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Fri Nov 20, 2015, 11:06 AM

One big difference between the US and Scandinavia/Western Europe that Bernie keeps missing.

They have a tiny fraction of the gun violence we have in the US. Has he not noticed that?

On a per capita basis, we have close to 10 times the number of gun deaths per year of Denmark. We currently have about 30,000 gun deaths per year. If we had Denmark levels, we'd be at 3,000 or 4,000. As a point of comparison, the number of Americans killed in Iraq and Afghanistan combined is about 10,000. And that's total since the wars started, not per year.

In my mind, this is a huge blind spot of Bernie's. He's right to point out that we're the only advanced country without universal healthcare. He's right to point out that we have by far the highest rate of incarceration. And that our safety net pales in comparison to Western Europe. And that we lost a lot of lives in pointless wars.

But when it comes to the 30,000 gun deaths per year, he wants us to stop shouting at each other. What? Does he think guns are the only controversial issue? Really? As if health care isn't a controversial issue. Or foreign policy. Or, frankly, everything.

Why not insert a few more lines into his rousing speeches. "We are the only advanced country that doesn't require handguns to be registered" would be a good start. Or "we have 5 to 10 times the number of per capita gun deaths of other advanced countries." Or "parents in England don't have the same worry that their kids are going to be shot."

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Reply One big difference between the US and Scandinavia/Western Europe that Bernie keeps missing. (Original post)
DanTex Nov 2015 OP
Cosmic Kitten Nov 2015 #1
DanTex Nov 2015 #3
Aerows Nov 2015 #60
Bread and Circus Nov 2015 #2
DanTex Nov 2015 #6
Bread and Circus Nov 2015 #11
Aerows Nov 2015 #62
Aerows Nov 2015 #61
Cali_Democrat Nov 2015 #4
Kalidurga Nov 2015 #5
DanTex Nov 2015 #7
Kalidurga Nov 2015 #8
DanTex Nov 2015 #9
Kalidurga Nov 2015 #10
DanTex Nov 2015 #14
dreamnightwind Nov 2015 #12
DanTex Nov 2015 #15
dreamnightwind Nov 2015 #21
DanTex Nov 2015 #25
dreamnightwind Nov 2015 #59
Bluenorthwest Nov 2015 #22
DanTex Nov 2015 #26
Kentonio Nov 2015 #33
DanTex Nov 2015 #36
Kentonio Nov 2015 #44
DanTex Nov 2015 #51
Kentonio Nov 2015 #56
DanTex Nov 2015 #57
Kentonio Nov 2015 #58
leftofcool Nov 2015 #48
Kentonio Nov 2015 #49
Admiral Loinpresser Nov 2015 #35
DanTex Nov 2015 #38
Admiral Loinpresser Nov 2015 #43
DanTex Nov 2015 #52
Admiral Loinpresser Nov 2015 #53
Gregorian Nov 2015 #13
DanTex Nov 2015 #16
Bread and Circus Nov 2015 #17
DanTex Nov 2015 #18
Bread and Circus Nov 2015 #19
DanTex Nov 2015 #23
Bread and Circus Nov 2015 #27
DanTex Nov 2015 #31
Admiral Loinpresser Nov 2015 #37
DanTex Nov 2015 #39
Admiral Loinpresser Nov 2015 #45
Hiraeth Nov 2015 #20
DanTex Nov 2015 #24
Hiraeth Nov 2015 #28
DanTex Nov 2015 #40
Hiraeth Nov 2015 #54
Bread and Circus Nov 2015 #29
DanTex Nov 2015 #32
Bread and Circus Nov 2015 #41
DanTex Nov 2015 #42
Bread and Circus Nov 2015 #46
DanTex Nov 2015 #50
Gregorian Nov 2015 #30
DanTex Nov 2015 #34
SunSeeker Nov 2015 #47
Romulox Nov 2015 #55
AgingAmerican Nov 2015 #63

Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 11:12 AM

1. Do those countries have a military-entertainment-industrial complex...

that promotes and glorifies violence
the way our *exceptional* culture does?
DO those countries embrace the same
*manifest destiny* that the US does?

Because culture, the moral and values
we collectively hold, has more to do
with behavior and expectations than
simple statistics.

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Response to Cosmic Kitten (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 11:17 AM

3. They watch the same movies and play the same video games we do.

I'm pretty sure that if Bernie was the progressive on guns, and Hillary was the centrist, you wouldn't me making those NRA talking points.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 06:08 PM

60. Tex, where do you stand on guns?

 

I would like to know.

Please elaborate your position on guns.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 11:16 AM

2. I think it is your blind spot, not Bernie's. Gun violence is a function of poverty...

Not the other way around.

I have been to Norway. It was immaculate. Lot's of alcohol. Lot's of partying. People walking around the streets in Bergen and Oslo way late past midnight. You could legally camp almost anywhere. All kinds of people mingling. I never felt unsafe even when I slept in parks and camped in the woods outide Bergen.

Yet gun ownership in Norway is widespread, semi-automatics are legal, and gun violence is not a massive chronic issue there like here.

What's the difference?

Poverty, depair, and lack of education.

Dantex, as usual, you have it backwards.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #2)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 11:27 AM

6. Of course, because there's 10 times as much poverty in the US as in Europe.



Ah, the NRA talking points...

The truth is, overall rates of violent crime in Western Europe are similar to ours. But since we have more guns, crimes are much more likely to end up in death or serious injury. The problem is the gun availability.

As for Norway, gun ownership in Norway is not nearly as widespread as in the US, and handguns are tightly regulated -- handguns are only allowed for sport shooting, and a handgun license requires 6 months to get, during which you have to actively practice at a gun club. Then you need a written recommendation from the gun club president submitted to the police. Also they have strick laws that guns must be stored in safes, and the police can inspect safes. So I'm sure you partied hard in Norway, but you certainly didn't buy a handgun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway

On the other hand, in the US, in most states, with zero experience, you can walk into a gun store and buy 5 handguns in less than an hour, and the federal government is legally barred from keeping a registry of who owns what guns.

You're right, though, Norway has more guns per capita than most of Europe, and they also have a higher-than average number of gun deaths per capita.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:14 PM

11. Norway has a very low poverty rate and low gun violence rate compared to the US

You are saying somehow gun violence causes poverty but the reality is poverty causes gun violence.

You have it backwards.

It is not a talking point. It is the truth.

I believe in strict gun control. I believe every gun owner and gun user would need a license with fees and educational classes and recurrent testing. I also believe every gun should be registered and have an engraved ID number (unless it is a historical gun) that is registered. Any gun that is found not to be registered and/or not attached to a licensed owner should be destroyed.

That is what we really need and goes way past Mrs. Weathervane's "common sense" gun laws.

However that has nothing to do with the fact that poverty is a root cause of gun violence and not the other way around.

You can



All you want but you are still wrong.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #11)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 06:12 PM

62. DanTex won't offer his prodigious

 

view on gun violence while lecturing everybody else on it.

My views are well known.

I would think a Texan would be just as proud as a person from MS that grew up in New Orleans to share their views.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 06:10 PM

61. You keep on ranting

 

but don't give *your* view on guns.

Step up to the plate and take a position.

Complaining about somebody *else's* position, when you can't even state your own is kind of um... let's see, what word should I use?

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 11:20 AM

4. Unless you're discussing an issue Bernie is comfortable discussing such as income inequality,

 

you're shouting.

It's very condescending.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 11:27 AM

5. Why does it seem the only violence that matters to some people is gun violence?

The issue is violence. We need to talk about that not just gun violence. If we can get a handle on what causes our society to be so violent, then gun deaths will go down, suicides will go down, domestic battering will go down.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #5)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 11:29 AM

7. Another NRA talking point. Gun violence is far more lethal than other forms of violence.

Our society is not more violent than Western Europe. Overall rates of violent crime are about the same. We have a much higher homicide rate, though, because we have far more crimes committed with guns, and that results in death much more frequently.

In other words, you're just as likely to be assaulted or robbed in Europe, but the person assaulting you or robbing you is much less likely to have a gun, so you're much less likely to be killed or seriously injured.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #7)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 11:54 AM

8. So you don't want to address the underlying causes of violence I get it

It's a lot harder to talk about over all violence.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #8)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:06 PM

9. Of course I do. You just want to ignore the central role that guns play.

Like I said, or overall rates of crime and violence are similar to Western Europe. Sure, they can be better, both here and there, but the big difference is the guns. You and Bernie want to ignore the guns, I wonder why that is?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #9)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:10 PM

10. Well it's really hard to take this serious

My father was very violent he had lots and lots of guns. He never shot anyone and your assertion that violent crime here is the same as most of Europe http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/these-are-the-10-most-violent-countries-in-the-world--bJeHFgPXKbx doesn't really hold water. We have a violence problem. Guns are a big part of it sure. But, the problem again is people are willing to act violently that needs to be addressed. And we have to care more about people who commit suicide and not just pretend that isn't part of the problem.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #10)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 01:00 PM

14. Violent crime rates in the US and Europe are similar, this is a simple fact, verified by statistics.

That list you quoted was a "Peace Index", it wasn't based on violent crime statistics. International comparisons on violent crime statistics can be found here:
https://data.unodc.org/
Look around a bit, and you'll find the same thing that everyone researching gun violence has found, which is that the US is not a uniquely violent or criminal nation compared to Europe, Canada, Australia, etc., we simply have more homicides because more of our crimes are committed with guns.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:37 PM

12. You mis-characterize his statement

"he wants us to stop shouting at each other"

What this refers to is the exact opposite of how you are using it against Bernie. He wants us to stop using gun policy as a wedge issue (which is what you yourself are doing) so we can actually enact reforms to work on the problems you address, rather than just doubling down on the two parties' entrenched positions, which each side uses for political posturing, and that gets nothing done. That's what Bernie's statement means.

I hate guns personally, but I don't think they're the primary problem, they're the weapon of choice for desperate disempowered people.

I support any sensible gun regulation. Suing gun manufacturers for the wrongful use of their products doesn't seem too reasonable to me (I know your OP didn't mention this, but it is often used against Bernie that he doesn't support this).

I'd support a waiting period, ending the gunshow loophole, a gun registration database, etc.

I'm a little concerned about mental health criteria. Most gun violence happens when violently inclined people act out in rage or in crime. I don't think there's a high correlation to any reliably diagnosed psychological disorders.

The real problem that needs addressing is that people in this society, many of them, are in huge trouble in their lives, and there is no positive societal mechanism to proactively work with such people. Most gun violence could be prevented by such programs. For example, why not have funded support programs for anyone who has income insecurity, whether they qualify for unemployment or disability or not (most people fall through the cracks and are receiving neither benefit).

Or a funded support program for people going through life crisis, whether they lost a child, are having difficulty in a relationship or dealing with ending a relationship, there should be many categories that would be eligible for support. This support should include a mechanism to actually plug people into positive social environments (sports or crafts activities, or work apprenticeship opportunities, why not have social organizations for the recently single, or for people dealing with dependencies). Everything is crisis and punitive focused, rather than a caring system that identifies at-risk people before a crisis and actually tries to address their needs.

Try that, and watch gun violence go down, I guarantee you it would work. These are the kind of things a country like Norway is probably better at doing than our own country.

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Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #12)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 01:02 PM

15. What makes gun violence a "wedge issue" and not things like healthcare.

Why doesn't he want to stop using healthcare as a wedge issue? Or inequality? Or anything else?

Who decides what is "wedge" and what is not?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:02 PM

21. That's all you respond to from that thoughtful post?

IMHO it is not a wedge issue, it is used as a wedge issue by both parties and by your OP. And that's what Bernie meant by the shouting. Care to discuss any of the rest of it, or are you just trying to score political points?

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Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #21)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:37 PM

25. That's the question that I had.

Let me rephrase. Why is it that when I challenge Bernie on guns, I get accused of using guns as a "wedge issue", whereas when other people challenge, let's say, Hillary on single payer or $15 or whatever, somehow that is not considered "wedge".

Why not? Next time someone challenges Hillary for not supporting single payer are you going to accuse them of using healthcare as a "wedge"?

Since you asked, I'll also respond to this.
The real problem that needs addressing is that people in this society, many of them, are in huge trouble in their lives, and there is no positive societal mechanism to proactively work with such people. Most gun violence could be prevented by such programs. For example, why not have funded support programs for anyone who has income insecurity, whether they qualify for unemployment or disability or not (most people fall through the cracks and are receiving neither benefit).

No, that's not the "real problem." At least not when it comes to gun violence. What you are describing is a problem, but the real problem is that there are too many guns and not enough gun regulations.

As I've mentioned in many other responses, Western Europe doesn't have a significantly lower rate of violent crime than we do. We're somewhere in the middle of the developed world. Where we stick out is in homicide, and gun homicide specifically. The arguments about other social ills or inequality or whatever else do not fit the data.

The reason why we are an outlier when it comes to homicide and not other categories of violent crime is because guns are much more lethal than other weapons. A crime committed with a gun is much more likely to result in serious injury or death. An escalating argument or fight is much more likely to wind up with someone dead if there are guns in the picture.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #25)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 06:07 PM

59. Well it seems to me you just want a way to go after Bernie on this

rather than being someone who is looking to reduce gun deaths. I could be mistaken about that, or both things could be true, but that is my impression, which is why I think you're using it as a wedge issue. My opinion on this is informed by you doing this on pretty much any issue you can with Bernie.

Re your single payer example, from my perspective at least, I very much want and think we have to have single payer in this country, no matter who makes it happen. The fact that our corporate Democrats don't even bother to advocate for it is very telling, their donors are lined up against it. Nothing wedge about that.

I don't know that your assertion about violent crime rates in Europe is accurate. I'd need to see data by country, and it would need to separate out suicide deaths or estimate how many of them were from that, and it would also depend on what country and that country's gun policies and their infrastructure for social support. Then I'd need similar stats here in the U.S.

Suicide should be prevented in most cases, but it isn't the same as killing someone else, and in the cases where it should be prevented it should be done by giving the person the kind of support I was suggesting in my earlier post, preferably before they get to that point. In other cases, suicide is used as a way to deal with our lack of death with dignity, or assisted suicide, laws, where people are terminal and would rather choose their time rather than going through hell on earth before they die, and our for-profit healthcare system that will milk hundreds of thousands of dollars out of a terminal patient's insurer, prolonging their life in agony and pointlessness for the sake of making more money.

I have heard, though haven't looked into in any depth, that Australia reduced gun deaths through gun control, which supports your point, though all it addresses is the endpoint, not doing anything about the tragedy that so many people are in rage or despair that leads to the murders.

I'm curious, do you think Hillary is going to go after guns? I don't. If you have some info saying she will, in ways that Bernie won't, what exactly is it? I would be happy to have less guns around, though I've never seen Hillary as a way to get to that. The differences I have seen on this issue appeared insubstantial to me, and I doubted her resolve to carry them forward past the campaign.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:04 PM

22. Have you noticed that we keep getting nowhere on guns? I have, and that means that whatever

 

we have been doing is not working. People say 'after Sandy Hook nothing got done' and it didn't. But why? Well for one thing the law that was presented was one that would not have prevented Sandy Hook so logic was absent and instead of discussions we had name calling matches by persons who claim to 'care deeply about the issue'. They don't care, if they did they would treat it with respect instead of exploiting it as a reason to shout at each other 'Gun Grabbers!' and 'Gun Humpers!' they shout, then no law gets made, more people die and here we are.

So maybe the idea is to go about it differently and see if that gets any traction because this business of doing it in passionate outbursts after each shooting is not working at all. It's not working. So stop it and do something else.

Discuss it or drop it. I am personally sick of seeing such a very serious issue treated like argument chow on DU. Both sides, revolting people. Using the issue, using the victims without any clear strategy to make change, just a bunch of insults to trade with the other side. It's nonsense, and that' is proven by the fact that nothing ever gets done about guns.

Today, guns are so important to you that we are discussing the word 'shouting' instead of the word 'victim', for example. And that is your choice.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #22)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:41 PM

26. Have you noticed that we keep getting nowhere on income inequality?

Do you think progressives should stop talking about it? Stop yelling about "1%ers" and hedge funds and Wall Street, and instead try to find some common ground?

Do you find both sides of the income inequality debate "revolting"?

Or is it just guns where progressives should be quiet and respectful of the GOP and the NRA.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #26)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:23 PM

33. Except there's a difference you seem to have missed..

 

On guns the country is about evenly split, on income there are about 5% doing well, and about 95% getting screwed. There is no reason to find 'common ground' on an issue that disproportionate.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #33)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:28 PM

36. Actually, polls show that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of stronger gun laws.

Even things like national gun registration, which politicians don't even talk about, poll well over 50%.

Also, you're assuming that because 95% of the population is "getting screwed", that means they agree with Bernie's agenda. That's not true. Also 95% of Americans don't actually think they are "getting screwed", whether it's true or not.

The fact of the matter is that all issues are contentious. If they weren't contentious, then we'd already have done something about it. The issues where we don't make progress are issues where people disagree. That doesn't mean we should "stop shouting" about them, whether it's guns, or global warming, or anything else.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #36)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:49 PM

44. Hmm..

 

"Actually, polls show that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of stronger gun laws."

Which he also supports, so where's the wedge?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #44)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 04:23 PM

51. I don't know where the wedge is. People have accused me of bringing up a "wedge issue" in this OP.

I'm still trying to figure out what they meant. I'm as confused as you.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #51)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 04:42 PM

56. Both Clinton and O'Malley have tried to make it a wedge issue to be fair

 

Which is annoying to Sanders supporters because the differences between all 3 candidates genuinely aren't that great.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #56)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 05:11 PM

57. Only in as much as Sanders has tried to make things like Wall Street a wedge issue.

Unless the definition of a "wedge issue" is simply something that Bernie doesn't talk about.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #57)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 05:33 PM

58. They have substantative differences on Wall Street. Guns, not so much.

 

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #33)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:58 PM

48. Well, there you go, Dan

No reason to find common ground on gun control.

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #48)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 04:17 PM

49. Well done for saying the exact opposite of what I just said and attributing it to me..

 

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Response to DanTex (Reply #15)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:26 PM

35. Who decides?

The person who uses the issue to divide people. HRC uses many issues as wedge issues. Bernie is always seeking to unite people.

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #35)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:30 PM

38. How do you determine whether someone is using an issue to divide people or whether someone is

using an issue to unite people? It seems to me that the basic standard at work is that Bernie says or advocates for something, he's being inclusive, but if Hillary does it, she's being divisive.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #38)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:46 PM

43. One quick example:

when you use innuendo to accuse your opponent of sexism, that is using the issue as a wedge issue.

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #43)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 04:25 PM

52. Accusing your opponent of being in the pocket of Wall Street would be

using financial reform as a wedge issue, would it not?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #52)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 04:33 PM

53. So the people who support Wall St.

are being divided from those who dislike Wall St? I don't know ANYBODY who likes Wall Street, so how is it a wedge issue?

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:50 PM

13. He's right on target: It's the income inequality.

People with money tend to not pick up guns. They've got better things to do. They aren't desperate.

Fix the fiscal problems, and the social problems will follow. Of course we do both, but that's the gist of it.

Clinton said "It's the economy, stupid", but he didn't have a clue what he was talking about. He was speaking about making the rich richer.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #13)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 01:04 PM

16. This is clearly false, because Western Europe, Canada, etc. have similar rates of violent crime,

but their rates of homicide and gun violence are much lower, because gun crimes are much more lethal than non-gun crimes. Our inequality does not make us more violent or criminal. We just kill each other more because its so easy to get a gun.

And if you look at the rest of the developed world, they have much stricter gun control laws. Apparently they don't believe your talking point that you don't need gun control as long as you have a safety net.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 01:39 PM

17. You can't be entitled to your own set of "facts"

There is massive evidence and many studies that show crime and violent crime is very closely a function of poverty.

You are so wrong it is beyond having a reasonable discussion.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #17)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 01:46 PM

18. It's simple to look up the crime statistics comparing the US and Western Europe.

https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime.html

And, aside from homicide, we are about average. In homicide, we are much higher, and the differential is almost entirely due to gun homicides.

Yes, poverty causes violent crime, but the main reason that we have more homicide in gun violence than Western Europe is not poverty, it's guns.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 01:50 PM

19. Look up published studies as crime and violent crime as a function of poverty.

I believe those studies much more than I believe you and your specious analysis.

Please, do your homework before you post next time.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #19)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:30 PM

23. Look up studies comparing gun availability, gun violence and violent crime in the US and Europe.

Please, do your homework before you post next time.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #23)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:51 PM

27. You are so far away from your original point it is obvious you know you are wrong...

..and painted yourself in a corner.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:20 PM

31. My point has remained the same: the US has a gun violence problem that is unique in the

entire developed world, and Bernie fails to see this.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #31)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:29 PM

37. He sees this clearly.

That's why he wants to strengthen gun control laws. That's why he has a lifetime rating of D- from the NRA.

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #37)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:32 PM

39. I don't hear it in his speeches. Like I said in the OP, he likes to draw comparisons to

Western Europe and Scandinavia, and one of the most glaring such comparisons is on gun policy. It seems to me that this is a blind spot for him. It would be very easy, and totally in keeping with his general campaign theme, to put in some lines about how Western Europe, with their tight gun laws and licensing and registration and all that, has done hugely better than the US at protecting its citizens from gun violence.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #39)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:51 PM

45. I have heard it in his speeches more than once.

I think he isn't using it as much now, because HRC was fairly effective in playing the demagogue on this issue in the first debate, so it isn't good politics to talk about it now as much. He is on the attack now and scoring well about Wall Street. This is her Achilles heel in the primary. It will also work very well for him in the GE.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #18)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 01:53 PM

20. So then, if Western Europe had more guns they would have the same statistics, right?

Isn't that, in essence what you are implying?

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Response to Hiraeth (Reply #20)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:31 PM

24. Yes, if they had more guns and our same lax gun laws, their homicide rate would be much higher.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:56 PM

28. Any Europeans want to chime in here .... ? Not sure but,

almost sounds like an insult to me. Curious as to what others think about your statement. Would make for an interesting OP, I think:




Fri Nov 20, 2015, 01:31 PM

DanTex

24. Yes, if they had more guns and our same lax gun laws, their homicide rate would be much higher.

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Response to Hiraeth (Reply #28)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:33 PM

40. How is that an insult? It's praising them on their strong and successful gun regulations.

I also think that if they didn't have universal healthcare, they would have higher infant mortality and lower life expectancy.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #40)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 04:41 PM

54. because you are saying the exact opposite. The case is being made that

a more fair and equally social just economy is WHY Europeans do not seek a permanent solution.

You are saying they will if ONLY they had access to the GUN. Why would they want to shoot it out?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:58 PM

29. If your analysis was correct (it isn't) then there would be no such thing as regional concentration

...of crime.

Vermont has lax gun laws but a low homicide rate.

Detroit and many certain other major cities have more strict gun laws yet their homicide rate is through the roof.

If you were correct the opposite would be true.

But alas, as usual, you have it backwards.

Where in America is crime the least? Answer = wealthy suburbs. Why: more money and better education.

Dan, please take down your OP and consider revising.

Anyone with half a brain would know on its face your argument is wrong and your weird way of parsing numbers is a conclusion in search of an argument.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #29)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:22 PM

32. Huh? Of course there's regional concentration of crime.

Crime is much greater where there are urban areas and population density, for example, which explains why Vermont has such low homicide rate.

You're making all the usual NRA fallacies. The fact that guns aren't the only factor contributing to homicide rates doesn't mean that they aren't a major factor. And in terms of the difference between the US and Europe, they are the largest factor.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #32)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:34 PM

41. Crime per capita by region accounts for density. Go look at the numbers.

You are the one making statistical leaps in logic.

It is just a fact that in the United States that crime and gun related violence is proportional to poverty.

You don't have to be a genius to see that.

You don't have to cherry pick numbers and rearrange them any way you want to see that.

Despair, destitution, lack of education, and lack of hope leads to crime and violence.

Get a clue.

In your bizarro world I am somehow supposed to believe wealthy suburbs are every bit as dangerous as the South Side of Chicago and Eight Mile in Detroit.

Yet in reality, they are not, despite being in the same damn country with the same goddam gun laws or laws that are more stringent in the areas with the most crime.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #41)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:41 PM

42. There's more crime per capita where there is more density.

Cities have more violent crime (per capita) than rural areas. Everyone understands this. Except you, apparently, another insight into just how little you know about violent crime and gun violence.

Gun violence is correlated to a lot of things, and gun availability is one of them. When it comes to the difference between wealthy suburbs and poor inner cities, the poverty is the key factor. But when it comes to the differential between the US and Western Europe, gun availability is the key factor.

And the evidence for this, as I've explained over and over, is that the US doesn't have abnormal levels of overall violent crime by international standards. If there were some other societal factor at work, we'd see an overall lower level of violent crime in Europe. But we don't. Europe has poverty, and gangs, and inner cities and all that, but very little gun violence. It's the guns.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #42)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:53 PM

46. There is way more poverty in more dense areas. Inner city poverty..hello?h

Jesus Christ...

So now you are blaming crime on density?

Do you not know rural America is going through a massive drug crisis with meth, heroin, and morphine addiction?

You are out of touch.

Further you have confused Scandinavia with "the rest of Europe".

If you are gonna talk Scandinavia, then talk Scandinavia.

Bernie doesn't tout all of Europe or many countries in Europe. He specifically talks about Denmark and alludes to other successful features of other successful Scandinavian countries.

What you are doing is combining a bunch of different things in a logic salad that would have me believe that poverty doesnt directly lead to all kinds of crime and that wealthy suburbs are more dangerous than poor inner cities because of their lax gun laws in the burbs.

This is my last post in this thread because I have to go to work. Have a good day.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #46)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 04:22 PM

50. Sometimes, yes, sometimes no, but that doesn't explain the difference in violent crime.

Yes, population density is correlated with crime rates. Again, everyone who studies violent crime knows this.

And I'm not confusing Scandinavia with Western Europe any more than Bernie is. He likes to point out, for example, that every other wealthy nation besides the US has universal healthcare. That's great. Every wealthy nation other than the US also has much tighter gun laws. And as a result, they have much lower rates of gun violence.

But for some reason he doesn't want to bring up that self evident reality.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:15 PM

30. All of which is true.

So over the years when I have seen the amazed reaction to American violence, outside of the US, it's because of the injuries caused by guns? That makes sense. We really are talking about two things here: guns, and economic inequality.

The US is actually not that violent per capita.

Before I even go on, I am totally in favor of fewer guns. I'm not going to go through contortions to try and figure out whether the world would be better if armed or not. I just feel that in this time in history, we should not be needing guns for protection from other humans.

My bottom line is that if we go in a direction which includes giving everyone a living wage, guaranteed, we would be improving the lives of people. That alone is all I'm talking about. They'll be less likely to be degenerate, as a rule. There will always be pricks.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #30)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:24 PM

34. I agree, we are talking about two things: guns and economic inequality.

Both are important topics, both are very problematic in the US, and both deserve our attention. The point of my OP is that Bernie doesn't address the gun problem in his stump speech, but I think he should, because it is another glaring example of where the US falls short of the rest of the developed world.

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 03:55 PM

47. K & R

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 04:42 PM

55. We can't threaten the interests of the Oligarchs. Because gun violence?

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Response to DanTex (Original post)

Fri Nov 20, 2015, 06:39 PM

63. Name one position in which Hillary disagrees with Sanders on gun control

 

Today.

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