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Wed Mar 2, 2016, 02:38 PM

 

The same refusal to deal with maths/reality is reflected in both Sander's platform and his campaign

Like:
(1) What's the remaining path to nomination?
(2) How do you offer free health care to MORE people, without out of pocket costs, without limits on procedures and drugs, and give each household $5k more?
(3) How do you get support for single payer system when even Vermont didn't want to fund it?
(4) How much money can you really raise from a high frequency tax to fund free tuition and everything else that needs to be funded?

Sure you can dream big but they end up getting crushed when reality and maths overtake.

22 replies, 1018 views

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Reply The same refusal to deal with maths/reality is reflected in both Sander's platform and his campaign (Original post)
hill2016 Mar 2016 OP
Agnosticsherbet Mar 2016 #1
scscholar Mar 2016 #2
auntpurl Mar 2016 #9
WDIM Mar 2016 #3
auntpurl Mar 2016 #10
WDIM Mar 2016 #17
angrychair Mar 2016 #4
fleur-de-lisa Mar 2016 #5
gcomeau Mar 2016 #6
TheUndecider Mar 2016 #15
gcomeau Mar 2016 #16
revbones Mar 2016 #7
NCTraveler Mar 2016 #8
John Poet Mar 2016 #11
TheUndecider Mar 2016 #12
hobbit709 Mar 2016 #13
alcibiades_mystery Mar 2016 #14
thesquanderer Mar 2016 #18
GeorgeGist Mar 2016 #19
Adrahil Mar 2016 #20
ladjf Mar 2016 #21
Avalux Mar 2016 #22

Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 02:41 PM

1. You forgot, (5) What Congress passes the bills.

Though to be fair, Clinton also faces the same problem.

My hope is that Republican fears that Trump will lead to massive losses in the house and Senate are true. I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 02:46 PM

2. Maths?

 

There's more than one?

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Response to scscholar (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:02 PM

9. Yep, that's how they do it in the UK.

"Maths". I've lived here since 2008 and even I say it now lol.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 02:48 PM

3. Hillicon supporters should begin the party of "no we can't"

Or maybe that is what the Democratic party is becoming.

Supply all Americans with health care "no we can't"
Give all Americans a meaningful education without burdensome debt "no we can't"
Stop funding and arming Dictators and their terrorist proxy armies "no we can't"
Break up the banks and level the playing field so all American have equal opportunity "no we can't"
End Usury banking practices that steal from the hard workers of this country "no we can't"
Audit the Federal Reserve "no we can't"
Elect a nominee that is on the side of the American People and not the Banksters and War Profiteers "no we can't"

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Response to WDIM (Reply #3)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:03 PM

10. Or maybe Hillary supporters are the party of "how"?

We're just asking. How can it be done? That's not the same thing as "no we can't". But I've never seen an explanation that makes a lick of sense without Congress being overthrown. Which I would be in 100% favour of, but I'm just not holding my breath.

Incrementalism is the way things work in American politics.

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Response to auntpurl (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:16 PM

17. I think what the people of America have proven again and again.

Anything is possible when we actually try and we believe we can do it.

Bernie Sanders is the answer to how it can be done and it can be done.

People have become so use to Obama saying "no we can't" for 7 years that they have actually started to believe it.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 02:48 PM

4. I think you need to pay attention

To your own candidate:

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/271387-fbi-director-i-am-closely-involved-with-clinton-email-investigation

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/271194-final-batch-of-clinton-emails-released

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/morning-joe-panel-interviews-coming-clinton-email-investigation-problem-for-her-if-nominee/

http://www.npr.org/2016/02/27/468366616/investigation-into-clinton-emails-continues

Please don't insult my intelligence or your own by making excuses or spinning tales of "vast right-wing conspiracies" or laughable attacks on news sources. That is bullshit. What is happening is real. There are real federal judges. Real FBI agents. Real IGs. Real reports from real intelligence agencies. Real Justice department attorneys.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 02:51 PM

5. What do you hope to accomplish with your constant stream of snarky posts?

Do you think you will convert any Bernie supporters with this tactic? Highly unlikely.

It seems more probable that you could cause more people to dig in their heels and decide that they will never support Hillary. Is that what you want? If HRC wins the nomination, don't you think you will need us?

As has been stated numerous times by many SBS fans, we are in this for the long haul and won't stop supporting Bernie and flooding him with cash until, and if, he decides to end his campaign.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 02:52 PM

6. Sigh...

 

(1) What's the remaining path to nomination?


Winning enough pledged delegates in the remaining large majority of states. Duh. Easy? No. Possible? Yes. Don't like that? Tough shit.

(2) How do you offer free health care to MORE people, without out of pocket costs, without limits on procedures and drugs, and give each household $5k more?


Ask Canada. (Hint, it's in the cost savings from massive increases in system efficiency and price negotiating power... although how the fuck anyone who has spent any time on this forum over the years doesn't know that eludes me. Oh.... I see you haven't. That's probably why you're in the dark)

(3) How do you get support for single payer system when even Vermont didn't want to fund it?


By fucking FIGHTING FOR IT FOR ONCE.

And that doesn't mean he'll get it implemented. Not in 4 years. Probably not in 8. Nobody here is unaware of what GOP obstruction does to the Congress. But that''s not the goddamn point, shifting public opinion in the right direction so we get there fucking eventually is the point. Clinton won't even advocate. She won't move the needle. She won't try. She'll just write it off and move on to other things.

Some of us are capable of a long view.


(4) How much money can you really raise from a high frequency tax to fund free tuition and everything else that needs to be funded?


Not all, but some. Which is of course why Sanders isn't proposing to fund his entire agenda with just a high frequency trading tax. Sheesh.

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Response to gcomeau (Reply #6)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:12 PM

15. If you ask for half loaf you get crumbs

 

Ask for the whole loaf and maybe you'll get a couple slices

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Response to TheUndecider (Reply #15)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:14 PM

16. Yup, one of the errors Obama made.

 

Made the GOP health care reform plan basically his opening offer in an effort to be a reasonable compromiser... look what that got him.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 02:58 PM

7. ROFL.

 

Those are some rather silly questions coming from a Hillary supporter.

Even if we assumed you were serious

1. That's just insulting, since it should be easy enough for you to count.
2. This is just silliness. Bernie released his plan. Assuming you find fault with offering health care in this manner, perhaps you should just give up all pretense of being a Democrat and join the Republican party.
3. Many states didn't want Obamacare, they still don't. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have fought for it does it?
4. This has been demonstrated.

Wow, such willful ignorance.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:00 PM

8. K&R nt.

 

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:05 PM

11. How many emails does it take to indict Hillary?

 

There's math and there's math.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:08 PM

12. Maybe if spent less than 55% of our budget on the military

 

We could accomplish what MOST other 1st world countries already do
Why does it seem so impossible when many others are doing it already?

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:09 PM

13. And the refusal to deal with other than made up stuff is reflected in your OP.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 03:12 PM

14. And Lo! a Groundswell will come, and Maketh all the Hard to Go Away

 

Amen.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 04:15 PM

18. Answers, in case you actually want them and aren't just posturing

(1) by keeping it somewhat close for now, and hoping to make up shortcomings later in big liberal states like NY and CA

(2) you don't give each household $5k more. That's an example that applies to a family of four earning $50,000. Better off families don't come out that far ahead, and as you go up the scale, it starts to get balanced out by the more affluent who come out even and then beyond that, behind.

(3) What made it hard for Vermont is they tried to get all the revenue out of an income tax and payroll tax increase, and it made those taxes too high to be palatable. By comparison, if you look at Sanders' proposal, yes, he raises income tax rates for everyone, but by a much smaller amount... because he also establishes higher incremental rates for the wealthy, taxes capital gains at the same rate as ordinary income, eliminates some tax deductions, changes the tax on inherited wealth... money to pay for it comes from a variety of mechanisms. An individual state, realistically, doesn't have that kind of flexibility. State income taxes are based off federal income taxes. No state is going to have a completely different set of income tax rules than the federal government does, which would require everyone to file two completely different tax returns with different sets of rules. So the federal government has a lot more flexibility in how it can raise revenue than a state does, which can make more ambitious plans more achievable.

(4) The Wall Street speculation/tax raises $300 billion. Much more detail at https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-bernie-pays-for-his-proposals/ including a link to exactly how such a tax works, along with a list of how all the various programs are paid for.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 05:26 PM

19. What difference does it make ...

Hillary is inevitable.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 05:31 PM

20. #Berniemaths NT

 

It was practically a tie.

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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 07:31 PM

21. How is it that you figured this out but Bernie didn't?

Are you smarter than Bernie or do you think is knew about these shortcomings but decided to not tell us?

I ask these questions because I think Bernie has one of the most extraordinary minds in the Senate.
It doesn't seem likely that someone in the general public would be ahead of him. I certainly know that I'm not.
















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Response to hill2016 (Original post)

Wed Mar 2, 2016, 07:38 PM

22. Yes I know. We need to sit down, shut up, and accept the oligarchy like good little minions. n/t

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