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guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:38 PM May 2019

To Make Sure 'No President Is Above the Law,' Warren Calls for New Measure Enabling DOJ to Indict

To Make Sure 'No President Is Above the Law,' Warren Calls for New Measure Enabling DOJ to Indict a President

From the article:

Sen. Elizabeth Warren on Friday set out to change a decades-old rule which allows a U.S. president to abuse power in any number of ways without being held accountable.
In a Medium post titled "No President Is Above the Law," the Massachusetts Democrat called on lawmakers to pass legislation that would allow for the indictment of a sitting president—a measure that would have allowed Special Counsel Robert Mueller to act on his decision not to exonerate President Donald Trump.
"Donald Trump believes that he can violate the law, and he believes that the role of the Department of Justice is to help him get away with it," Warren wrote. "That's not how our country is supposed to work."


To read more:

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/05/31/make-sure-no-president-above-law-warren-calls-new-measure-enabling-doj-indict?cd-
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
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To Make Sure 'No President Is Above the Law,' Warren Calls for New Measure Enabling DOJ to Indict (Original Post) guillaumeb May 2019 OP
And then what? The Velveteen Ocelot May 2019 #1
It is a political gesture. guillaumeb May 2019 #3
Bluster FBaggins May 2019 #2
True, it is a political statement. eom guillaumeb May 2019 #4
And more power to her FBaggins May 2019 #6
Does the Constitution say that a President is above the law? eom guillaumeb May 2019 #8
Actually... it does in some ways FBaggins May 2019 #10
In my opinion, the fact that impeachment exists as an option argues that the President is NOT above guillaumeb May 2019 #11
I agree FBaggins May 2019 #12
Courts don't answer academic questions jberryhill May 2019 #14
Of course... but I didn't say "send them an instant message asking what they think" FBaggins May 2019 #16
The DOJ rule isn't even a law C_U_L8R May 2019 #5
Probably not. guillaumeb May 2019 #7
Sure the states can do something FBaggins May 2019 #9
Wanting the president to be indictable by a state.. jberryhill May 2019 #13
Good point. Turin_C3PO May 2019 #15
Oh I definitely agree FBaggins May 2019 #17
here's a weird observation jberryhill May 2019 #18
Not very popular around here... but true enough FBaggins May 2019 #19
 

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,281 posts)
1. And then what?
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:45 PM
May 2019

Assuming Turtle Boy even allows the Senate to debate the bill, would the Senate pass it? And if they did, would the president sign it? And if he did, would this Supreme Court uphold its constitutionality?

I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer but although I totally agree with it in principle it won't go anywhere. If it's intended as a political gesture it's a good one (Do you Republicans think the president should be above the law? Do you? No?), but it won't become the law, at least not now.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
3. It is a political gesture.
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:48 PM
May 2019

And your reasoning is correct. But as a statement of policy, and philosophy, it makes sense to say it and allow the GOP to oppose it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
2. Bluster
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:48 PM
May 2019

The DOJ's position has (for decades) been that the constitution sets such a restriction on them.

Warren could ask for an action getting the courts to weigh in on that determination... or she could begin the process to amend the Constitution to make that clear...

... what she can't do is pass legislation to fix the problem.

Of course... she knows that AND she knows that such legislation would never pass (let alone be signed by this president)... so this is just an opportunity for her to stand up and say that no president is above the law.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
4. True, it is a political statement. eom
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:48 PM
May 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
6. And more power to her
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:49 PM
May 2019

I'd just prefer that we make political statements that are consistent with the constitution.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
8. Does the Constitution say that a President is above the law? eom
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:51 PM
May 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
10. Actually... it does in some ways
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:54 PM
May 2019

But not in the sense that you mean it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
11. In my opinion, the fact that impeachment exists as an option argues that the President is NOT above
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:56 PM
May 2019

the law.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
12. I agree
Fri May 31, 2019, 06:10 PM
May 2019

But there are plenty here who believe that if the senate won’t remove in the current scenario... then that’s now broken.

Of course - many freepers felt the same way with Clinton.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
14. Courts don't answer academic questions
Fri May 31, 2019, 06:49 PM
May 2019

One cannot simply ask a court “hey, waddya think of this?

In the hypothetical where such a law is passed (by a veto proof majority of course) however, the president could challenge an indictment brought under it, and the DOJ memo is essentially the brief for his side.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
16. Of course... but I didn't say "send them an instant message asking what they think"
Fri May 31, 2019, 10:12 PM
May 2019

By "action" I meant a lawsuit. It would have to be pretty creative. Maybe claim (As many here - I think incorrectly) that Mueller's report represents a claim that the president would have been indicted but for that opinion. The failure to indict in that scenario represents an abuse of discretion.

In the hypothetical where such a law is passed (by a veto proof majority of course) however, the president could challenge an indictment brought under it,

Not sure that can happen. The DOJ wouldn't bring an indictment if their official position is that such is unconstitutional. Congress can't pass a law saying that DOJ must indict (because prosecutorial discretion even if something is outside of the law)

And... of course... enough support to sustain a veto override would also be enough to just impeach/remove in the first place.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

C_U_L8R

(44,897 posts)
5. The DOJ rule isn't even a law
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:49 PM
May 2019

Given that there’s a republican roadblock in the senate squashing anything that looks like real justice, is there anything state legislatures can do?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
7. Probably not.
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:50 PM
May 2019

This is a Federal matter. But she is making a statement about what should be policy.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
9. Sure the states can do something
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:52 PM
May 2019

The opinion is only binding on the DOJ (who, of course, handles all federal indictments).

State prosecutors are not bound by that opinion at all.

There are of course other constraints (it would start quite the circus)... but the DOJ's opinion isn't one of them.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
13. Wanting the president to be indictable by a state..
Fri May 31, 2019, 06:46 PM
May 2019

...is something one might meditate on whether it is a good idea as a general proposition.

Can you think of other presidents, historically, whom a state may have wanted to indict?




Sheriff Joe Arpaio would have arrested him for having an allegedly false birth certificate.

Yeah, that would have been productive.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
17. Oh I definitely agree
Fri May 31, 2019, 10:45 PM
May 2019

I just can't think of a constitutional rationale for saying it isn't possible.

Arpaio is a good example... but I'm not sure that the NYAG is all that far from taking a swing at it either.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
18. here's a weird observation
Fri May 31, 2019, 10:52 PM
May 2019

Of the three branches of the federal government, two are institutions, but the full authority of the other one is vested in a person.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
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FBaggins

(26,697 posts)
19. Not very popular around here... but true enough
Fri May 31, 2019, 11:29 PM
May 2019

However - keep in mind the relevant context. King George had more than just the executive authority... and under the Articles of Confederation, there was no separation of powers (at the federal level).

If executive power hadn't grown so much (inappropriate delegations of power from Congress, etc.) - it wouldn't be such a big deal that one person held it all.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
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