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Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:46 AM

Well done England/Wales (wait for it)...

... we have just cured our in-growing toenail by amputating the leg.

Idiots!

25 replies, 3217 views

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Arrow 25 replies Author Time Post
Reply Well done England/Wales (wait for it)... (Original post)
Myrddin Jun 2016 OP
MFM008 Jun 2016 #1
eppur_se_muova Jun 2016 #2
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #3
geardaddy Jun 2016 #11
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #4
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #5
auntpurl Jun 2016 #9
MADem Jun 2016 #6
geardaddy Jun 2016 #14
MADem Jun 2016 #15
geardaddy Jun 2016 #17
MADem Jun 2016 #18
geardaddy Jun 2016 #19
MADem Jun 2016 #20
geardaddy Jun 2016 #21
MADem Jun 2016 #22
geardaddy Jun 2016 #23
Ken Burch Jun 2016 #8
MFM008 Jun 2016 #7
LeftishBrit Jun 2016 #10
Myrddin Jun 2016 #12
MADem Jun 2016 #16
MADem Jun 2016 #24
Dworkin Jun 2016 #13
Denzil_DC Jun 2016 #25

Response to Myrddin (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:46 AM

1. good point

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Response to Myrddin (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:44 AM

2. "We" ? You think Wales is going to hang around ? nt

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Response to eppur_se_muova (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:52 AM

3. A majority in Wales voted Leave. n/t

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:33 AM

11. Those in Y Fro Gymraeg voted a majority to Remain

As well as the capital:

Cardiff: Remain - 60%
Ceredigion: Remain - 54%
Gwynedd: Remain - 58%

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Response to eppur_se_muova (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:58 AM

4. Wales probably will. Scotland might not.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:08 AM

5. It's definitely going to be interesting times up here,

as elsewhere.

Unless people get good and angry and motivated as the next few months unfold, I'm not sure how much appetite there'll be for a quick referendum, though. We had the two-year Scottish referendum campaign, then the UK general election, then the Holyrood elections, local government elections coming up next year, and now this one. Turnout up here wasn't bad, but I think politics fatigue may be one reason why turnout wasn't better up here (it wasn't bad, just not stellar), the other being that it was seen by many as the Tories acting out their internal issues in public, hell mend them.

What a place in history Cameron's earned himself.

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Response to Denzil_DC (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:01 AM

9. Hard to believe "fucked a pig" wasn't the lowest point of his political career

yet here we are.

Scotland already calling for the referendum. Think it might happen quite quickly.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:59 AM

6. Wales doesn't have the business infrastructure or resources to survive on its own.

Scotland, at least, has enormous energy resources.

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Response to MADem (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 02:34 PM

14. There is one vital resource that Wales does have

That England wants: Water.

How do Monaco or Luxembourg or Malta survive on their own?

I think it's been pounded into the Welsh for centuries that they are completely dependent on England, when in fact England depend on Wales for resources, e.g., in the past it was coal, in the present it is water.

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Response to geardaddy (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:53 PM

15. England does have the Thames--in fact, that's where DAISANI gets its water.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0304-04.htm

Wales is not in a good position, I don't think. Unless they can develop their tourist industry, rather like Monaco, Luxembourg, and even Malta....

Right now, they're the retirement home of a lot of pensioners. That might change if they left the UK infrastructure.

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Response to MADem (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:01 PM

17. Wales supplies the Midlands with much of its water - The Severn is the longest river in Britain

Yes, Wales is the retirement home to a lot of pensioners, who are pricing out local Welsh people. I agree that they might not have the infrastructure now, but they need to have a drive toward independence - not full independence yet, but more self-sufficiency. The financial system is set up to make the Welsh dependent on Westminster. Until the Welsh can change that, there is no hope for Wales to succeed on any level of self-sufficiency.

Wales is one of the poorest areas of Europe, but that is due to how money is handled by Westminster.

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Response to geardaddy (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:23 PM

18. I think there's a bit more to it than that.

They were single-resource for the longest time, with the coal, and they are very agrarian as well--which could perhaps be made into a plus, but right now, so many of the farmers are on subsidy (that is partially funded by the EU, ooopsie) that a completely different business model would have to be crafted.

Their health care rolls are bursting with elderly English pensioners who have landed in Wales to live out their retirements, go into nursing care, and die in Wales--and that is a strain on resources as well.

The Welsh are resigned to getting screwed over. That resiliency might be a needed trait in the years to come, I'm afraid.

As for the Severn river, I can't see any threats about water "holding any water" (pardon my pun)--after all, don't both England and Wales have rights to that water, regardless of 'point of origin,?'

A look at the map would pretty much suggest this is the case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Severn



I just don't see any leverage there.

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Response to MADem (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:36 PM

19. Water is one of Wales main "exports"

They don't take water from England.

Their health care rolls are bursting with elderly English pensioners who have landed in Wales to live out their retirements, go into nursing care, and die in Wales--and that is a strain on resources as well.


This is a huge issue.

There is also a lot of tech industry in Wales, as well food processing.

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Response to geardaddy (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:20 PM

20. I understand that--but it's not like they can turn off the tap, or dam the Severn to prevent the

flow of the river. International law prevents that kind of threatening.

Much of that river flows IN England--its outlet to the sea winds through that green and pleasant land.

Trying to play the 'water politics' game is a nonstarter. It is as silly as the Germans trying to strongarm the Bulgarians (to say nothing of the Austrians, Hungarians, Romanians, etc.) over water rights to the Danube. Just because the river BEGINS in your land does not mean you can cut off the supply--that's not how these things work. See the Berlin Rules for additional insight:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Rules_on_Water_Resources

The document requires that nations take appropriate steps to sustain and manage water resources, in conjunction with other resources, and minimize environmental harm. In addition to setting out various regulations for nations to follow with respect to water within their boundaries and water they may share, it regulates behavior in wartime, including damage to water installations such as dams and dikes. Nations are not permitted to take action that may result in a shortage of life-sustaining water for civilians, unless a nation being invaded is compelled by military emergency to disable its own water supply, or that may cause undue ecological damage. Poisoning water necessary for survival is in all cases forbidden.
Where water resources are internationally shared, it regulates equitable use with reasonable consideration of such factors as past customary usages of the resource and balancing variant needs and demands of all bordering nations. It mandates that the first consideration in weighing needs is satisfying the requirements of human beings for water to sustain life. It requires that nations sharing water make reasonable efforts not to cause harm to one another by the ways in which the water is used. It permits free navigation by all nations sharing a water system, although it allows reasonable restriction by a nation of water navigation within its jurisdiction for security. Nations are expected to work together as needed to sustain shared water resources.
The document requires a reasonable openness to the international community of information related to water resources and their usage, particularly in those cases where nations sharing a water resource may be impacted. Except in cases of emergency, usage that may significantly impact others should be discussed in advance with all interested nations, with disagreements resolved by appeal as necessary to international governing committees.
Regardless of the location of water, and whether or not a water resource is shared, it asserts the right of every individual to equally access water to sustain life without discrimination, even in times of war. It requires states to enable their citizens to participate in decisions affecting water access by providing reasonable information about the water resource and plans impacting it. It also mandates the compensation of those who are displaced in the interests of securing water preservation. It requires that nations be mindful of the environmental factors that affect water resources and preserve them appropriately, such as by preventing water pollution and preserving native ecosystems, even if they are occupying foreign territory during a time of war. It requires appropriate measures to address flooding and drought, both in communicating quickly about these to nations sharing a water resource and in working to eliminate or prevent harm to a water resource and the population dependent on it.
The Berlin Rules on Water Resources provides that nations must enforce its provisions through local legislation and also submit to international review as necessary to ensure that they are compliant.

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Response to MADem (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:28 PM

21. I know they can't turn of the tap.



But they had no problem damning the Dee and submersing a village in Wales to provide water for Liverpool. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llyn_Celyn

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Response to geardaddy (Reply #21)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:31 PM

22. They can't use water as a weapon--or a lever. International law prohibits it. nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #22)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:32 PM

23. I realize and agree.

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Response to eppur_se_muova (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 07:29 AM

8. At this stage, Welsh independence is not economically viable.

 

Not only that, but Plaid Cymru(the Welsh nationalist party)has never managed to win even 15% of the Welsh vote in Westminster elections, or even more than 31% in Welsh Assembly elections(that was in the first Assembly election in 1999-in the most recent Assembly election, earlier this year, it only took 21%) so it doesn't look as though the Welsh are chomping at the bit on breaking with the UK).

The only thing I can imagine changing that would be if the SNP offered to include Wales in some sort of Celtic Federation or free trade agreement, but it's not clear that Nicola Sturgeon has the stones to try that.

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Response to Myrddin (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 04:34 AM

7. Only good thing

Is Cameron is out.

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 09:01 AM

10. He will almost certainly be replaced by something worse. Possibly much worse.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 11:50 AM

12. Probably Gove

Good!

'be careful what you wish for' springs to mind.

My apologies to the good people who voted remain.

For those who voted leave - you deserve Gove.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 03:58 PM

16. He ran like hell for two reasons; first because this was his baby,

to stay in the club; and second, because no matter who oversees
this disengagement, it is going to be a clusterf-ck.

The "much worse" is likely to be the Trump of the UK, Boris Johnson ... and the Guardian AND the Daily Mail agree!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/boris-johnson-favourite-to-replace-david-cameron-as-pm-after-brexit


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3658426/Who-Boris-Johnson-Meet-zip-lining-American-born-eccentric-favorite-Britain-s-Prime-Minister.html

How terrifying for that green and pleasant land.

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:32 PM

24. Be careful what you wish for....

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Response to Myrddin (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:15 PM

13. Gove

This feels like the early days of Thatcher to me. Hard to find the energy to go through a sequel.

D.

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Response to Myrddin (Original post)

Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:27 PM

25. Stolen from Twitter:

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