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rug

(82,333 posts)
Wed May 30, 2012, 01:22 PM May 2012

What Believers and Atheists Can Learn From Each Other

Posted: 05/30/2012 12:50 pm
By Rabbi Geoffrey Mitelman and Sam McNerney

Rabbi Geoffrey Mitelman: It's inherently challenging for believers and atheists to have productive conversations. Discussing topics such as belief and nonbelief, the potential irrationality of religion, or the limits of scientific knowledge is difficult since each side often ends up more firmly entrenched in their own worldview.

But one bright person interested in broadening the conversation is Sam McNerney, a science writer who focuses on cognitive science and an atheist interested in religion from a psychological point of view.

I found Sam through his writing on ScientificAmerican.com, and started reading his blog Why We Reason and his posts on BigThink.com. We discovered that even though we approached religion from different perspectives, we had great respect for each other.

So as two people with different religious outlooks we wondered: What can we learn from each other?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-geoffrey-a-mitelman/believers-and-atheists-can-learn-from-each-other_b_1554316.html

27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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What Believers and Atheists Can Learn From Each Other (Original Post) rug May 2012 OP
I am an atheist and I endorse this message. longship May 2012 #1
Agree and I think it can be done by those who want it to happen. cbayer May 2012 #7
Sköl, my friend longship May 2012 #8
Awwwww... so sweet! daaron May 2012 #9
Whatever ya do, don't forget us heathen atheists! longship May 2012 #10
It would be quite impossible to forget atheists! daaron May 2012 #12
I'm with you all the way. May the seeds of discord fall on barren ground. Starboard Tack May 2012 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #2
Plums. rug May 2012 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #6
Good article and a great conversation. cbayer May 2012 #4
There's really no other reason to be here. rug May 2012 #5
In the US at least most atheists were raised as believers.. Fumesucker May 2012 #11
Without googling, do you know Proverbs 11:2? rug May 2012 #13
That's an awfully high standard.. Fumesucker May 2012 #14
Maybe you should google. rug May 2012 #15
I do know that pride or hubris is considered the most serious of the seven cardinal sins... Fumesucker May 2012 #16
That song makes my skin crawl. rug May 2012 #20
I went to a Thanksgiving ceremony one of my granddaughters was in at school a while back.. Fumesucker May 2012 #21
I can take even Toby Keith in small doses but not Lee Greenwood. rug May 2012 #22
Good post rug. Makes it all worthwhile when I see inclusionary threads like this. Starboard Tack May 2012 #18
Yes. When we die, we are remembered for how we lived, not for being right or wrong. rug May 2012 #19
That's right. Religion and science have nothing to do with it. Starboard Tack May 2012 #23
Generally this kumbaya stuff gives me the creeps. trotsky May 2012 #24
I know what you're saying even though I'm a fuzzy, kumbayish, sensitive type who hates confrontation rug May 2012 #25
There's another big problem I have with the HuffPo writeup. trotsky May 2012 #26
You're right. That article discusses reason not atheism. rug May 2012 #27

longship

(40,416 posts)
1. I am an atheist and I endorse this message.
Wed May 30, 2012, 01:52 PM
May 2012

It really is the only way (as Bill Nye might say) to get 'er done! We want to change the world and we need each other to do that.

Anyway, any atheist who wants to rid the world of religion is not thinking realistically. As Dennett has said (paraphrasing): rather, we want a less virulent version of religion, one with fewer toxic effects.

That would improve our world immensely. Let's stay together and get 'er done.

 

daaron

(763 posts)
9. Awwwww... so sweet!
Wed May 30, 2012, 03:38 PM
May 2012

NOT sarcasm! Let's do this you crazy wonderful leftists, libs, progs and proles!!!

longship

(40,416 posts)
10. Whatever ya do, don't forget us heathen atheists!
Wed May 30, 2012, 05:05 PM
May 2012

We're all one happy family here (except that dualist argument, or whether religion is evil, or whether -- horrors -- there is free will).

Sköl to you, too, my friend.

 

daaron

(763 posts)
12. It would be quite impossible to forget atheists!
Wed May 30, 2012, 05:32 PM
May 2012

Nor do I, at least, have any desire to do so! Personally, I have more in common with atheists than most fellow Christians (speaking generically and including all the various sects, however extreme) -- it's that whole knowledge thing: I had to quite disconnect the basis of my belief from what I learn from history and current events. As an agnostic, it is true what I've read atheists here saying: knowledge and belief are not at the extremes of a gradient.

Response to rug (Original post)

Response to rug (Reply #3)

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. Good article and a great conversation.
Wed May 30, 2012, 01:58 PM
May 2012

There is much to be learned here about having civil discussions about difficult topics.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
11. In the US at least most atheists were raised as believers..
Wed May 30, 2012, 05:25 PM
May 2012

So in many cases we already know both sides of the argument(s).

Indeed, if you also consider the fact that atheists are the most knowledgeable group in America regarding religion I'm not sure that atheists have all that much to learn from believers.





Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
14. That's an awfully high standard..
Wed May 30, 2012, 06:08 PM
May 2012

One that damn few Christians can meet, particularly when you consider that over half of Protestants don't know who Martin Luther was.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39397251/ns/us_news-life/t/survey-americans-dont-know-much-about-religion/

Forty-five percent of Roman Catholics who participated in the study didn't know that, according to church teaching, the bread and wine used in Holy Communion is not just a symbol, but becomes the body and blood of Christ.

More than half of Protestants could not identify Martin Luther as the person who inspired the Protestant Reformation. And about four in 10 Jews did not know that Maimonides, one of the greatest rabbis and intellectuals in history, was Jewish.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
15. Maybe you should google.
Wed May 30, 2012, 06:10 PM
May 2012

"When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom."

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
16. I do know that pride or hubris is considered the most serious of the seven cardinal sins...
Wed May 30, 2012, 06:22 PM
May 2012

And yet the song "I'm proud to be an American" is remarkably popular with many Christians..

Evidently a great many Christians are also not familiar with that particular scripture.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
21. I went to a Thanksgiving ceremony one of my granddaughters was in at school a while back..
Wed May 30, 2012, 08:02 PM
May 2012

That was one of the songs they played and I heard all the kids singing along, they all knew it.

Yeah, it creeped me out out too.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
18. Good post rug. Makes it all worthwhile when I see inclusionary threads like this.
Wed May 30, 2012, 06:42 PM
May 2012

We are not enemies, just a bunch of thinking mammals flying through the universe on the same rock, with different ideas as to how we got here and from where we came. Where we come from is a question that will never be answered to the satisfaction of everyone. How we behave while we are here is the question we need to ask ourselves daily.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
24. Generally this kumbaya stuff gives me the creeps.
Thu May 31, 2012, 08:01 AM
May 2012

And I'll tell you why, because as we retreat into this happy, fuzzy, "let's all get along" territory we make it not only safer and easier for hateful fools like Fred Phelps et al to be equally justified in their beliefs - but also harder for anyone to criticize them.

Another glaring mistake made in this article is assuming that the wonderful binding and authority-enforcing aspects of religion can only come from religion. I can speak for myself in saying that I get these feelings from a sense of civic pride and respect for my community. I need no religion to do that.

Meh, it's just another in the long line of "loudmouth atheists need to shut up and go away" pieces that want those who are asking the tough questions to be silenced.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
25. I know what you're saying even though I'm a fuzzy, kumbayish, sensitive type who hates confrontation
Thu May 31, 2012, 08:16 AM
May 2012

But I don't think that's what this conversation is about. It strikes me as a honest exchange even if they're not hostile.

And it's more productive than spewing terms like madness and Jesus bites.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
26. There's another big problem I have with the HuffPo writeup.
Thu May 31, 2012, 09:27 AM
May 2012

With what McNerney said:

A recent New York Times article points out that secular liberal atheists tend to conflate authority, loyalty and sanctity with racism, sexism and homophobia.


If you go to the NY Times article, there is no mention whatsoever of atheists. Go ahead, do a search for the term. The article, talking about Jonathan Haidt's book and findings, is a commentary of liberalism's inability to address the moral reasoning of conservatism. Why was atheism brought into this?
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
27. You're right. That article discusses reason not atheism.
Thu May 31, 2012, 10:00 AM
May 2012

They are not synonymous.

This is the closest it comes to discussing belief and nonbelief: "You don’t have to believe in God to see this higher capacity as part of our nature. You just have to believe in evolution."

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