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seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
Wed May 2, 2012, 08:16 AM May 2012

A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not “Crazy”

When someone says these things to you, it’s not an example of inconsiderate behavior. When your spouse shows up half an hour late to dinner without calling—that’s inconsiderate behavior. A remark intended to shut you down like, “Calm down, you’re overreacting,” after you just addressed someone else’s bad behavior, is emotional manipulation—pure and simple. And this is the sort of emotional manipulation that feeds an epidemic in our country, an epidemic that defines women as crazy, irrational, overly sensitive, unhinged. This epidemic helps fuel the idea that women need only the slightest provocation to unleash their (crazy) emotions. It’s patently false and unfair.

I think it’s time to separate inconsiderate behavior from emotional manipulation and we need to use a word not found in our normal vocabulary. I want to introduce a helpful term to identify these reactions: gaslighting. Gaslighting is a term, often used by mental health professionals (I am not one), to describe manipulative behavior used to confuse people into thinking their reactions are so far off base that they’re crazy. The term comes from the 1944 MGM film, Gaslight, starring Ingrid Bergman. Bergman’s husband in the film, played by Charles Boyer, wants to get his hands on her jewelry. He realizes he can accomplish this by having her certified as insane and hauled off to a mental institution. To pull of this task, he intentionally sets the gaslights in their home to flicker off and on, and every time Bergman’s character reacts to it, he tells her she’s just seeing things. In this setting, a gaslighter is someone who presents false information to alter the victim’s perception of him or herself.

*

Because women bare the brunt of our neurosis. It is much easier for us to place our emotional burdens on the shoulders of our wives, our female friends, our girlfriends, our female employees, our female colleagues, than for us to impose them on the shoulders of men. It’s a whole lot easier to emotionally manipulate someone who has been conditioned by our society to accept it. We continue to burden women because they don’t refuse our burdens as easily. It’s the ultimate cowardice. Whether gaslighting is conscious or not, it produces the same result: it renders some women emotionally mute. These women aren’t able to clearly express to their spouses that what is said or done to them is hurtful. They can’t tell their boss that his behavior is disrespectful and prevents them from doing their best work. They can’t tell their parents that, when they are being critical, they are doing more harm than good. When these women receive any sort of push back to their reactions, they often brush it off by saying, “Forget it, it’s okay.” That “forget it” isn’t just about dismissing a thought, it is about self-dismissal. It’s heartbreaking.

*

Since I have embarked on this feminist self-exploration in my life and in the lives of the women I know, this concept of women as “crazy” has really emerged as a major issue in society at large and an equally major frustration for the women in my life, in general. From the way women are portrayed on reality shows, to how we condition boys and girls to see women, we have come to accept the idea that women are unbalanced, irrational individuals, especially in times of anger and frustration. Just the other day, on a flight from San Francisco to Los Angeles, a flight attendant who had come to recognize me from my many trips asked me what I did for a living. When I told her that I write mainly about women, she immediately laughed and asked, “Oh, about how crazy we are?” Her gut reaction to my work made me really depressed. While she made her response in jest, her question nonetheless makes visible a pattern of sexist commentary that travels through all facets of society on how men view women, which also greatly impacts how women may view themselves.

*

I recognize that I’ve been guilty of gaslighting my women friends in the past (but never my male friends—surprise, surprise). It’s shameful, but I’m glad I realized that I did it on occasion and put a stop to it. While I take total responsibility for my actions, I do believe that I, along with many men, am a byproduct of our conditioning. It’s about the general insight our conditioning gives us into admitting fault and exposing any emotion. When we are discouraged in our youth and early adulthood from expressing emotion, it causes many of us to remain steadfast in our refusal to express regret when we see someone in pain from our actions. When I was writing this piece, I was reminded of one of my favorite Gloria Steinem quotes, “The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn.”

http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/

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A Message To Women From A Man: You Are Not “Crazy” (Original Post) seabeyond May 2012 OP
Personally I think a hell of a lot more women are crazy than we realize Schema Thing May 2012 #1
Women are crazy and men are stupid. RevStPatrick May 2012 #2
"it was probably stupid of me to say this" especially since it is obvious you did not read the seabeyond May 2012 #3
You left out the coda: PassingFair May 2012 #6
Yep, that sounds about right. RevStPatrick May 2012 #8
A thousand recs for this, seabeyond. Control-Z May 2012 #4
wow. just wow. seabeyond May 2012 #5
"expectations. keep them high." redqueen May 2012 #7
and me on a much smaller scale iverglas May 2012 #9
a very very good post. thanks iverglas. nt seabeyond May 2012 #10
been there, done some of that. Scout May 2012 #11
saw the movie iverglas May 2012 #12
"selected precisely because of their vulnerability to it" Control-Z May 2012 #13
of course I remember you! iverglas May 2012 #14
and young women need to hear. seabeyond May 2012 #15
but there's the difference iverglas May 2012 #16
good post. i have said for years, one of the best things i did was take all of my 20's seabeyond May 2012 #17
Parents Should 'Punch' Gay-Acting Children, Says Pastor seabeyond May 2012 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author auspicious May 2012 #19
i have alcoholism in one of out of the four lines. i have loved ones seabeyond May 2012 #20

Schema Thing

(10,283 posts)
1. Personally I think a hell of a lot more women are crazy than we realize
Wed May 2, 2012, 08:53 AM
May 2012


.... and an equal proportion of males as well.



What I don't believe is that women are more "emotional thinkers" (ie. less logical) than males. Especially not so where politics are concerned.
 

RevStPatrick

(2,208 posts)
2. Women are crazy and men are stupid.
Wed May 2, 2012, 09:04 AM
May 2012

It's really that simple, and it's universal. Once you understand this to be the case, it makes it much simpler to deal with humans, of either gender. And it makes it easier to love everybody. Even the most well-adjusted members of our species has a little of one or the other (depending upon gender) under the surface, and it's easily detectable if you know how to look for it. And of course, there are crazy men and stupid women as well.

I've probably read hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of words, and have had hundreds, and more likely thousands of hours of conversation with people trying to sort out the human condition, and the struggles between the genders. Now that I'm solidly in middle age, it has become that simple:

"Women are crazy and men are stupid."

It's nothing to be ashamed of or defensive about, and it doesn't need to be over-analyzed. Of course I'm a man, and it was probably stupid of me to say this. Due to the nature of the OP, I'm expecting to get a little craziness thrown my way, but that's OK, it's all good...

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
3. "it was probably stupid of me to say this" especially since it is obvious you did not read the
Wed May 2, 2012, 09:21 AM
May 2012

article yet felt the need to give your opinion.

i know, crazy on my part, but i am throwing it out there anyway

PassingFair

(22,434 posts)
6. You left out the coda:
Wed May 2, 2012, 10:06 AM
May 2012

The women are crazy BECAUSE the men are stupid.

“Here's all you have to know about men and women: women are crazy, men are stupid. And the main reason women are crazy is that men are stupid.”
― George Carlin, When Will Jesus Bring The Pork Chops?

Control-Z

(15,681 posts)
4. A thousand recs for this, seabeyond.
Wed May 2, 2012, 09:35 AM
May 2012

Nothing seems to hurt me more or make me more angry than being called crazy. Every time my (barely) adult son does something truly unacceptable, whatever my reaction, he calls me crazy. His father, a Narcissist, began training him about 12 years ago when he (husband) actually did gaslight me to such extremes that I lost it for a while.

I haven't lived a day without depression, self doubt, fear... since. The things he did - hard to even talk about - included rats in our house, all in my mind, of course, even the one he planted in the pantry for me to find when I woke up one morning. He did so many cruel and horrible things and then called me crazy. So it has become my son's get out of trouble card. Even my girls will stoop to that low on occasion.

Thank you for the post.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
5. wow. just wow.
Wed May 2, 2012, 09:39 AM
May 2012

i have heard it on a much much lesser scale. i had a situation with 17 yr old son last night where it bottomlined to this, but not nearly at your level. had thought about it thru the night and had a conversation with both sons today. kicked their ass in argument. i am not going to allow it even a little bit.

just a wow to your story.

in all my confidence and self esteem, cause i have tons....

i would be throwing back at the BOY.... stop or disconnect. until ANY of them can address you respectfully, they are adult adn you are done. you have your line and will not allow. (totally unsolicited advice and means nothing, i know and none of my business.) i do not allow the littlest of disrespect or dismissive manner, even with teenagers. but then i give them respect so i expect no less from them.

expectations. keep them high.

 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
9. and me on a much smaller scale
Wed May 2, 2012, 12:20 PM
May 2012

Living with an alcoholic/addict usually provides a great education in gaslighting.

Even long after I had got him physically out of my life (and on the other side of a border), he would still try to manipulate to get something from me.

Was it true? Was he really clean and sober and just in need of a little cash to pay the rent and get the bus pass so he could get that job? Or was this another of the incredibly plausible lies that I would find out six months later, after believing him and doing the compassionate thing, was a lie and I had been suckered again?

It's a strong urge, maybe especially in women, that is exploited by those gaslighters: the desire not to be hard-hearted. We aren't hard-hearted, and it hurts to turn our back on someone in need whom we are capable of helping. And they know that.

And the self-flagellation and eventually self-doubt that comes from being manipulated that way is indeed real and can be devastating. I stopped trusting my own judgment.

I finally developed a solution that worked for me. Did I believe him? Neither yes nor no. The mere fact that he said something to me didn't mean that I had to either believe or disbelieve it. I would not risk having his words control my perceptions by even thinking about them. If I decided to let him talk to me, he could say what he wanted, and it had nothing to do with me. I might even decide to give him some money, for his dental work or whatever he said he needed money for. Just because I would rather be safe than sorry for my own reasons: rather be compassionate than not. But I could do that without having to believe his story. If it turned out to be a lie, it didn't matter. I'd made my own decision for my own reasons, not because I was duped by him.

People who do bad things lie all the time. Cheaters in relationships are another example; they lie and manipulate. The partner wants to believe, in order to save the relationship. And if they don't believe, they will face having the tables turned and being told they are the one at fault for being suspicious and untrusting. Mine lied about the drug and alcohol use. You can't imagine the sincerity with which he lied, and the guilt heaped on me (and felt by me) for being suspicious, and the self-doubt that came with the process. Well, I'm sure some can.

It's a somewhat different approach from the one where a person does things and denies them in order to make the other feel or appear crazy. Lying about reality is a more direct approach to getting their own way, but it too always involves undermining the other person's own sense of self -- whether by persuading them in the moment that the reality they perceive is not reality, or by leaving them to find out at some later date that the reality they perceived as a result of the lies wasn't reality after all. And so, one way or another, their own judgment is not to be trusted.

Once you have done that to someone, made them lose faith in their own judgment, the door is open to doing whatever you want.

Your words reminded me of the story of Joanne Thatcher, the wife of a prominent Canadian politician, whose 1983 murder he was convicted of (and denies to this day, having been released on parole in 2006). The TV movie about them, Love and Hate, details how he manipulated their sons into joining him in his emotional abuse of her after their divorce and her remarriage, and how she simply had to give up on them and surrender custody. He is described as a narcissist. As my psychologist once said: the only way to deal with a narcissist is to refuse to play their game; they make the rules, and you can't win.

Unfortunately, women who are subjected to the kind of emotional abuse that gaslighting represents are often selected precisely because of their vulnerability to it. A woman who is starting without confidence in herself and her judgment will find it that much harder to believe her own senses and follow her own instincts, and can be trapped. And of course often in more danger if and when she does try to leave.


Scout

(8,624 posts)
11. been there, done some of that.
Wed May 2, 2012, 01:07 PM
May 2012

i liked your solution, i'm glad it worked.

I finally developed a solution that worked for me. Did I believe him? Neither yes nor no. The mere fact that he said something to me didn't mean that I had to either believe or disbelieve it. I would not risk having his words control my perceptions by even thinking about them. If I decided to let him talk to me, he could say what he wanted, and it had nothing to do with me. I might even decide to give him some money, for his dental work or whatever he said he needed money for. Just because I would rather be safe than sorry for my own reasons: rather be compassionate than not. But I could do that without having to believe his story. If it turned out to be a lie, it didn't matter. I'd made my own decision for my own reasons, not because I was duped by him.


did you see that movie, Riding in Cars with Boys? there's a great scene where the sperm donor tells the young adult boy about how to manipulate his mother and make her feel sorry for him ... how to be a lying scum and play for her sympathy. very good scene in a very good movie, i thought.
 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
12. saw the movie
Wed May 2, 2012, 01:14 PM
May 2012

but don't remember the scene! What a fine example of father-son bonding and knowledge transfer though, eh? Some fathers teach their sons how to whittle; some teach them how to exploit and manipulate and abuse women ...

Control-Z

(15,681 posts)
13. "selected precisely because of their vulnerability to it"
Fri May 4, 2012, 04:30 AM
May 2012

You probably don't remember me. I changed my username a few years ago, but your words hit home like you might. I'm Gerri Santoro's daughter, and my childhood wasn't pretty; motherless, abused by my father, foster homes, orphaned when father died, ward of the court...honestly a mess of a person, though I was not aware of just how much of a mess. A perfectionist, people pleaser, doormat... It took me years to understand that I was selected exactly because of that, because of who I was.

This man (who was 6 years clean and sober) came on like a knight in shining armor. Tall and beautiful, a successful musician with magic fingers and a voice like an angel. When he picked up his guitar and began to sing women swooned. Some cried. Even men seemed to fall under his spell.

But he sang to me. And it was like a fairy tale come true - after everything... I never thought I'd find happiness. We bought our own little home and had the beautiful babies he wanted. I was deliriously happy for the first time in my life. I would tell my friends that my life was just about perfect.

And then one day he was done with me. He was cheating, and drinking and drugging again, and telling lies. And telling some truths. Like all I ever was to him was "good breeding material".

I realize now I never really stood a chance. I wish someone had been there to warn me, side with me, protect me. But he knew there was no one. No father or uncle living down the road. No mother to help out or drop by. He had no one to answer to and as long as I was the "crazy" woman he could get away with anything he wanted.

(When I first found out about the cheating he had been screwing my kid's 18 year old babysitter. I was so devastated I really lost it, and in front of the kids. So about two weeks later he put me in his van and drove out to a construction site after dark. I was sure he was going to murder me there. And I was sure he would get away with it. It turned out he didn't want the kids to witness him ripping out another piece of my heart when he told me about the twin baby girls he'd recently had with a drug dealer. He needed to be able to manipulate the kids and couldn't let them know what he was doing to mommy.)

Yes. Some of us are chosen precisely because of our vulnerabilities.

 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
14. of course I remember you!
Fri May 4, 2012, 10:14 AM
May 2012

Your reply to my reply back then meant as much to me as mine did to you, if you see what I mean. And I had meant to close my post by saying hello, hope you're doing well these days! We know me, just a little bit the objective rational at times.

"Never stood a chance", you betcha. Me too, for different reasons. I had family and friends all over, I was successful in the world in my own right, I had no real self-worth issues beyond the little insecurities we all have. I just didn't know there were such people in the world! Mine actually wasn't evil; it was the good in him that I was attracted to. Addiction just turns people into sociopaths, and I had never had any experience with alcoholism or addiction in my own life, so I was a babe in the woods. It was my own goodness that was my "weakness" -- empathy, desire not to be suspicious or unkind -- and was what worked for him.

And of course that was true of you too and part of why women in particular are vulnerable to this kind of victimization. We are socialized to be empathetic and kind and trusting. And that makes us easier to victimize (in many other ways too).

A narcissist>psychopath can do it to anybody and that's the big lesson.

I don't know how much anybody can learn from somebody else's experience in this regard, but it's something we do need to talk about a whole lot more and young women need to hear. At least those lists of warning signs of abusers always include things like "controlling behaviour" now, but they should probably emphasize more simple stuff like just plain "lies". And that if you think he's lying, he is.

These are damned hard lessons to have to learn for yourself. I guess it's good that the ideas are being popularized, but it isn't yet quite in the way they maybe should be. Getting people to take narcissism tests ... um, that kinda plays into their narcissism. Teaching people strategies to recognize and deal with narcissists (the big one being: leave now), and especially young women in relation to intimate relationships, would be a big help.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
15. and young women need to hear.
Fri May 4, 2012, 10:29 AM
May 2012

"Teaching people strategies to recognize and deal with narcissists (the big one being: leave now)"

but, i also have to add, that i think it is important to acknowledge this is not necessarily a gender specific issue. because if true, and regardless if it is not true, the escalation in young women adopting or exhibiting this behavior, show that both genders have to be aware of this, note the signs, and leave now.

i have a brother that is the height of the alcoholic. all the trappings. having talked about him a handful of times on du, i had one woman tell me he sounded sociopathic. i labeled him as narcissist. (i try to understand him, to help my father, who is still his enabler and continually wonders why???) i read sociopath and it fit well. from a totally disconnected place, it is interesting behavior. i had to disconnect, yet still love, years ago.

 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
16. but there's the difference
Fri May 4, 2012, 11:56 AM
May 2012

Narcissism vs. personality disorders -- and I'm talking about the actual personality disorders.

Narcissism and narcissistic behaviour are just what we might call a character flaw. The victimization and abuse, because of the lack of empathy on top of the sense of entitlement, are the trademark of the personality disorder.

I scored 17 on Dr. Drew's test, only slightly above the population average -- and he scored 16, also very slightly above. But I scored 0 on the "vanity" element of it, and I actually am a natural born leader, for instance, as I'm sure he said he was, and it would be foolish to say otherwise. (No catcalls now! We all know we don't appear or act the same in real life as on the net, largely because real life doesn't consist of a bunch of people arguing about something.)

Someone who scored through the ceiling on vanity and liking to be the centre of attention and such, the hallmark of our youthful Facebook denizens, is certainly narcissistic, but isn't necessarily also a manipulator and exploiter and victimizer. Just a poor choice for best friend or intimate partner, maybe. They will take without giving, but there's a good chance they're capable of maturing with some guidance or experience. And developing a sense of self-worth that isn't dependent on conforming to a stereotype and succeeding on the terms pre-set for you, rather than your own terms or as measured by a more worthwhile outside standard, can certainly be helped along by getting some validation of that worth socially. And these kids don't get that, from the media in particular, which is where so much of their understanding of the world comes from.

Narcissist is a label increasingly being applied to women -- the whole narcissistic mother thing that is so big these days. In those cases, I'd be looking first to the mother's life history, and whether maybe if she'd been able to pursue her own dreams instead of finding herself playing the stereotyped role of wife/mother and nothing else, she might have been less focused on herself and her own needs, which have never been met. This labelling strikes me as possibly another instance of victim-blaming.

And in the case of adolescent girls and young women, I still think the need to conform to a stereotype that focuses heavily on appearance and the old fuckability thing is a lot of what we're seeing in these narcissistic behaviours. They're in a competition in which the rules are pre-determined and those are the ones they have to play by if they don't want to be failures. Posting their grade point average on Facebook, or expressing an interest in classical music, or eschewing fashion, isn't going to help them succeed on those terms. Yes, there are the exceptional young people for whom those things are their tickets to success, but for your average kid, conformity, and conforming better than the rest of the crowd, is what does it.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
17. good post. i have said for years, one of the best things i did was take all of my 20's
Fri May 4, 2012, 12:02 PM
May 2012

into my 30's focusing on me me me.... so when i did decide to become a parent, it was very easy to put me aside. i did it willingly with no resentment and cool with it.

and i agree with you on our young girls. did you see the video of the preacher says hit the gay out of your boy? no one talked much about how he thinks a girl should preceive herself. i will get it for you. talked about "smell" but not the rest of the crap he gave the "butch" girl.

Response to seabeyond (Original post)

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
20. i have alcoholism in one of out of the four lines. i have loved ones
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:32 AM
May 2012

raised with alcoholic parents. my mom. my niece. and my mother in law. i see a certain behavior from each of these women that is so similar. a need for a tight control in their environment, yet it all differs in its manifestation. alcoholic fathers has its own effect on daughters, from what i see. that is not the same toward sons. though, seeing the boys, it is not pretty for them either. i just seems they trend in a different direction.

i never own the behavior of another. if he gives me a reason he cheated, meh? go away. whatevah.

i hope you are taking care of you, now.

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