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Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:41 PM

 

Fact Check: MSNBC’s Palestinian loss of land map

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/check-msnbcs-palestinian

Last week, MSNBC aired a map (above) showing the loss of Palestinian land to Zionist settlers and then to Israel from 1946 to the present. Following criticism from Israelis and their supporters, MSNBC apologized and stated that the map was incorrect. But was it? The following is a fact check of MSNBC’s map and the criticisms of it.

Does the map accurately show the loss of Palestinian land since 1946?

Yes. The map accurately depicts the land that has been forcibly taken from Palestinians since 1946, two years before Israel was established and the accompanying expulsion of between 750,000 and a million Palestinians to make way for a Jewish state.

During and immediately following the state’s creation in 1948, Israel expropriated approximately 4,244,776 acres of Palestinian land. In the process, more than 400 Palestinian cities and towns were systematically destroyed by Israeli forces or repopulated with Jews. Most Palestinian population centers, including homes, businesses, houses of worship, and vibrant urban centers, were demolished to prevent the return of their owners, now refugees outside of Israel’s pre-1967 borders or internally displaced within them. (See here for interactive map of Palestinian population centers destroyed during Israel’s creation.)

Israel’s systematic dispossession of Palestinians is ongoing today, both in the occupied territories and inside Israel’s internationally recognized pre-1967 borders, where Palestinian citizens of the state and those living under occupation continue to be pushed out of their homes and off their lands – including entire towns – to make way for Jewish citizens and settlers. Today, there are approximately 650,000 Jewish settlers living illegally on occupied Palestinian land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Israel’s settlement enterprise covers approximately 42% of the West Bank.

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Arrow 41 replies Author Time Post
Reply Fact Check: MSNBC’s Palestinian loss of land map (Original post)
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 OP
bvar22 Oct 2015 #1
oberliner Oct 2015 #2
bvar22 Oct 2015 #4
azurnoir Oct 2015 #17
bvar22 Oct 2015 #33
shira Oct 2015 #19
oberliner Oct 2015 #24
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #6
oberliner Oct 2015 #9
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #11
oberliner Oct 2015 #14
shira Oct 2015 #23
oberliner Oct 2015 #25
oberliner Oct 2015 #3
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #5
oberliner Oct 2015 #7
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #8
oberliner Oct 2015 #10
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #12
oberliner Oct 2015 #13
King_David Oct 2015 #15
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #28
FBaggins Oct 2015 #29
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #30
FBaggins Oct 2015 #31
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #32
FBaggins Oct 2015 #34
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #35
FBaggins Oct 2015 #36
R. Daneel Olivaw Oct 2015 #37
shira Oct 2015 #38
Little Tich Oct 2015 #16
azurnoir Oct 2015 #20
Little Tich Oct 2015 #21
azurnoir Oct 2015 #22
Little Tich Oct 2015 #27
shira Oct 2015 #39
Little Tich Oct 2015 #40
shira Oct 2015 #41
FBaggins Oct 2015 #18
oberliner Oct 2015 #26

Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Original post)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:06 PM

1. DURec.

Here is the map:

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:55 PM

2. How can the yellow part represent "Israel land" on the 1946 map?

 

There was no Israel at the time.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:00 PM

4. I was curious about that too.

That is one reason why I posted the map.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:58 PM

17. Ya because even today 69 years later the Golan still isn't Israeli land

but if there was no Israel in 1946 is the best that can be done the words 'weak sauce' come to mind

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #17)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:58 PM

33. I did a little research last night, and confirmed that...

there were Jewish enclaves in the area called Palestine that pre-date the 1946 mandate. While this land was not a country named "Israel", the first map could be showing the Jewish enclaves that pre-date the formation of the country named Israel.

I'm not arguing either way, but this information could be what is shown in map 1 above.

"The Zionist Commission was formed in March 1918 and was active in promoting Zionist objectives in Palestine. On 19 April 1920, elections were held for the Assembly of Representatives of the Palestinian Jewish community.The Zionist Commission received official recognition in 1922 as representative of the Palestinian Jewish community.

<snip>

The 1922 Palestine Order in Council established a Legislative Council, which was to consist of 23 members: 12 elected, 10 appointed, and the High Commissioner. Of the 12 elected members, eight were to be Muslim Arabs, two Christian Arabs and two Jews. Arabs protested against the distribution of the seats, arguing that as they constituted 88% of the population, having only 43% of the seats was unfair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 10:01 PM

19. The '47 map is worse than the '46 one. It was never a reality.

 

It was a proposal (Partition Plan).

The 3rd map ('49-'67) pretends the green areas across the armistice lines of '48 were Palestinian. They were not, as they were under illegal Egyptian and Jordanian control.

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Response to shira (Reply #19)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 06:59 AM

24. And Israel did not exist in 1947 either

 

In the interest of accuracy, it should have had the two areas labelled as "Proposed Jewish State" and "Proposed Arab State".

One would think that would be the sort of thing that would come up in a "fact check".

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:04 PM

6. Well if you lifted a finger and bothered to read the article...

 

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #6)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:09 PM

9. The question is not addressed in the article

 

It just mentions, as I did, that Israel did not exist in 1946.

It does not explain what the yellow area is meant to represent in the first map.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:18 PM

11. Do I have to do everything for you?

 

Yes. There were two factual errors in the map:

​It showed the Syrian Golan Heights, which have been under Israeli military occupation since the 1967 War, as part of Israel, although the international community, including the United States, does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the area.

The map also shows “Israel” existing in 1946. While British Mandatory Palestine did exist in 1946, there was no political entity called “Israel” until 1948.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #11)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:30 PM

14. Since there was no Israel in 1946, what do the yellow areas represent?

 

If they don't represent anything, then the entire first map is meaningless.

In which case, this "fact check" should've concluded that the maps were inaccurate since the first map doesn't show anything.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 06:53 AM

23. Right, the yellow part shows private Jewish property....

 

Meanwhile the green does not show private Palestinian property in comparison.

In fact, in 1946 all of that was British occupied. That map should be one color throughout.

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Response to shira (Reply #23)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 07:12 AM

25. The maps are designed for propaganda, not accuracy

 

The weird thing is that one could make a similar propaganda point with accurate maps (such as the one of the West Bank settlement expansion), but these dumbed-down BS ones are more visually effective, I guess.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Original post)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:56 PM

3. How is it possible that Mondoweiss BS is still posted here?

 

Is there not a general consensus regarding that blog?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #3)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:04 PM

5. Deal with the OP, ober. Stop kvetching for once.

 

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #5)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:05 PM

7. Mondoweiss is garbage and the maps have already been discussed at length

 

Check previous threads for some really detailed back and forth about them.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:07 PM

8. Deal with it. Deal with reality. Deal with what zionism has done to the Palestinians.

 


For once at least.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #8)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:11 PM

10. What is the yellow area in the first map meant to represent?

 

If you agree that there was no Israel in 1946, then what distinguishes the green areas from the yellow areas in the first map?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #10)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:20 PM

12. What is the yellow area! What is the yellow area! Keep on changing that subject, and

 


I'll knock it right back into your pen.


Deal with it. Deal with reality. Deal with what zionism has done to the Palestinians.

For once at least.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #12)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:28 PM

13. The subject is whether or not the maps are accurate

 

This article purports to be a "fact check" of the maps.

The first map has some areas in yellow labeled "Israel land" even though there was no Israel (which the article also notes).

Since we are in agreement that there was no Israel at the time, what do the areas in yellow represent?

One would think that would be a pretty reasonable question to address in a "fact check" of the maps.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #13)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:22 PM

15. The maps are as rubbish as Mondoweiss ....as MSNBC concluded

Mondoweiss is a hate site as has been demonstrated amply .

Why any "Democrat" would post that site here is revealing all of itself and shows something .

Mondoweiss has trashed Bernie Sanders as well as Hillary and is a trash site.

?v=1435252877

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Response to King_David (Reply #15)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 09:06 AM

28. Please stop with the disinformation, king.

 

I'm embarrassed for your failed attempts at censorship.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #28)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 09:14 AM

29. Laughable

The entire OP is disinformation.

The closest thing to an attempt at censorship on the thread is your ridiculous attempt to keep others from pointing out the disinformation and just "deal with it" instead.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #29)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 10:31 AM

30. What's laughable is the pretense that Palestinian land hasn't been taken.

 

Does the map accurately show the loss of Palestinian land since 1946?

Yes. The map accurately depicts the land that has been forcibly taken from Palestinians since 1946, two years before Israel was established and the accompanying expulsion of between 750,000 and a million Palestinians to make way for a Jewish state.


What's truly laughable is how desperate some are to pretend the above never hapoened.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #30)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 10:58 AM

31. That's strange. That claim must have been deleted from the thread

I can't see anyone claiming that no Palestinian land was ever taken.

Merely the correction that the maps (and the site's spin on those maps) do not accurately reflect reality - when they don't.

The only "desperation" shown here is the ridiculous attempt to pretend otherwise (as you continue to do above).

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #31)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:26 PM

32. Riiiiiight.

 

FBaggins
29. Laughable
The entire OP is disinformation
.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #32)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:04 PM

34. And you read that as a claim that no Palenstinian land was ever taken?

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised at historical revisionism if you can't even get past a couple posts without building a strawman out of them.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #34)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:10 PM

35. "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised at historical revisionism..."

 

Why should you be surprised when Netanbooboo does it right along wirh the rest of the right wing zionists...and their tireless defenders on DU?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #35)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:18 PM

36. Deflection?

Also not a surprise.

What happened to "dealing with" the subject of the OP?

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #36)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 02:19 PM

37. It was an answer to your tepid response.

 

Deal.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #36)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 06:47 PM

38. Just realizing I really missed you here. n/t

 

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Original post)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:42 PM

16. No. No. No...

Those maps are spectacularly wrong, and they shouldn't be part of any serious discourse on the displacement of Palestinians and the stealing of their land. This institute for Middle East Understanding is no better than CAMERA (which is one of the most inaccurate websites on the internet, not a small feat), at least when it comes to maps.

The problem is that each map is inaccurate on its own and each one shows different factors than than the last one. They've been thoroughly debunked already, and I don't understand why they're still around.

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Response to Little Tich (Reply #16)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 10:11 PM

20. yes here is a far more accurate rundown of the maps

Palestinian/MSNBC propaganda says the exact opposite simply by misrepresenting Mandate Palestine as a Palestinian state that supposedly pre-existed Israel. If anything, therefore, "disappearing Palestine" represents nothing less than the disappearance of Israel. Since Arabic is written from right to left, the proper meaning of these maps becomes obvious. The yellow areas in the MSNBC map represent the envisioned gradual disappearance of Israel.


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/27609/Default.aspx

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #20)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 10:49 PM

21. Those maps are no better than the ones in the OP.

They can be debunked as easily as the ones in the OP, which is probably your point. I distinctly remember having refuted the first two myself.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

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Response to Little Tich (Reply #21)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 03:11 AM

22. well can you produce some accurate maps for us

or do you like so many others here hold fast to the there is no Palestine meme? Something that comes almost as a surprise to me

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #22)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 08:13 AM

27. Don't worry, I haven't gone over to the dark side.

It's just that all those maps have been created to fit a particular argument and they don't conform well to reality. It's probably not possible to fit the actual history of Palestine into a succession of maps that purport to show loss of Palestinian (or in the example you provided, loss of Eretz Yisrael) lands.

The immigration of Jews into Palestine isn't the same kind of event as the ethnic cleansing in 1947 and 1948, nor are they similar to the invasion of Palestinian lands held by Egypt and Jordan in 1967. Each of these events are well described as separate events with a beginning and an end, and the accompanying maps on Wikipedia and elsewhere are correct.

Of course there was a Palestine and of course there was a Palestinian people. It's just that the self-identity of Palestinians didn't conform to modern Western notions of peoplehood and nationhood. Regardless, it was a naughty thing to do to forcibly remove the Palestinians against their will, and I think that Israel will eventually have to let their descendants return if they would want to.

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Response to Little Tich (Reply #27)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 06:52 PM

39. "Naughty to forcibly remove Palestinians against their will...."

 

Why do you think that happened?

1. Due to war, real threat?

2. Racism, malice?

3. Other?

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Response to shira (Reply #39)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:00 PM

40. The tenets of Zionism dictated that the Jewish homeland had to be liberated from Arabs.

The idea was that a people without a land should settle a land without people. I can recommend that you read Ilan Pappé's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", which argues very convincingly that the removal of Arabs was planned all along, and that the hostilities in 1947 and 1948 were just an excuse for executing this plan.

Anyway, I strongly support the right of any individual to live in their ancestral homeland, which means that I support the right of return for all Palestinian refugees.

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Response to Little Tich (Reply #40)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:03 PM

41. Oh sure, Illan Pappe again. An admitted liar & propagandist.

 

Fascinating.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Original post)

Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:59 PM

18. Of course the map is useless

"Israel" is a political entity. "Palestinians" are people.

How does the map show land that is owned by Palestinians... but politically controlled by Israel? It shows it as part of Israel.

How does the map show land that was owned by jews... but politically controlled as part of the Palestine Mandate? It shows it as Israel (inexplicably).

How does the map show land that was politically controlled by the British, but not owned by anyone (because it's empty desert)? It shows it as being taken by Israel.

It doesn't even appear to accurately represent the map from Palestinian sources at the time:

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #18)

Fri Oct 23, 2015, 07:41 AM

26. Very well put

 

Hopefully it will sink in eventually.

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