actually trust that part of the process. Also - I have studied how the voting numbers are being counted, and it does not leave much room for cheating. A very visible change would be obvious, and a smaller one very hard to arrange. Plus it would need a lot of people visiting all the counties without being seen, and then bypassing the obligatory fail check of the machines. Etc...

The counting is OK, but the political system is totally fucked up. Leave the rumors about faulty voting machines and a rigged election to Trump. That is his strategy to spread. He does not really need to f*ck up any voting systems, your debate here shows his propaganda is working just fine.


BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
55. I just replied to your earlier post with a further excerpt from the article
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 12:35 AM
Oct 2020

but the laptop and USB sticks that were stolen belonged to an "onsite employee of "ES&S", NOT a city official or anyone to do with the election officials or parties.

Northampton County PA has the same machines and had issues last year with theirs.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
57. This board talked about evoting machines long before Trump
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 02:13 AM
Oct 2020

Like I said watch Hack the Vote.

Trump has conspiracy theories about mail in ballots but the lack of security with machines is well documented.

Are you aware of the Georgia's governor's race? The machines conveniently went down in blue areas. This was covered in Hack the Vote. Stacey Abrams had the race stolen from her -- this is not a Trump issue.

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
54. This was a breaking news in our (Philly's) main newspaper
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 12:23 AM
Oct 2020

so it's not like it's from some "blog site" or facebook or twitter post. We have had several months of "eroding trust in the USPS" and the latest bullshit about "naked ballots", along with people demanding that we "vote in person" - mostly done by people who simply stand at a table and fill out ovals on a ballot and feed that into a scanner. Not everyone has that type of system for "in person" voting. Some of us have hackable machines that were fought against by a number of security groups before they were purchased anyway.

I know that the Inquirer pay-walls itself (possibly after a few views) - but here is some more info from the article -

[snip]

Though it remains unclear when the equipment was stolen, sources briefed on the investigation said the items vanished this week. The laptop belonged to an on-site employee for the company that supplies the machines. It and the USB drives were the only items believed to have been taken.

[snip]

Custodio, the deputy to Deeley, said officials ensured the stolen laptop had been disabled remotely after the theft was discovered to prevent it from being used and added that it “did not have any of our election material on it.”

His statement did not address the stolen memory sticks, which are used to program the machines in advance of an election, including setting the design of the ballots.

The flash drives are encrypted to prevent tampering, and specifically matched with individual voting machines, said a spokesperson for Election Systems & Software, the voting machine vendor, adding: “Upon programming, these encryption keys ‘marry’ the USB with the machine, and if placed in another machine, it will cause an error and the machine will not work.”

https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/philadelphia-election-trump-equipment-stolen-usb-laptop-20200930.html


The problem is that the Election Commissioners may have been compromised based on an audit that the City Controller's office did on the whole bidding and procurement process last summer (2019).

The other problem, based on the excerpt above, is that ES&S is pooh-poohing and obfuscating about the potential security issues by describing how each USB stick is apparently linked to a specific machine and how it would cause an "error" if placed into a different machine. But THAT is an answer to a different and more minor outcome, where the bigger problem is whether it could be tampered with and put back into the SAME machine.

If you have say 4 missing USB drives that are assigned to 4 voting machines, and if your typical total number of votes on those machines may be (for a high turnout Presidential election) say 500 - 600 votes, then you could potentially skim several hundred from just those 4 machines and that's all you need. And just do that at every county that has this type (or similar) machine (which isn't that many in this state) and you got yourself maybe several thousand votes that were flipped.

Plus there could be (or have already been) bit by bit copies of them made that could reveal the type of encryption that was deployed on them to allow research on reprogramming them in later elections.

DeminPennswoods

(15,246 posts)
58. There are lots of checks and balances even
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 05:11 AM
Oct 2020

if a voting maching was somehow "hacked". There are decades of precinct by precinct voting data collected by both parties. If there was suddenly a precinct that showed an anomaly from previous elections, that would be noticed right away. Even if there aren't as many polling places, the precincts will stay the same and the number of voters in each precinct will stay the same, roughly 1,000. My old precint shared a space with 2 other precincts. We had 4 voting machines, the other precincts had 2 apiece. Further more, the same voters generally turn out so the historical voting data should be fairly stable.

JMHO, but a lot of needless worrying here. There's really no reason to suspect a company employee who took his/the company's own laptop and USB sticks is some nefarious plot. In my current precinct, we voted on touch screens for years, there were no issues. After Wolf mandated all voting equipment must leave a paper trail, we got new optical scanners, so we vote on a regular paper ballot, then take it to the scanner, feed it in ourselves, our ballot is scanned, votes recorded and then you hear a satisfying soft plunk as the completed ballot drops into the secured ballot box beneath the scanner.

LisaL

(44,962 posts)
59. We have no idea who stole the laptop and the memory sticks.
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 05:21 AM
Oct 2020

Is there really a market for voting sticks to be used for some innocent purpose?

TomVilmer

(1,832 posts)
63. They are standard USB sticks and can be used on your PC
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 07:13 AM
Oct 2020
ES&S ExpressVote XL uses a standard Delkin Compact Flash Memory Card.

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
61. There were demands that we NOT pick this vunerable system by security groups
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 05:34 AM
Oct 2020

in addition to this also apparently being one of the most expensive systems of the ones that were considered. The ExpressXL is NOT a "regular paper ballot" that gets hand-marked and then goes into a scanner. The voting machine prints the "human readable" text of the selections (made through the touchscreens) onto the ballot, and then assigns and prints barcode(s) supposedly associated with those selections that are not "human verifiable". Once that ballot is in the machine during the voting process, it stays in the machine and you have to strain to read what it prints out to "verify" before it then gets sucked completely in.

Both my sisters vote with optical scanner systems, the one in Delaware county uses the Hart Verity 2.3.4 Voting System and the one in Montgomery County uses the Dominion Voting Systems .

I WISH we had selected either one of these types of systems but we didn't because the Commissioners were lobbied by ES&S, who also donated to their campaigns per the City Controller's audit of the procurement process, and neither party divulged that. I.e., there were irregularities that were hand-waved away but by the time that audit/investigation happened, it was a few months before the 2019 general election, the machines had already been purchased, and they couldn't "start over".

This is why I have my mail-in ballot sitting 1 ft from me and that is what I will use to vote.

DeminPennswoods

(15,246 posts)
65. The point is that there is a paper trail
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 10:39 AM
Oct 2020

I have old eyes needing reading glasses, too, and might have chosen the same route as you have by voting by absentee ballot.

I was actually an election judge during the transition from the old lever machines to the new touch pad ones. There was a lot of advertising done to voters and sample new voting machines were set up around the city for voters to practice on. At the first election they were used, all of us poll workers were expecting to have to do a lot of OJT and prepared for it, but low and behold, we had to do very little because most of the voters in the precincts at my polling place had done their homework and knew how to use the new machines. Know what the biggest issue was? Exiting the voting booth after voting as voters were used to having the curtain automatically opened when they pulled the vote lever over. They didn't know what to do when the curtains remained closed when the pressed the vote button.

I have a lot of confidence voters know how to use the voting machines and most will be able to read their choices.

And if you want to talk about changing a few hundred votes here and there, it would have been easy to do on the old lever machines since only 1 person went behind the machine to read the vote tally while the rest of the poll workers each had a copy of the official results sheet on which to transcribe the number read out from the back. Once the machine was closed up, no one was going to re-open it to verify tallies.

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
66. I wear my reading glasses proudly right now
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 11:54 AM
Oct 2020


But here, we went from the lever machines (that I sorely miss because they were like the "phone booths of yesteryear" ) to the flat membrane panel machines - which were not touch screens. This is what they looked like (the Danaher Shouptronic 1242) -



We and the rim counties of Philly got those DRE machines in 2002. Even with being considered "paperless" (meaning no 1-1 piece of paper for each voter), those machines DID print out a long sheet of paper with a tally. And since they weren't connectable to the internet, they were also not really hackable (at least remotely). The machines were pretty straight forward and the only "hiccups" were as you noted, people confused about the green "Vote" button (the old lever would "cast the vote" AND open the machine's curtain where the "Vote" button wasn't doing anything to the curtain - took me a bit to get used to that).

The good thing about that switch away from the literal "voting booth" though, was that the then-"new" machines were adjustable and could be lowered to be handicapped accessible (for people in wheel chairs) and that obviously could not be done with the old lever machines.

The old lever machines and the membrane panel DREs at least had something that was tactile (I miss the click click click of the little vote levers and the dimple-button feel when you pushed the panel). The digital machines have no tactile feel at all.

When I used the ExpressXL machine for the first time last November, I stood in line for almost an hour with only about 6 people in front of me because people at the time of day I went (mid-morning, which is usually the slowest time of the day and is when the elderly retired voted), were completely lost, not only having to use the touch screen and figuring out how to get to the next page to continue voting for another set of selections, but even trying to figure out what to do with the "blank" ballot - the "non-standard sized" thin strip of paper that had to be inserted into machine the correct way with the correct side up and the notch in the correct corner. The lever machines and DRE panels had everything on one screen, the ExpressVote XL did not.

They offered plenty of "practice" opportunities last year for these machines (IF people had transportation to get to the sessions) but it was irrelevant for an aged, non-computer literate population, who could probably be able to figure out something like a "copy machine"-looking thing for a hand-marked ballot, which a ballot scanner might resemble, and this nonsense.

There are literally tens of thousands of households in this city that have no internet access whatsover, so they have no computers at home. THAT was the nightmare scenario that unfolded for Philly doing "remote" schooling where they had to scramble and cajole Comcast to provide that access "for free" and they had to purchase and hand out 40,000 chromebooks (yes, 40,000 chromebooks - a number that is the size of the population of many "medium-sized" towns) to families with kids who HAD no computers at home. They may have "pre-paid" cell phone and cell service but doing schooling on a phone is a no-go.

When people say there is a "digital divide", it's not just a "slogan".

TomVilmer

(1,832 posts)
64. Yes - but do not stop the boys wasting good time on this...
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 07:21 AM
Oct 2020

It is not like there are any real voting problems out there to fight, like:

Voter ID requirements
Lack of language access
Voter roll purges
Polling place closures/consolidations
Lack of funding for elections
Provisional ballot requirements
Reduced early voting
Reduced voting hours
Poorly trained poll workers
Partisan election administrators
Creation of at-large local offices to dilute minority vote


Nothing to do with those items - let's all spread unlikely conspiracies!

TomVilmer

(1,832 posts)
60. NONE of that really matters!
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 05:32 AM
Oct 2020

I have been fighting electronically assisted voting for years, because they obscure the voting process. And I am totally sure that they can be made to cheat, but I see possibility in how they are actually used where this can be done on a broad scale without easily showing.

As you can see here, there is no way the Philadelphia machines ES&S ExpressVote XL could deliver a different vote than it has show you - even if you tamper the programming. You also would need big and obvious mechanical changes:
https://www.votespa.com/readytovote/Pages/Philadelphia-County-Voting-System.aspx

Best way to tamper those system is to make you believe voting is futile.

The whole election system is rigged - but I believe in the actual voting process!

BumRushDaShow

(127,320 posts)
62. The issue here is that it doesn't need "mass changes"
Thu Oct 1, 2020, 05:55 AM
Oct 2020

it only needs "dozens of flips here and dozens of flips there" - not enough to cause red flags, but enough, collectively, to make it "close" and cause more chaos.

The issue is the barcodes that get generated.



There is a site that attempts to "deconstruct" the barcodes - https://securiosa.com/posts/deconstructing_expressvote_records.html

And discussion on how ballots can be altered and how barcodes could be altered.

Just scanning that article on the ballot and its paper, the fact that the ballots are "thermal paper" - that means they can fade over time, which is even more a nightmare.

I have my fill-in-the-oval ballot for "no excuse absentee" (vote by mail) sitting right next to me. This would eventually get removed from the envelope and fed into a scanner - just like most other "verifiable" systems, but unlike those ExpressXL systems.

There was just a local news radio report that ran that gave some stats on PA's voting and mention that so far, 2.3 million Pennsylvanians have applied for either type of absentee ballot - https://www.radio.com/kywnewsradio/news/state/pa-ramps-up-effort-to-educate-voters-dispel-misinformation

Don't assume that what is being described by me and others in this thread is being done as a RW effort to "not trust the voting process". It is done to EDUCATE and be aware and not blindly put your head in the sand when you do have nefarious actors out there and processes that can, should or must be improved.

questionseverything

(9,631 posts)
69. In 2016 trump "won" Wisconsin by less than 7 votes per precinct
Sat Oct 3, 2020, 04:29 PM
Oct 2020

In Michigan it was less than 3votes per precinct.

So yes small changes can make huge differences


Ty for all the information you have brought to this thread

BComplex

(7,984 posts)
70. This has russia's fingerprints all over it.
Sat Oct 3, 2020, 04:44 PM
Oct 2020

This is what they said they would do, and this is what they're doing.

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Memory sticks used to pro...