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Panich52

(5,829 posts)
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 08:49 PM Jun 2015

In Europe, fewer mass killings due to culture not guns

While 2 1/2 yrs old, this article seems current..

USA Today

In Europe, fewer mass killings due to culture not guns
Oren Dorell, USA TODAY
Dec 18, 2012

The USA leads the world in gun ownership, but it's our individualistic culture that puts us at greater risk of mass shootings compared with other countries where guns are prevalent, according to a British criminologist who has studied gun violence in different nations.

Mass shooters in any nation tend to be loners with not much social support who strike out at their communities, schools and families, says Peter Squires of the University of Brighton in the United Kingdom, who has studied mass shootings in his own country, the United States and Europe.

Many other countries where gun ownership is high, such as Norway, Finland, Switzerland and Israel, however, tend to have more tight-knit societies where a strong social bond supports people through crises, and mass killings are fewer, Squires said.

"In a sense they're less private" than in the USA, "but privacy and individualism is where some of the causes of crime and revenge can be found," he said.

"What stops crime above all is informal social controls," he says. "Close-knit societies where people are supported, where their mood swings are appreciated, where if someone starts to go off the rails it's noted, where you tend to intervene, where there's more support."

More
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/17/guns-mass-killings-worldwide/1776191/

37 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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In Europe, fewer mass killings due to culture not guns (Original Post) Panich52 Jun 2015 OP
"...AND NO guns". Fixed it! Fred Sanders Jun 2015 #1
Oh look, a useless provacative comment by Fred Sanders...but I repeat myself Shamash Jun 2015 #2
Yes part of the problem is allowing all those loners to have access to unlimited firepower... Human101948 Jun 2015 #4
Not really, you ignored the third paragraph: friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author rainy Jun 2015 #30
Take heart Fred. The way you guys have been 'fixing' things lately hasn't gone unnoticed.N/T beevul Jun 2015 #5
What kind of "culture" immediately springs to the defence of guns, after a mass shooting? delrem Jun 2015 #6
"As if protecting gun rights is the most important thing - in fact the *only* thing." friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #7
"It's more a reaction to attempts to gin up a moral panic by those using tragedy as a cover. " delrem Jun 2015 #10
Do you see mass shootings as an opportune time to promote new gun control measures? friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #11
Yes, thats precisely what it is. beevul Jun 2015 #17
I say you're trying to deny the tragedy happened, delrem Jun 2015 #18
Of course you do. beevul Jun 2015 #19
You won't stop the discussion from taking place. delrem Jun 2015 #20
It would help the discussion greatly if you had informed yourself... friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #22
Now you're just being snotty because your spin-doctoring was stopped cold. beevul Jun 2015 #36
Who was first in line to dump the usual gun-ban doctrines? Everytime. Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #34
What kind of culture... Shamash Jun 2015 #9
Why are you so hepped about guns? delrem Jun 2015 #12
"Can't you get off your hobby-horse long enough to examine the facts, to examine the general... friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #15
"violent racism and stochastic terrorism, not the technical methods used by racists/terrorists" delrem Jun 2015 #16
The Charleston attack was undoubtedly an act of violence fueled by racism... friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #21
Of course it's not *your* problem. It's a stochastic problem! delrem Jun 2015 #23
It's *everybody's* problem- you, me, and everyone else friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #24
"Why are you so hepped about guns?" Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2015 #32
Immediately? Hardly. Straw Man Jun 2015 #27
The kind that is responding to immediate cries for gun seizures krispos42 Jun 2015 #31
Europe doesn't have fewer mass killings Man from Pickens Jun 2015 #8
Does that give you a sense of satisfaction? delrem Jun 2015 #13
Why would it cross your mind to suggest that? Man from Pickens Jun 2015 #25
What a sick and insulting thing to say. You should be ashamed. Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2015 #33
"That roadsign up ahead! You have just entered the Hide-Proof Zone." Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #35
Not to mention the Balkan war of 1912, 1914-1918, the Soviet-Polish war of 1919-1920,... friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #14
Wars are nations and ethnic groups going haywire. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #29
and this, The Cost of letting young people drift. elleng Jun 2015 #26
Yes. I have lived in societies in which hunting was pretty central to the life, and there JDPriestly Jun 2015 #28
This study should prompt a good discussion about why our culture is different. Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #37
 

Human101948

(3,457 posts)
4. Yes part of the problem is allowing all those loners to have access to unlimited firepower...
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 09:17 PM
Jun 2015

but the gun manufacturers can't have any reduction in sales so that won't fly.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
3. Not really, you ignored the third paragraph:
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 09:16 PM
Jun 2015
Many other countries where gun ownership is high, such as Norway, Finland, Switzerland and Israel, however, tend to have more tight-knit societies where a strong social bond supports people through crises, and mass killings are fewer, Squires said.


The first three countries mentioned all have vigorous gun cultures.

Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #3)

delrem

(9,688 posts)
6. What kind of "culture" immediately springs to the defence of guns, after a mass shooting?
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 10:15 PM
Jun 2015

So that "gun rights" advocates are all over the news, sucking up the oxygen. As if protecting gun rights is the most important thing - in fact the *only* thing.
Can you see a connection?
Just the myopia of focusing on gun ownership/rights as being the thing most to be protected, in reaction to another mass shooting, shows that something is WRONG and that it is somehow connected to the relationship that the US citizenry has, in general, with guns.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
7. "As if protecting gun rights is the most important thing - in fact the *only* thing."
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:11 PM
Jun 2015

Assumption of facts not in evidence

Just the myopia of focusing on gun ownership/rights as being the thing most to be protected, in reaction to another mass shooting,


It's more a reaction to attempts to gin up a moral panic by those using tragedy as a cover.



delrem

(9,688 posts)
10. "It's more a reaction to attempts to gin up a moral panic by those using tragedy as a cover. "
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:17 PM
Jun 2015

No, it isn't.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
11. Do you see mass shootings as an opportune time to promote new gun control measures?
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:20 PM
Jun 2015

If not, please accept my apologies

If so, I rest my case

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
17. Yes, thats precisely what it is.
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:42 PM
Jun 2015
"It's more a reaction to attempts to gin up a moral panic by those using tragedy as a cover. "


Yes, thats precisely what it is.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
18. I say you're trying to deny the tragedy happened,
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:47 PM
Jun 2015

and that there's a cultural context.

Others have tried to falsify the cultural context, by pretending that the perp was out to get "christians", rather than people of a race he hated. You simply deny that there's any context whatsoever. Like the context of the pictures of the perp, sitting there with gun in hand smugly asserting his view.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
19. Of course you do.
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 12:10 AM
Jun 2015
I say you're trying to deny the tragedy happened, and that there's a cultural context.


Of course you do. And I say you deny beating your dog. See how easy unsubstantiated assertions are for everyone else to make?

Others have tried to falsify the cultural context, by pretending that the perp was out to get "christians", rather than people of a race he hated. You simply deny that there's any context whatsoever. Like the context of the pictures of the perp, sitting there with gun in hand smugly asserting his view.


The above word salad has exactly nothing to do with anything I've said. What was being discussed, was what happens regular as clockwork after mass shootings, remember?

This is the assertion in question:

It's more a reaction to attempts to gin up a moral panic by those using tragedy as a cover.


Your reply to that was this:

No, it isn't.


My reply to that was this:

Yes, thats precisely what it is.




That IS precisely what it is. Whats more, I know its true. You see, this is not the first time we've done this little dance. This has been observed time and time and time again. Not to mention, theres the personal angle:

I KNOW this is a reaction to attempts to gin up a moral panic by those using tragedy as a cover, because I am one of the people reacting to the attempts to gin up a moral panic.

Now, would you like to tell me again, that you know the reasons people are reacting better than the people who are reacting, themselves?


delrem

(9,688 posts)
20. You won't stop the discussion from taking place.
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 12:29 AM
Jun 2015

The discussion will happen without you, but it will happen because it has to happen.


 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
36. Now you're just being snotty because your spin-doctoring was stopped cold.
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 03:35 PM
Jun 2015
You won't stop the discussion from taking place.

The discussion will happen without you, but it will happen because it has to happen.


Now you're just being snotty because your spin-doctoring was stopped cold:


People like you don't want a discussion.

You want a monologue.

That's the entire reason you were spin doctoring in the first place, after all.

To cow those who would dare disagree with things that might be said in this "discussion" you are talking about, into silence.


The discussion will happen without you...


Pack a lunch, and bring enough for everyone. There are tens of millions of strong second amendment supporters, and we tend to ignore being told to "shut up".

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
34. Who was first in line to dump the usual gun-ban doctrines? Everytime.
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 03:23 PM
Jun 2015

I think what upsets you is the push back. Even though DU gives MORE than ample opportunity for gun discussion (2 groups, 1 ad hoc forum), some controllers are incensed they are not accorded complete control of the lectern. And when pushback occurs, they play some contrived "compassion" card, and one side is told to back off for a period of mourning. The other side? Not so much: Again, who was first in line with all that "compassion" speech?

 

Shamash

(597 posts)
9. What kind of culture...
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:15 PM
Jun 2015

looks at a crazy racist and blames the object he used rather than what he did?

Tell you what. Go back through the historical records and tell me about the public outcry by the “dynamite lobby” protecting their interests after this.

What's that you say? There weren't any "explosives advocates" sucking all the oxygen out of the news when that happened? Why do you think that is? Why yes, it's because there weren't any dumbasses blaming the crime on easy access to dynamite, and so all the people who had legitimate non-criminal uses for the stuff felt no need to defend themselves for something they weren't culpable for. The focus was on the criminals and their motivations, rather than a...how should I say it...myopic focus on the method. Yes, "myopic focus" sounds about right. Though "obsessive-compulsive" would also work.

You know what kind of legislation resulted from that mass murder? Civil rights legislation. Legislation to increase tolerance, increase inclusiveness, increase understanding. You ought to try that approach some time. It'll make you feel...liberal.

And you know how many explosives laws were passed in the wake of that bombing? Zero.

"Gun rights" people pop out of the woodwork when people try to diminish those rights, much like any rights group does when some bunch of authoritarian yahoos gets their panties in a bunch and tries to diminish them through fear and other appeals to emotion.

So yeah, there's definitely a culture problem here. Not the one you're thinking of, though.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
12. Why are you so hepped about guns?
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:25 PM
Jun 2015

Why are you using this opportunity, the mass killing of a congregation of worshippers by a psycho using a gun, as platform for a defence of gun rights?

Don't you think there's something a bit weird, a bit off, about that?

Why not wait a couple days? Can't you get off your hobby-horse long enough to examine the facts, to examine the general context and more widely general problem?



 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
15. "Can't you get off your hobby-horse long enough to examine the facts, to examine the general...
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:38 PM
Jun 2015

...context and more widely general problem?"

We did. You just read one estimation of "the general context and more widely general problem"
- which, imo, would be violent racism and stochastic terrorism, not the technical methods
used by racists/terrorists.

Anyone who blamed Hercules or Dynamit Nobel for Birmingham, AL acquiring
the name "Bombingham" during the civil rights era would be ignored as a crank, and rightfully so.

Just because Shamash reached conclusions not to your liking does not mean
they are automatically invalid

delrem

(9,688 posts)
16. "violent racism and stochastic terrorism, not the technical methods used by racists/terrorists"
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:42 PM
Jun 2015

Wow.

That's just -- otherworldly techno-spam.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
21. The Charleston attack was undoubtedly an act of violence fueled by racism...
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 12:40 AM
Jun 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026861663

White killer: "I am a racist. This was racially motivated."
White killer: "I am a racist. This was racially motivated."

Media: "Woah there buddy!!!! We don't know all the facts yet. Give us time."

https://twitter.com/See_Say_92/status/611585402953146370
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/dylann-roof-plan-charleston-shooting
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/dylann-roof-charleston-suspect-facts


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141122922

Alleged Manifesto Of Dylann Roof Confirms Racist Motivation For South Carolina Murders
Source: Think Progress

Alleged Manifesto Of Dylann Roof Confirms Racist Motivation For South Carolina Murders
by Emily Atkin
Posted on June 20, 2015 at 3:00 pm

A reverse Whois domain name lookup by Twitter users @HenryKrinkle and @EmmaQuangel has revealed a manifesto that appears to be written by Dylann Roof, the white 21-year-old who recently confessed to the brutal murders of nine black people at the historic Emanuel A.M.E. Church in Charleston, South Carolina.

If the manifesto is authentic, it will undoubtedly serve as confirmation for what motivated Roof when he opened fire on members of a Bible study group on Wednesday. Indeed, if authentic, the document would confirm Roof’s motivation was not to attack Christians or Christianity, as many have claimed.

“I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country,” the document reads. “We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.”

That Roof’s motivation was hatred against black people does not come as a surprise. Following the shooting, Roof was quoted as follows: “You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.” The South Carolina native had been photographed wearing a jacket bearing flags representing two African countries where whites once ruled blacks, and reportedly told friends he wanted to start a race war.


Read more: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/06/20/3672201/alleged-dylann-roof-racist-manifesto-revealed/


...and if you are, indeed, unaware of what the term 'stochastic terrorism' means:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Stochastic+terrorism%22&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/01/11/934890/-Stochastic-Terrorism-160-Triggering-the-shooters

Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 05:37 PM PST
Stochastic Terrorism: Triggering the shooters.

by G2geek

Stochastic terrorism is the use of mass communications to stir up random lone wolves to carry out violent or terrorist acts that are statistically predictable but individually unpredictable.

This is what occurs when Bin Laden releases a video that stirs random extremists halfway around the globe to commit a bombing or shooting.

This is also the term for what Beck, O'Reilly, Hannity, and others do. And this is what led directly and predictably to a number of cases of ideologically-motivated murder similar to the Tucson shootings.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141123105

Charleston Shooter’s Alleged Manifesto Reveals Hate Group (CCC) Helped to Radicalize Him Online

Source: The Southern Poverty Law Center

A manifesto, purportedly penned by Dylann Storm Roof, the man charged with murdering nine people at a historic black church in Charleston, S.C., has surfaced online. A website contains numerous photos of Roof as well as a 2,000 word manifesto. The website is called “The Last Rhodesian” – the Rhodesian flag was one of the patches Roof had on his jacket in his Facebook profile photo. Roof’s manifesto reveals much of his motivations for committing his heinous act. In it, he specifically cites the website of the white nationalist hate group Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC) as his gateway into the radical right. The CCC is the modern reincarnation of the old White Citizens Councils, which were formed in the 1950s and 1960s to battle school desegregation in the South. Today, the CCC dedicates itself to educating whites on what it sees as an epidemic of black on white crime in the United States. The CCC website has been a touchstone for the radical right to get “educated” on this issue – and it appears this was the first stop for Roof on his dive down the white nationalist rabbit hole.

Roof’s alleged manifesto reads, “The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case. I kept hearing and seeing his name, and eventually I decided to look him up. I read the Wikipedia article and right away I was unable to understand what the big deal was. It was obvious that Zimmerman was in the right. But more importantly this prompted me to type in the words “black on White crime” into Google, and I have never been the same since that day. The first website I came to was the Council of Conservative Citizens. There were pages upon pages of these brutal black on White murders. I was in disbelief. At this moment I realized that something was very wrong. How could the news be blowing up the Trayvon Martin case while hundreds of these black on White murders got ignored?”

The CCC is very active in Roof’s home state of South Carolina. In fact, the CCC webmaster, white nationalist Kyle Rogers, is based in the state. Rogers is the mastermind behind the CCC’s push to bring attention to black on white crime – writing article after article on the CCC website exposing what he calls black on white hate crimes. This brand of racist opportunism, exemplified by Rogers’s coverage of the Trayvon Martin shooting, is a staple of Rogers and the CCC’s media plan. On Feb. 6, 2012, in the midst of the site’s coverage of the shooting, the CCC’s website topped 170,000 unique visits in a single day. Such successes have emboldened Rogers and the CCC’s web team, resulting in similar coverage following the 2014 death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., and the social unrest that followed. It seems the CCC media strategy was successful in recruiting Roof into the radical right.

When he isn’t writing about black on white crime, Rogers manages a flag store, Patriotic-Flags.com, which you can visit by clicking an ad on the CCC website. Rogers’ store sells the flag of the government of Rhodesia, the same flag sewn on the jacket worn by Roof in his Facebook profile. Before Root’s alleged manifest was discovered, Rogers was quick to attack the Southern Poverty Law Center for our reporting on the Roof shooting. Rogers claimed “there is no evidence whatsoever” of Roof being radicalized online. If authorities determine that Roof’s manifesto is authentic, Rogers words may well come back to haunt him. UPDATE: Charleston law enforcement authorities have confirmed that the website containing Dylann Storm Roof’s manifesto and photos was registered and run by Roof.

Read more: http://splcenter.org/blog/2015/06/20/charleston-shooters-alleged-manifesto-reveals-hate-group-helped-to-radicalize-him-online/



...then I daresay that 'otherworldly' isn't my problem



delrem

(9,688 posts)
23. Of course it's not *your* problem. It's a stochastic problem!
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 12:45 AM
Jun 2015

jeez louise.

Bye, this has been my first and only foray into the world-view of DU's gun nuts.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
24. It's *everybody's* problem- you, me, and everyone else
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 12:52 AM
Jun 2015
Bye, this has been my first and only foray into the world-view of DU's gun nuts.


To quote Mel Horowitz: "I doubt you'll be missed"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112697/

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
32. "Why are you so hepped about guns?"
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 10:08 AM
Jun 2015

It's not about the guns, it's about the right to self-defense. The Controllers have made it about guns and are only using the shooting as cover for the fact that they refuse to acknowledge the right of people to defend themselves.

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
27. Immediately? Hardly.
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 03:55 AM
Jun 2015
What kind of "culture" immediately springs to the defence of guns, after a mass shooting?

So that "gun rights" advocates are all over the news, sucking up the oxygen. As if protecting gun rights is the most important thing - in fact the *only* thing.

The first peeps I heard about guns following this act of racist terrorism were from those who were taking this occasion to call for more gun control, ignoring the crux of the problem -- violent racism -- in order to beat their favorite drum. It's the same old story: We're supposed to shut up and let you take center stage while you wave the bloody shirt and call for a host of new laws that will fail to stop such incidents just as the numerous gun control laws that Roof violated failed to stop him.

And please spare us the "Then why have any laws at all?" nonsense, unless you can point out where we can find murder as a protected right in the Constitution. A free society has to walk a fine line between rights and restrictions. You could have a very safe society if you were willing to shred the Bill of Rights and lock up everyone who squawked. Is that what you want?
 

Man from Pickens

(1,713 posts)
8. Europe doesn't have fewer mass killings
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:14 PM
Jun 2015

Charlie Hebdo... Anders Brevik... that loon who crashed a plane full of passengers into the mountain...

Europe is descending into the same madness - it is incorrect to believe they have any immunity to this phenomenon. And of course the Balkans and Ukraine are part of Europe as well, and we haven't seen anything like what went on in the former and is currently going on in the latter in 150 years.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
14. Not to mention the Balkan war of 1912, 1914-1918, the Soviet-Polish war of 1919-1920,...
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 11:27 PM
Jun 2015

Last edited Sun Jun 21, 2015, 12:54 AM - Edit history (1)

...the Finnish-Soviet Winter War of 1939, and of course the charnel house that was 1939-1945


Granted, Europe has stretches when it's quite peacable- but when Europeans go haywire,
they go murderous in a big way

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
29. Wars are nations and ethnic groups going haywire.
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 04:45 AM
Jun 2015

What we have is individuals losing it. Exclusion could well be a cause.

In Europe, some very odd individuals are accepted and heard and appreciated by their families and friends. Here, someone who is peculiar is likely to be ostracized or to be able to stick to himself. It happens in Europe too, but it happens more here.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
28. Yes. I have lived in societies in which hunting was pretty central to the life, and there
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 04:43 AM
Jun 2015

were not all these mass shootings.

Our society excludes so many people. We pay no attention to our misfits. We are very intolerant in that respect. It's kind of hard to explain how it is in other societies in Europe, but I have seen and experienced it.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
37. This study should prompt a good discussion about why our culture is different.
Sun Jun 21, 2015, 03:43 PM
Jun 2015

Implied here are the differences, often ignored, between "individuality" and "individuation;" "privacy" and "anonamy;" and "bootstrap self-reliance" and supportive "social bonds." What some mistake as a desireable privacy may in fact be societal alienation.

Sociologists and culture critics have struggled with this topic for generations, now.

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