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Tue Jan 24, 2023, 04:36 PM

Tanks for Ukraine: Germany to send Leopard 2s and allow others to export - reports

Source: BBC News

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has decided to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, and allow other countries to do the same, reports in Germany say.

Leopard 2s are made in Germany and Berlin needs to approve their export.

Germany has been hesitant to send its own - or allow other nations to send theirs - over concerns it could escalate the conflict with Russia.

Now, after international pressure, Mr Scholz has decided to send at least 14 Leopard 2s, German outlets say.

Read more: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64391272?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA



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Reply Tanks for Ukraine: Germany to send Leopard 2s and allow others to export - reports (Original post)
Algernon Moncrieff Jan 24 OP
sinkingfeeling Jan 24 #1
GB_RN Jan 24 #2
PortTack Jan 24 #3
Bernardo de La Paz Jan 24 #7
Aristus Jan 24 #4
ColinC Jan 24 #5
Kennah Jan 24 #19
ColinC Jan 25 #21
patphil Jan 24 #6
SergeStorms Jan 24 #8
LudwigPastorius Jan 24 #11
SergeStorms Jan 24 #15
johnnyfins Jan 24 #9
orangecrush Jan 24 #12
LudwigPastorius Jan 24 #13
Igel Jan 24 #17
IronLionZion Jan 25 #20
orangecrush Jan 24 #10
myohmy2 Jan 24 #14
orangecrush Jan 24 #16
littlemissmartypants Jan 25 #23
orangecrush Jan 25 #25
Warpy Jan 24 #18
littlemissmartypants Jan 25 #22
Layzeebeaver Jan 25 #24
Ray Bruns Jan 25 #26


Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 04:47 PM

2. Hot Damn!

I'd be willing to bet that we've been training Ukrainian tankers on the M1-Abrams for months now, and that we might see a "decision" to send some of those - fitting with the timeline of the end of training for tank/maintenance crews. I read yesterday that the Biden Administration has been rethinking their stance on (not) sending the M1-Abrams...and this also would fit that timeline (about a year of total training). Read into this what you will.

Edit to add: From the WSJ: US Leans Towards Providing Abrams Tanks To Ukraine
From Daily Kos, on that article:

On Tuesday morning, The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the United States is “leaning” toward sending M1A2 main battle tanks Abrams tanks to Ukraine, with an announcement expected this week.

The announcement would reportedly come as part of a deal in which Germany would also send its Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine and would include Germany approving the release of Leopard tanks to be sent by other nations. The deal would break the deadlock created when Germany refused to release the Leopard tanks even after the U.K. announced that it was providing a company of its Challenger 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine.

The U.S. has previously been resistant to the idea of sending the Abrams, for a long series of reasons, including the difficulties in supporting the tank and its impact of Ukraine’s already burdened logistics. Pentagon officials have repeatedly stated that they feel the M1A2 isn’t well suited to Ukraine, for reasons ranging from the fuel to the long time needed to train on the vehicles to the lack of any nearby facilities to deal with major repairs.

However, Biden reportedly shifted his position following a Jan. 17 call to German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. If sending the Abrams is the only way to break through the current roadblock, Biden appears ready to take that step.


Emphasis mine. The M1A2 is the most up-to-date version of the Abrams tank (previous iterations being the M1, and M1-A1).

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 05:07 PM

3. Thank the gods!! This investigation needs to stay focused on the one person that took them

Willfully and with intent. But…it also needs to shift to the national archives keeping of said documents. Seems they fell down on the job

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 05:08 PM

4. Those poor Russian tankers aren't going to know what hit them.

Of course, they always have the choice to scurry back across the border to the Motherland.

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Response to ColinC (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 11:44 PM

19. Saab Gripens probably make more sense

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Response to Kennah (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 02:05 AM

21. Okay yeah, let's do that

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 06:42 PM

8. I wish it weren't necessary....

but Ukraine needs a level playing field with Russia. I wish Putin would stop this madness. He stands zero chance of defeating Ukraine now, and all he's doing is ending the lives of his own people and Ukrainians. His big macho ego won't allow him to stop. It's madness 😠.

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Response to SergeStorms (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 06:53 PM

11. My fear is that the west is gaming this war with the assumption that...

Putin wants to ensure the survival of Russia and himself.

I hope the Pentagon and NATO are at least considering the possibility that he is terminally ill and feels that he has nothing to lose.

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Response to LudwigPastorius (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 08:39 PM

15. I think he's being watched....

by a few generals or government officials. The moment he starts getting ideas about ending the world some of them will step in and stop him. Putin probably has children all over Russia. I don't think he'd be too cavalier with their lives.

At least I hope not. 🙄

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 06:51 PM

9. Wait...

How is Germany allowed to make tanks? WTF? Am I living in an alternate reality right now? I know that they have been a democratic state for a long time, but REALLY????? Look at the pic. The Iron Cross????????????

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Response to johnnyfins (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 06:56 PM

12. Dude!

Where have you been?
We gave them Lockheed Starfighters to fight the Russians back in the 60's!

One truly badass (and dangerous!) aircraft, if I say so myself!




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Response to johnnyfins (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 07:08 PM

13. Germany has had tanks since it joined NATO in 1955.


And, the Iron Cross was a Prussian/German military symbol 120 years before the Nazis came along.

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Response to johnnyfins (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:24 PM

17. Yeah, the iron cross.

It existed before the Nazis warped it (could say the same thing about WWI) and after.

In the early '70s my 6th grade field trip was to DC. Smithsonian and nearby points. Wanted a souvenir, bought a big blue cross. Hadn't seen an iron cross. Little demons didn't jump up to say, "Ha! You're a Nazi." My father looked askance at it for two reasons: He fought in WWII (okay, he was on the way to fight when Japan surrendered and so his minesweeper checked Tokyo Harbor and he was on deck for the signing of the treaty ... the Fitch). But mostly he looked askance at the blue thing because it was at the time for young people associated more with being a hippie.

Somehow the last bit has no real Internet memory that I can find in 90 seconds' Googling. Then again it was an eddy in a backwater of the river of discourse.

But there's this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr_Cross_of_Honour_for_Valour .

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Response to johnnyfins (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 12:17 AM

20. A lot of things existed before the Nazis ruined it

and will continue to exist long after



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

West Germany was allowed to militarize in 1955 to defend against the Soviets in East Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr#Cold_War:_1955%E2%80%931990

Next you'll be shocked to find out about Japan's military

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 06:52 PM

10. What a nice present for Putin!

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 07:10 PM

14. excellent...

...however...

...how are the Ukrainians ever going to operate, maintain, supply and repair this hodge-podge of Western/NATO military equipment...?

...they must be ambidextrous...

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Response to myohmy2 (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:08 PM

16. The German tanks


Are very user friendly, from what I hear.

That's why they prefer them, much shorter training


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Response to orangecrush (Reply #16)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 02:46 AM

23. The leopards are smaller, faster and more fuel efficient. IIRC, that's why Ukraine wants them. ❤️

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Jan 24, 2023, 09:45 PM

18. The fight was lost once Duda pretty much told Germany to go jump in a lake

because Poland was sending them, period. Now Germany will have to do things: save face and preserve their market share in heavy tanks. The UK might be snapping at their heels.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 04:18 AM

24. 14... Fourteen....

Seriously, the west needs to get off its arse and go all-in on the equipment.

How about a full battalion on Leopard 2? rather than a couple of platoons.

Frankly, Ukraine need tanks, and anti-tank weapons as well.

Russia is on a knife edge at the moment - if we provide the necessary tools, the Ukrainian military can do wonders.

Just do it already!

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Response to Layzeebeaver (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 25, 2023, 09:00 AM

26. First off, you're taking about an expensive piece of equipment.

Second: Germany has to keep it’s own stockpile full. If takes a lot of time and money to build a western tank.

Western tanks are much more armored and sophisticated than the T72 and T80. It takes time to train not only the crews but an entire unit to work with each other. That’s why this decision should have been made last year. Delaying it only continues to drag out the war.

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