2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumA few small steps HRC could take towards unity now:
1)A commitment that, if elected, TPP is dead;
2)A repudiation of Kissinger;
3)An admission that Bernie, despite his flaws in communication, is at least as committed to fighting institutional bigotry as she is.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)2) 96% of the country would say "who?"
3) Sanders has done well enough doing that on his own.
highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)The exact opposite of full of shit.
highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)be a full of shit deal for the average working person in the U.S. and perhaps all U.S. citizens in general.
Bleacher Creature
(11,237 posts)That's what's preventing people from uniting to prevent a Trump presidency? A few kind words about her predecessor (delivered mostly out of courtesy and respect for the office)????
Remember the scene in Die Hard when the bad guys needed to waste time and came up with a list of random demands?? This feels like that scene.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Why offer kind words for a war criminal? For a guy the people of Vietnam and Cambodia would have every right to compare to Hitler?
Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)She vacations with him! Pleezzzzeee.
TheProgressive
(1,656 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)1) He wasn't able, when speaking to AA audiences, to convey a sense of hope and inspiration, to convince them that our revolution would involve and include POC and be relevant to their needs . He conveyed anger, but that audience seemed to take it as though he was shouting AT them, rather than at the system that harms all of us;
2) He didn't seem to be able to convince POC that he understood that the effects of institutional racism meant that the programs he advocated would need to do more for those communities than for others. Obviously his programs would have had more effect among POC communities, but he somehow made it read to them as though he was proposing "one size fits all" approaches that regarded racism as a thing of the past;
3) He had trouble conveying that he understood(as I am convinced he truly does understand)that the struggles against group oppression were separate(though clearly related)to the struggle for economic justice. He needed to find the language that conveyed an intersectionality approach to this;
4) He phrased his critique of the shortcomings of the Obama administration on policy and tactics in a way that sounded like(even if it was never meant as) personal disrespect of the president. This may have started the rift the HRC campaign was so effective in exploiting. It's also a major part of the reason(though not the only one) the alliance with Cornel West ended up doing so much damage.
5) At the start of his campaign, he did not make it clear that he supported criminal justice reform and understood what BLM was and is justifiably enraged about on that issue. This was corrected, but by the time it was, the damage was done.
TheProgressive
(1,656 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)This is largely what they have said.
I still support Bernie and I'm glad he ran, but the points I listed here are probably the reasons he didn't get nominated.
We need to learn from this to avoid repeating this result.
It's meant in a positive spirit.
I was trying to communicate with the HQ in Burlington about this from the beginning of the campaign, but was unable to find any way to contact them.
George Eliot
(701 posts)It took him a while to realize it is more than economic justice. In his mind I think he believes that all the injustices start with economic injustice. I agree with him but he needed to unpack that to include everyone. Had he started with his new message: economic justice, environment justice, social justice, racial justice, his message would have been more inclusive and better understood. Those of us who supported him understood those messages from the beginning.
BTW, I did send an email contact at the bottom of his email and they emailed me back so they do get these things. I, too, wanted him to somehow diversity his message. It became too repetitive. Unpacking it would have been more engaging and increased how people understood it.
bvf
(6,604 posts)I mean, who among the rational, of course.
Tarc
(10,472 posts)...what do we need Bernie for?
There's a bit of calculation here y'know, by both sides. The Clinton camp shows Bernie that if he decides to hold onto his poutrage, they have a solid alternative voice to shore up progressive appeal. The Warren camp positions itself to be the odds-on favorite for the VP slot, something that was never going to be offered to Bernie.
This is politics. Don't bring checkers to a chess game.
msongs
(67,199 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Most likely, Bernie doesn't even want to be veep. You don't need to keep dissing him anymore(It's not as if California will flip if you let up).
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)A LOT of Hillary supporters here have flat-out no fucking clue how to support Hilalry. They just signed up to rage and hate against Sanders at every moment.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)n/t.
QC
(26,371 posts)People who spend their every waking moment trying to drive wedges between Democrats probably don't have the best interests of Democrats at heart.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I don't trust people who are so insulated that their greatest concern is "team pride."
George Eliot
(701 posts)I've had a thread locked due to "should have been on primary" but it really didn't have to do with primaries until people started the war again. I wanted a discussion about why Bernie surrogates are out of the picture and not part of conversation since the primaries are basically over. I don't understand why they aren't still part of the GE discussion. It wasn't a primary thing at all. But I could be wrong. Maybe it turned into a primary discussion. Don't know how to control that. I intended it to be a political discussion.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It's not enough for them to win...they have to CRUSH.
George Eliot
(701 posts)That's why she didn't endorse. He put it on front page which will make her job much easier.
LuvLoogie
(6,855 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)She offered a great analysis of how gender race and class affect rights, and how access to health care is also a right that need protections.
Someone who has to pony up $5000 for an abortion half a state away might not really have the TPP or Kissinger at the top of their emergencies list.
George Eliot
(701 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)on the intensity of their commitment to defending choice, that would be a completely(instead of partially) valid observation.
DLCWIdem
(1,558 posts)I disagree, when Rachel Maddow went to Bernie about what tRump said about women being punished Bernie said thats bad...yada yada yada. Now can we get back to " real issues". That doesn't show an intensity about this issue.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Planned Parenthood has done heroic work over the years, but they aren't infallible. And they should have stayed neutral, since there was no difference between the two candidates on choice or on any other issue involving women.
PP would have lost nothing if Bernie had been the nominee.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)You insist Clinton make a statement as you excuse Sanders dismissive state to women. Ya you all get it.
DLCWIdem
(1,558 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Remember the videos where they were accused of selling fetal organs? The ones the GOP candidates brought up in the debates, and threatened the PP funding over?
Establishment? Fuck anyone who thinks that.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)We were all just as deeply outraged about it, no matter which Democratic presidential candidate we supported.
We all "Stood with PP" in THAT sense.
There was never any reason to use choice as a dividing point in the primaries.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)In fact he spoke about the videos like he might believe they had credence, so, in fact, at the end of the day, the right person for women won in this campaign.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)With Richardson's agology about the tone of video. He couldn't be bothered with getting informed as PP was being handed their ass but agreed an apology was in order for the tone of video. Not that he knew, because he didn't get informed or do his homework. He didn't, though, say anything about the rest of Richardson statement that day.
It wasn't important enough so in essence he hurt us. Forget neutral or helpful, but hurt us because he was too busy.
Clinton was well ahead, informed and addressed the issue like a progressive not giving quarter. A couple weeks later Sanders finally gave us a supportive statement.
So no. You do not get to rewrite history. And do not even think women and PP didn't notice.
lancer78
(1,495 posts)say that she was willing to compromise on a womans right to chose if exceptions were given for the safety of the mother and rape/incest?
George Eliot
(701 posts)All those who are in administrative high salaried positions have to be part of the establishment. They protect their interests by doing business with the establishment. They rely on these people to keep them in business and the Republicans aren't about to do it. It is obvious on its face that these organizations have ongoing political connections to protect. That doesn't mean they aren't pro-Bernie individually. Their public face must maintain and protect their current affiliations. Part of doing business.
Bernie is so smart I don't think he realizes he needs to explain. Comprehending his meaning when you understand the political nature of national organizations isn't hard. He's totally for Planned Parenthood. He'd probably go to bat for increasing funds and legislating for them. That's precisely why he wants the money back from the top.
I'm a teacher and my union all went Clinton. If you knew the teachers I know, most of us went Sanders. But the Union bosses stick with the people with whom they rub shoulders or think have the best chance of winning.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)He wasn't smart enough to communicate that his contempt wasn't really comtempt, and therefore he lost.
It's not our responsibility to trust him, it's his responsibly to earn trust, and he failed,
George Eliot
(701 posts)He had a learning curve. He's less practiced than his opponent.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Of our women and girls. Who the duck are you to dismiss these women?
George Eliot
(701 posts)democrattotheend
(11,605 posts)I don't see why people say it is pie in the sky. It is how it used to be. 60 years ago, my grandfather, who grew up in a poor section of Brooklyn with parents lacking a high school education, was able to put himself through a public college just by working in the cafeteria. He then became a pretty successful journalist, worked hard, saved prudently, and was able to live a nice retirement and leave a little bit for my mom and her sisters. I feel like stories like his are either impossible or highly improbable now, in large part due to the cost of college.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)DLCWIdem
(1,558 posts)IMO college should be affordable but not free. We should bring college costs down and not have so much debt. However, People do not value what they get for free. Someone should have to work for it. I also fear that free college will bring down the value of a college education, so that coming out of college the only jobs available will be flipping burgers. The reason you go to college is to better yourself. I am also worried that the lower middle class will be paying in taxes for the upper middle class to go college and get the better jobs.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)That way you'd have a nominal fee, which by itself would be enough to change how people saw the project of learning.
We should also structure the college experience so that it's also easy for people to keep taking courses part-time while working(even throughout their lives)and easy to go back to college after retiring.
As a society, we should value education and the wish to be educated as good things IN THEMSELVES, not just as part of "preparing people for a job".
DLCWIdem
(1,558 posts)You don't know me but I put a extreme value on education. IMO it is one of the moat important things in life. That is precisely why I don't want it to be taken for granted. I had to wait for 7 years taking a few classes at a time before I could go full time as I wasn't eligible for financial aid. I wanted a job that fulfilled me and let me use my mind and my creativity. That is what i am talking about when I say a better job.
But when I was going to school there were programs such as one that forgave your student loan if you went into teaching. I would like to see some programs like that earning your way not just having it handed to.you. Such a program was also good because the ones going to college for business who are going for the jobs or to get a "better" job would have to pay the loans back.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)I respect the efforts you put in towards your own education.
And I remember those forgiveness programs(that concept was basically the set-up for the show "Northern Exposure" , and they were a good thing.
And I wish it had been easier for you TO go full-time earlier, and that it were easier for everyone to get all the knowledge they wish to seek without having to go into financial hardship to get it.
But to me, it's not about anything being "handed to" people...it's the idea that being able to pursue knowledge, throughout your life, should be something people should be able to do simply because having people constantly learning and seeking to learn is always a good thing for any society that encourages it.
In this country, under our system, education for any purpose OTHER than job training is now treated as a luxury, as a privilege, as an indulgence. This is one of the major reasons there is such hatred of intellectuals and contempt for the idea of learning-for-learning's sake in this country.
We need redistribution of knowledge just as much as redistribution of wealth.
democrattotheend
(11,605 posts)Like I said, my grandfather had a working scholarship, where he earned his whole tuition by working in the cafeteria. Now federal work study pays barely enough to afford a meal in the cafeteria on campus, let alone tuition.
George Eliot
(701 posts)So many students graduate high school without the requisites for college that community college becomes their only choice. Would you consider free community college? High school can be a tough place for a lot of kids. Community college offers academic as well as technical courses. I'm a big believer in community colleges to help kids become adults.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Legalization is supported by a majority of Americans, and it would go a long way towards shoring up enthusiasm with Millennials.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)It's the only reasonable position, and is a big reason we have such an insane incarceration rate. It also is enforced at the whims of law enforcement, which too often means POC's and hippies are selected for prosecution while others are not.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Why keep spending money to fight it, when we can legalize, regulate, and tax it and fund things like services and infrastructure?
http://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/index.ssf/2016/05/oregon_collected_105_million_i.html
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The private prison industry hates, hates, hates the idea of legalization, as do the cops, lawyers, prosecutors, drug testing industry, alcohol industry and a host of others whose business model will be damaged or destroyed.
Her strongest demographic, the olds, will have a collective reefer madness meltdown.
Hillary is an authoritarian dominator at heart and as such hates the idea of giving up any sort of power, the drug war represents raw political and social power. The authoritarian follower responses to her here are off the charts.
Four days. Ah ah ah...
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I mean, look at marriage equality. 12 years ago it was "the threat to traditional marriage" and the powers-that-be couldn't run away from it fast enough.
So even if she's inclined to do the right thing she may still be listening to the voices of conventional wisdom from 20 years ago.
The polling and the momentum will make it inevitable, though. That genie can't be stuffed back in the bottle.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Like marriage equality, I don't care who gets married, it's no skin off my nose and never was. I'm not going to lie and say I was a huge advocate but if you had asked me even thirty years or more ago if anyone should be able to marry who wants to I would have shrugged and given the same answer.
I just don't see why people care so damn much about what others do or don't with their naughty bits.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I mean, if everyone's a consenting adult, yadda yadda. I guess I just don't have that gene for wanting to tell other people what to do.
I think there was a time, years ago, when I didn't quite grok why the semantic distinction between "civil union" and "marriage" was as important as it is.. but it finally dawned on me that calling it by a different name, just to placate the fundies--- ahhhh, fuck em.
I think I might have been at that "why don't we do it in the road" show.
aikoaiko
(34,127 posts)And it came from one of the biggest Wall Street Democrats in the Senate, Corey Booker. This stunning truth telling in the face of activists and pundits painting a very negative picture of Bernie on racial justice back in August 2015.
Booker added that his Senate colleagues record is one of deep respect for civil rights. Bernie has become somebody I have tremendous respect for and is an ally of mine in addressing issues in the United States Senate that affect minority communities, he said.
He has a long record of civil rights, Booker told host George Stephanopoulos on ABCs This Week.
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/250686-booker-sanders-has-long-record-of-civil-rights
I have big problems with how Corey Booker is cozy with big money, but I will always be grateful he spoke out against the racist smears and innuendos against Bernie.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)tandem5
(2,072 posts)*picks up heavy beige phone receiver, turns swivel chair slightly, looks over and winks across the garish faux wooden desktop*