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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!
 

Celerity

(42,670 posts)
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:24 PM Dec 2019

Sanders defends Trump voters: I don't think they're racists, sexists or homophobes

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/326820-sanders-defends-trump-voters-i-dont-think-theyre-racists

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders (I) on Friday defended voters of President Trump, saying that the election was Democrats' to lose and that the party needs to better represent the working-class voters who supported Trump and other GOP lawmakers

"Some people think that the people who voted for Trump are racists and sexists and homophobes and deplorable folks. I don't agree, because I've been there.

Let me tell you something else some of you might not agree with, it wasn't that Donald Trump won the election, it was that the Democratic Party lost the election," Sanders said while speaking at an Our Revolution rally in Boston with fellow Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.).

Sanders went on to say that a "fundamental restructuring of the Democratic party" was needed to win future elections and that problems with party's current setup is why many were quick to support Trump in the election, not because of some of the rhetoric on the campaign trail.

"We need a Democratic Party that is not a party of the liberal elite but of the working class of this country, we need a party that is a grassroots party, where candidates are talking to working people not spending their time raising money for the wealthy and the powerful," Sanders said. "And when we do that, when we transform the Democratic Party, we transform America."

snip

older article

BUT


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
98 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Sanders defends Trump voters: I don't think they're racists, sexists or homophobes (Original Post) Celerity Dec 2019 OP
The reality is many of them are just that. BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #1
How many? Uncle Joe Dec 2019 #2
LOL BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #4
I never said that, I asked how many, do you know? Uncle Joe Dec 2019 #5
at least a dozen BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #8
How about a percentage with no sarcasm? Uncle Joe Dec 2019 #11
In my view the majority of Trump supporters fit at least one of those bills BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #19
Do you have a link to wherein Bernie ever said it was zero? n/t Uncle Joe Dec 2019 #21
Sure BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #79
For a guy who rarely (if ever) supports his own allegations with data or evidence... LanternWaste Dec 2019 #94
Within my group of siblings and including myself, TexasTowelie Dec 2019 #78
No you are not alone. The MAIN THREAD that binds them together, rump voters Eliot Rosewater Dec 2019 #29
Thank God for sanity BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #39
Hang in there! OAITW r.2.0 Dec 2019 #54
No Cole483rn13 Dec 2019 #13
I don't need to assume, I've experienced it. BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #14
There's a difference customerserviceguy Dec 2019 #37
That ship has sailed. BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #38
Anyone who still supports Trump has no basis to object to being called racist, sexist homophobes StarfishSaver Dec 2019 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author dawg day Dec 2019 #52
Hm sheshe2 Dec 2019 #65
This. Absolutely this! BlueMTexpat Dec 2019 #98
They Are Racist..... LovingA2andMI Dec 2019 #77
But also, many are not. thesquanderer Dec 2019 #30
gee if I posted this criticism of the dems party it would get a hide nt msongs Dec 2019 #3
2nd that. Spend some time in the party Bernie. More than a few months every 4 yrs. IADEMO2004 Dec 2019 #10
He's wrong about that, tootoo mcar Dec 2019 #6
This alone should D.Q. Sanders from being in the democratic primary Botany Dec 2019 #7
+100000 Celerity Dec 2019 #12
In Oct. 2018 Donald Trump went to Lebanon, OH and praised Gen. Robert E Lee Botany Dec 2019 #16
Do you know how many people who voted for Obama moved to Trump? redqueen Dec 2019 #20
That's right, it's not as simple as some folks assert. JudyM Dec 2019 #25
Its squirecam Dec 2019 #56
Why? What part of it so offends you? (n/t) thesquanderer Dec 2019 #28
Wrong, again. Hoyt Dec 2019 #9
This makes no sense thegoose Dec 2019 #15
"It wasn't that Donald Trump won PatSeg Dec 2019 #17
Funny he says that. sheshe2 Dec 2019 #41
Yeah PatSeg Dec 2019 #58
Yes.... George II Dec 2019 #22
I'm more concerned with the fact BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #23
The fact is not all of the people who voted for Trump are racists, sexists or homophobes. Autumn Dec 2019 #24
Honestly sometimes it seems like this party WANTS to lose redqueen Dec 2019 #26
I just shake my head. Autumn Dec 2019 #27
You mean the ones that are supporting someone who is not actually a Democrat tymorial Dec 2019 #33
that is NOT what his embedded neuro-linguistic programming is Celerity Dec 2019 #40
God help me if he is the nominee. I'm going to be puking everyday for months tymorial Dec 2019 #31
That is what we did with HC RandiFan1290 Dec 2019 #85
Why did you do that? betsuni Dec 2019 #90
There is nothing for me to suck up tymorial Dec 2019 #91
I don't think they're racists, sexists or homophobes Lexee Dec 2019 #32
I know they are still_one Dec 2019 #55
Every one of them. sheshe2 Dec 2019 #68
+++ still_one Dec 2019 #69
Ya, pretty evident. Too bad denying that facts only works to enable the behavior. Lexee Dec 2019 #96
Trump's biggest vote getters were lots of good paying jobs Prosper Dec 2019 #34
Voting for someone as openly racist and sexist as Trump ismnotwasm Dec 2019 #35
++++ brer cat Dec 2019 #64
Welp. sheshe2 Dec 2019 #70
last I checked... handmade34 Dec 2019 #36
I grew up believing there is no choice for poor people Prosper Dec 2019 #81
"..it wasn't that Donald Trump won the election, it was that the Democratic Party lost the election" myohmy2 Dec 2019 #42
I don't agree with you or Bernie BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #43
agree with... myohmy2 Dec 2019 #87
No, but when he just throws out the blanket statement that they're not racist he invites criticism. BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #92
Ignoring Comey, foreign interference, and the LIEs propagated by some so called still_one Dec 2019 #57
If he truly believes that then I question his judgment. Nt helpisontheway Dec 2019 #44
Some of them are just dumb. Wolf Frankula Dec 2019 #45
Bernie is right ritapria Dec 2019 #46
What about the people who voted for him because he promised to keep the Mexicans out? BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #47
Bernie, as usual, is wrong. Jakes Progress Dec 2019 #59
of course Bernie's right... myohmy2 Dec 2019 #88
How is the Democratic Party a party of the liberal elite and not the working class? betsuni Dec 2019 #89
I hate it when people say "we lost bamagal62 Dec 2019 #48
The race should not have been close enough to steal ritapria Dec 2019 #50
Voter suppression; Russia interference; Comey memo spooky3 Dec 2019 #53
I could not disagree more with Sanders' statements in this OP. Nt spooky3 Dec 2019 #49
Poof liberal N proud Dec 2019 #51
BULLSHIT Bernie. BS! Wawannabe Dec 2019 #60
This from last year: "I think you know there are a lot of white folks out there who are not betsuni Dec 2019 #61
Yeah, Bernie BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #66
If he truly believes what he said in these quotes... I can't vote for anyone with judgment that poor RockRaven Dec 2019 #62
Hmm. LesterT Dec 2019 #63
This video explains a lot. OldRed2450 Dec 2019 #67
I think at the end of the day BannonsLiver Dec 2019 #71
It's called denial. nt TexasTowelie Dec 2019 #82
Oh, Bernie. betsuni Dec 2019 #74
once again Bernie gets it wrong.... quickesst Dec 2019 #72
Alt-left narrative which Sanders has since backed off of, but radius777 Dec 2019 #73
There are a small % who could possibly switch to the right Democrat so I really don't have a problem Quixote1818 Dec 2019 #75
I don't believe that the 1% to 2% of Trump voters that Bernie would attract TexasTowelie Dec 2019 #83
Yes, we can't ignore how high his negatives are with Democrats... comradebillyboy Dec 2019 #97
They most certainly are racists and sexists and homophobes and deplorable folks vlyons Dec 2019 #76
He doesn't get it. If you consider Trump at all, you're voting for him. Recursion Dec 2019 #80
and here's the old Bernie again. attacking the Democratic party. stopdiggin Dec 2019 #84
No, Bernie - they are. That's the reason they voted for Trump. BuffaloJackalope Dec 2019 #86
I sure as shit hope we win back some Trump supporters in Michigan. demmiblue Dec 2019 #93
Yet another reason I cannot support Sanders in the primaries. Happy Hoosier Dec 2019 #95
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
1. The reality is many of them are just that.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:25 PM
Dec 2019

Many of us know people in our personal lives who fit this bill exactly and who are enthusiastic trump supporters. Sorry Bernie, gonna have to disagree with you on this one.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
4. LOL
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:30 PM
Dec 2019

You don't believe there are Trump supporters who are racists, sexists and homophobes? It's one thing to support your candidate. It's another to believe every word that tumbles out of his mouth. You don't know any Trump supporters who are racists, good for you. Unfortunately, many of us have encountered them.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Uncle Joe

(58,112 posts)
5. I never said that, I asked how many, do you know?
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:31 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
8. at least a dozen
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:32 PM
Dec 2019

But hey, maybe I'm alone in that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Uncle Joe

(58,112 posts)
11. How about a percentage with no sarcasm?
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:33 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
19. In my view the majority of Trump supporters fit at least one of those bills
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:45 PM
Dec 2019

Still, I'm not sure it's possible to quantify exactly how many Trump voters are racist, and how many of them are worried about their "economic anxieties". But either way it's more than zero which is what Bernie thinks, apparently.
But it's really neat you're so enthusiastic about trump supporters as people, and more importantly, giving trump supporters the benefit of the doubt. You have more faith than I do in trump supporters.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Uncle Joe

(58,112 posts)
21. Do you have a link to wherein Bernie ever said it was zero? n/t
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:47 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
79. Sure
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 03:04 AM
Dec 2019

It’s right there in the OP. He doesn’t qualify it with “some aren’t” he just says they aren’t. So there’s your link. I know it’s not Common Dreams, but you should give it a read.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
94. For a guy who rarely (if ever) supports his own allegations with data or evidence...
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 04:45 PM
Dec 2019

you seem fixated on receiving it from others.

I get it... sometimes it's just easier to hold people to a higher standard than we hold ourselves to. Convenient, in fact. So I certainly understand, if not empathize with why you do it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TexasTowelie

(111,314 posts)
78. Within my group of siblings and including myself,
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 03:00 AM
Dec 2019

40%. A different 40% are Democrats. The final 20% voted for Trump, but I don't think she is a racist. So within that small group of Trump voters that means 67& are racist.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Eliot Rosewater

(31,097 posts)
29. No you are not alone. The MAIN THREAD that binds them together, rump voters
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:03 PM
Dec 2019

is racism.

I would say 90% of rump voters are racist.

That is it for me, if I have to treat comments like that on Democratic underground as if they are from a Democrat, I am done.

they win

say hello to 4 more years of putin

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
39. Thank God for sanity
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:19 PM
Dec 2019

And I agree with your assessment. But I guess for some every word that tumbles out of the candidate’s mouth is a golden nugget of truth that can never be questioned or disputed in any way. Where have I seen that before?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

OAITW r.2.0

(23,862 posts)
54. Hang in there!
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:03 PM
Dec 2019

Feels like there is going to be a major confrontation between the Trumpists and the truth. Which side are you on?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cole483rn13

(11 posts)
13. No
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:34 PM
Dec 2019

I live in Tennessee and many if not all of my friends and family voted for trump. I think it's quite tasteless assume they are racist homophobes cause I can tell you I know that isn't true. They may be misguided though lol

Sanders is correct and even though this article was dug up from years past just to continue the smear assault, it shows he has more class and common sense than other politicians who chose to attack voters instead of listen to them.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
14. I don't need to assume, I've experienced it.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:35 PM
Dec 2019

And at no point did i say they ALL were.

On edit: Has the forum gone 'round the bend to the point where we're defending Trump voters?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
37. There's a difference
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:13 PM
Dec 2019

between defending Trump voters, and recognizing that Sen. Sanders doesn't want to demonize Americans that he disagrees with.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
18. Anyone who still supports Trump has no basis to object to being called racist, sexist homophobes
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:43 PM
Dec 2019

And if they don't like it being viewed as such, they need to get over it. It is what it is.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to Cole483rn13 (Reply #13)

 

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
65. Hm
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 12:01 AM
Dec 2019
I think it's quite tasteless assume they are racist homophobes cause I can tell you I know that isn't true.


I think it is tasteless to support a pussy grabber, liar and cheat.

I think it is tasteless to support Russia over the USA.



I think it is tasteless to crudely mock a disabled reporter.



I think it is tasteless to mock a young girl, Greta on climate change. Who the hell mocks a child, perhaps because she is brighter and more articulate than he will ever be.

I think it is tasteless to support a man that denies our Constitution which is the law of the land.

Much. Much more.


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BlueMTexpat

(15,349 posts)
98. This. Absolutely this!
Fri Dec 6, 2019, 05:21 AM
Dec 2019

Anyone who STILL supports the Orange POS is indeed tasteless, a racist or homophobe or all three. That is true no matter what political affiliation those people pay lip service to.

I am not sure what planet Bernie or anyone else who can say that they aren't lives on.

But it is definitely NOT the one where I live.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LovingA2andMI

(7,006 posts)
77. They Are Racist.....
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 02:26 AM
Dec 2019

POS if they are STILL with Drump. Period. Next

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

thesquanderer

(11,955 posts)
30. But also, many are not.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:04 PM
Dec 2019

I know too many Trump voters, including ones in my family and ones in the family of my significant other. These are not all terrible people. Most dislike Trump. But they disliked Hillary more.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

msongs

(67,199 posts)
3. gee if I posted this criticism of the dems party it would get a hide nt
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:28 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

IADEMO2004

(5,538 posts)
10. 2nd that. Spend some time in the party Bernie. More than a few months every 4 yrs.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:33 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mcar

(42,210 posts)
6. He's wrong about that, tootoo
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:31 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Botany

(70,291 posts)
7. This alone should D.Q. Sanders from being in the democratic primary
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:31 PM
Dec 2019

n/t

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Botany

(70,291 posts)
16. In Oct. 2018 Donald Trump went to Lebanon, OH and praised Gen. Robert E Lee
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:38 PM
Dec 2019

That was no mistake. It was a call out to Trump's racist base because that area is the home
of the KKK in OH and some of those arrested for acts in Charlottesville, VA were from that area
and or had links to that area.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
20. Do you know how many people who voted for Obama moved to Trump?
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:45 PM
Dec 2019

Do you want them to do so again?

Not all of his voters are racist / sexist / homophobic.

It's simply a fact.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

JudyM

(29,122 posts)
25. That's right, it's not as simple as some folks assert.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:58 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

squirecam

(2,706 posts)
56. Its
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:06 PM
Dec 2019

About half of the basket of deplorables. Being gracious in that %.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

thesquanderer

(11,955 posts)
28. Why? What part of it so offends you? (n/t)
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:02 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

thegoose

(3,115 posts)
15. This makes no sense
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:38 PM
Dec 2019

He's so wrong. The evidence is so fucking clear.

There's a shitload of haters out in voting states and not us, thanks to the fucked-up Electoral College. Shut the fuck up, Bernie, You're not as smart and smug as you think you are.

DU, block me if you want, but I'm tired of this asshole.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

PatSeg

(46,804 posts)
17. "It wasn't that Donald Trump won
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:43 PM
Dec 2019

the election, it was that the Democratic Party lost the election." This bothers me more than his comments about Trump voters. Is he dissing the Democratic party?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
41. Funny he says that.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:25 PM
Dec 2019

He was in the Democratic party and running as a Democrat when we lost.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

PatSeg

(46,804 posts)
58. Yeah
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:13 PM
Dec 2019

Not likely to endear him to some Democrats I'd think.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

George II

(67,782 posts)
22. Yes....
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:49 PM
Dec 2019


And as many of his followers remind us repeatedly, he hasn't changed his positions in decades. Much of what you posted and what he said about OUR Democratic Party, is insulting (not by you).
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
23. I'm more concerned with the fact
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:53 PM
Dec 2019

Some of Bernie's more enthusiastic, committed DU supporters are trying to obfuscate around the issue that YES, many of these people are indeed racists, sexists and homophobes. Gaslighting in full effect over something that should be easy for us to all agree on.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Autumn

(44,762 posts)
24. The fact is not all of the people who voted for Trump are racists, sexists or homophobes.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:57 PM
Dec 2019

I know people who voted for him. The same Republicans who voted for Obama voted for Trump. They preferred Obama over Romney and Trump over Hillary.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

redqueen

(115,096 posts)
26. Honestly sometimes it seems like this party WANTS to lose
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 09:59 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Autumn

(44,762 posts)
27. I just shake my head.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:00 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
33. You mean the ones that are supporting someone who is not actually a Democrat
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:08 PM
Dec 2019

I'm tired of Sanders. I'm tired of his behavior. I'm looking forward to him losing the primary and then go away for good.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Celerity

(42,670 posts)
40. that is NOT what his embedded neuro-linguistic programming is
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:22 PM
Dec 2019

He (and especially his external hired guns) are all about creating a 'fog of war' confusion and demoralising (in terms of GOTV) message that will see anyone but a Sanderite type defeated. Non DU Sanders supporters out themselves every single mingle minute, they are wreckers.

It is CLASSIC non-linear warfare and reflexive control.


How Russia Wages Non-Linear Warfare and Reflexive Control
Democratic Rhetoric Toward Undemocratic Intent


It is all about creating a fog of war environment without actual kinetic weapons being used. You churn up all the inherent pre-existing divisions within a society and get them to turn on each other.


How Putin Is Reinventing Warfare

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/05/05/how-putin-is-reinventing-warfare/

The Kremlin, according to Barack Obama, is stuck in the “old ways,” trapped in Cold War or even 19th century mindsets. But look closer at the Kremlin’s actions during the crisis in Ukraine and you begin to see a very 21st century mentality, manipulating transnational financial interconnections, spinning global media, and reconfiguring geo-political alliances. Could it be that the West is the one caught up in the “old ways,” while the Kremlin is the geopolitical avant-garde, informed by a dark, subversive reading of globalization?

The Kremlin’s approach might be called “non-linear war,” a term used in a short story written by one of Putin’s closest political advisors, Vladislav Surkov, which was published under his pseudonym, Nathan Dubovitsky, just a few days before the annexation of Crimea. Surkov is credited with inventing the system of “managed democracy” that has dominated Russia in the 21st century, and his new portfolio focuses on foreign policy. This time, he sets his new story in a dystopian future, after the “fifth world war.”

Surkov writes: “It was the first non-linear war. In the primitive wars of the 19th and 20th centuries it was common for just two sides to fight. Two countries, two blocks of allies. Now four coalitions collided. Not two against two, or three against one. All against all.”

This is a world where the old geo-political paradigms no longer hold. As the Kremlin faces down the West, it is indeed gambling that old alliances like the EU and NATO mean less in the 21st century than the new commercial ties it has established with nominally “Western” companies, such as BP, Exxon, Mercedes, and BASF. Meanwhile, many Western countries welcome corrupt financial flows from the post-Soviet space; it is part of their economic models, and not one many want disturbed. So far, the Kremlin’s gamble seems to be paying off, with financial considerations helping to curb sanctions. Part of the rationale for fast-tracking Russia’s inclusion into the global economy was that interconnection would be a check on aggression. But the Kremlin has figured out that this can be flipped: Interconnection also means that Russia can get away with aggression.


snip








Non-Linear Warfare and Reflexive Control - NATO Defense College

http://www.ndc.nato.int/download/downloads.php?icode=467



Redefining Hybrid Warfare: Russia’s Nonlinear War against the West


http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1538&context=jss



What is Hybrid Warfare?

https://globalsecurityreview.com/hybrid-and-non-linear-warfare-systematically-erases-the-divide-between-war-peace/


Conventional Western concepts of war are incompatible and fundamentally misaligned with the realities of conflict in the twenty-first century. The emergence of a unipolar post-Cold War world order has resulted in a significant paradigm shift.

This change now requires the U.S. and its allies to adopt a new legal, psychological, and strategic understanding of warfare and use of force, particularly by state actors. The term “hybrid war” (military institutions use the term “hybrid threat”) connotes the use of conventional military force supported by irregular and cyber warfare tactics. In practical application, the Russian concept of “nonlinear conflict” exemplifies hybrid warfare strategy.

Linear conflicts are defined by a sequential progression of a planned strategy by opposing sides, whereas nonlinear conflict is the simultaneous deployment of multiple, complementary military and non-military warfare tactics. A nonlinear war is fought when a state employs conventional and irregular military forces in conjunction with psychological, economic, political, and cyber assaults. Confusion and disorder ensue when weaponized information exacerbates the perception of insecurity in the populace as political, social, and cultural identities are pitted against one another.

This “blurring” divides influential interest groups and powerful political organizations by exploiting identity politics and allegiances. Additionally, nonlinear warfare tactics act as a deterrent towards a more powerful ally of the besieged state.

snip

Putin’s Way of War
The ‘War’ in Russia’s ‘Hybrid Warfare’


http://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/pubs/parameters/issues/Winter_2015-16/9_Monaghan.pdf

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
31. God help me if he is the nominee. I'm going to be puking everyday for months
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:05 PM
Dec 2019

While having to support him

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

RandiFan1290

(6,206 posts)
85. That is what we did with HC
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 07:30 AM
Dec 2019

and what we will do if JB is the nominee.

Suck it up

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

betsuni

(25,138 posts)
90. Why did you do that?
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 09:22 AM
Dec 2019

What was the big problem? Give details.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
91. There is nothing for me to suck up
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 11:00 AM
Dec 2019

I'm glad that you did and others but he didn't. He also had numerous supporters who refused to support Hillary. I won't forget this

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Lexee

(377 posts)
32. I don't think they're racists, sexists or homophobes
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:06 PM
Dec 2019

I do.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
68. Every one of them.
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 12:19 AM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Lexee

(377 posts)
96. Ya, pretty evident. Too bad denying that facts only works to enable the behavior.
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 08:49 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Prosper

(761 posts)
34. Trump's biggest vote getters were lots of good paying jobs
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:08 PM
Dec 2019

and make America great again. The same people suffering then are suffering worse now. Trump is promising full health care with no exceptions and
continuing.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

ismnotwasm

(41,921 posts)
35. Voting for someone as openly racist and sexist as Trump
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:11 PM
Dec 2019

Is racist and sexist. There is no grey area that people seem to like to pretend is a thing. It doesn’t exist. This is the same “economic anxiety” theory that has shown to be crap. So that would be 100 percent of Trump voters are racist.

I come from racists. Mom Dad grandparents. I know my people very well.

I live in Seattle. I know many a Bernie supporter and consider them friends. I don’t however, give them a pass on saying” economic justice” will fix institutional racism when the very institution of the US of A is based on racism. Founded on it. We fought I don’t know how many court cases through the years over it. It still exists both in overt form and smarmy passive aggressive style and overtly.

I don’t understand what Bernie is trying to do here. Who is he trying to reach? To soothe? To woo? Farmers, who plan on voting for Trump despite the Trade Wars? Urban blue color whites who went for Trump? Who? Those people neither need or want Bernie’s compassion, if we can call it that. He’s wasting his time.



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

brer cat

(24,402 posts)
64. ++++
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 12:00 AM
Dec 2019

Nailed it, ism. I live among them and know them.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

sheshe2

(83,355 posts)
70. Welp.
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 12:24 AM
Dec 2019
Those people neither need or want Bernie’s compassion, if we can call it that. He’s wasting his time.


He has no where left to go.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

handmade34

(22,755 posts)
36. last I checked...
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:12 PM
Dec 2019

the Democratic Party is still the party for all, including the working class and the poor and the rest

Democrats believe health care is a right, diversity is a strength, the economy should work for everyone, and facts and truth matter.

Whether it's health care, the economy, education, gun reform, equal pay, voting rights, national security, or the climate crisis, the Democratic Party understands that there's no single issue that matters more than the rest. Democrats are tackling these issues and others every day.


https://democrats.org/who-we-are/


maybe Sanders doesn't understand the Democratic Party
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Prosper

(761 posts)
81. I grew up believing there is no choice for poor people
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 03:24 AM
Dec 2019

but to vote straight Democratic. But how do you explain 50 years of stagnant wages, income gap, unaffordable healthcare and unaffordable college??? Is this the result of racism:”Wealth. As well as being better educated, Episcopalians and Presbyterians tend to be considerably wealthier than most other religious groups, and they are disproportionately represented in the upper reaches of American business, law, and politics.”

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

myohmy2

(3,118 posts)
42. "..it wasn't that Donald Trump won the election, it was that the Democratic Party lost the election"
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:29 PM
Dec 2019

...if we're honest, we'll admit that...I was shocked to see trump's Union support...I still can't figure that out...

...Bernie's also right about trump voters,

...1 of my daughters and husband, 2 of my grandchildren, 2 of my wife's brothers and spouses, 1 of my wife's sisters and husband, 1 of my brothers and 2 of my neighbors voted for trump...they voted for trump for a variety of reason and only a couple I would categorize as racist, sexist or homophobic...most were just fed up with the status quo and believed trump's bullshit...

...I would say, most still support trump but don't necessarily agree with or endorse his methods...but it's gotten so bad, that when we meet, no one ever brings up politics anymore...and our relationships have gotten colder...

...and if you're honest, you'll probably agree with me because you have a similar situation...thank God most of the family are still never-trumpers...

...trump is one corrosive SOB...

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
43. I don't agree with you or Bernie
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:32 PM
Dec 2019

He’s making the case none of these people fit that bill. He didn’t qualify his statement with “not all are racist” he just said they weren’t. Charlottesville and many dozens of incidents contradict that point.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

myohmy2

(3,118 posts)
87. agree with...
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 08:39 AM
Dec 2019

...whomever you like...

...but few supporters of any candidate are going to be in 100% lock-step with their candidate, Bernie included...

...I'm a little more generous than you when it comes to Bernie...common sense would tell me Bernie was not referring to the hardcore Charlottesville neo-Nazi's but instead voters who may have otherwise considered voting Democratic but went with trump for a variety of reasons...

...of all the candidates on earth, do you honestly believe Bernie would be the one defending neo-Nazi's?

...that's something which I don't agree or believe...

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
92. No, but when he just throws out the blanket statement that they're not racist he invites criticism.
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 11:32 AM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

still_one

(91,965 posts)
57. Ignoring Comey, foreign interference, and the LIEs propagated by some so called
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:10 PM
Dec 2019

progressives spewing the LIEs that there was no difference between republicans and Democrats is seems conveniently forgotten by some

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

helpisontheway

(5,004 posts)
44. If he truly believes that then I question his judgment. Nt
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:33 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Wolf Frankula

(3,595 posts)
45. Some of them are just dumb.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:34 PM
Dec 2019

Others are ignorant. I have met both types.

Wolf

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ritapria

(1,812 posts)
46. Bernie is right
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:39 PM
Dec 2019

Stagnant Wages over the last 45 years has lead to over half of the American people living paycheck to paycheck ……..A lot of those people voted for a faux - populist named Donald Trump ...They weren't all racists- by a longhshot ... ...He promised a big Infrastructure Program , he opposed NAFTA , no cuts in Social Security and Medicare , Universal Healthcare , No more interventionist wars ….They were all brazen lies but this platform helped him to tear down the Blue Wall …….We need to run a real populist named Bernie Sanders who has established his progressive bona fides for the last 45 years . ……… A promise to return normalcy won't cut it ... . It won't cut it with the young people , people of color , or with working class voters ...They will simply stay at home - as they did in 2016 ... As for the swing voters , many will simply shrug their shoulders and say to themselves : " The stock market is going up, things are going pretty good , .. Trump is an asshole but the other side isn't going to change anything ..We might as well stick with the asshole we've got " ……

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
47. What about the people who voted for him because he promised to keep the Mexicans out?
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:40 PM
Dec 2019

And the Muslims? Do you think it was all economic anxiety?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Jakes Progress

(11,121 posts)
59. Bernie, as usual, is wrong.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:13 PM
Dec 2019

Oh, I know that his main desire is to prove that Hillary was a terrible candidate. I know that posters have said that they know their family members who voted for trump and that they are really wonderful people. You can't be counted in with "wonderful people" if you choose the candidate who started his candidacy by calling Mexicans rapists. Or if you choose the candidate who grabs women's genitals. Or if you choose the candidate who locks children in cages. Or the candidate who mimics handicapped people.

If you choose that candidate over the most decent and most qualified candidate who ever ran for the office, you have to have a reason. If you are racist, or homophobic, or sexist, then those would be your reasons. The only other reason would be that you are pitifully, pathologically stupid. No, not confused or misled. Stupid.

I too have relatives that voted for trump. They pretend they are not racists. But it always comes out eventually. The pretend they aren't sexist, but just ask their wives.

Sorry. Bernie is pandering to the same people that the republicans welcomed into their party because it might help them win.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

myohmy2

(3,118 posts)
88. of course Bernie's right...
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 08:55 AM
Dec 2019

...face it, people are going to try to hang Bernie no matter what...why?

...because Bernie represents needed change and some people are comfortable with the status quo even when it's failed them...

" We need a Democratic Party that is not a party of the liberal elite but of the working class..."

...who could disagree with that?

...if the Democratic Party was doing such a great job solving the problems and representing the aspirations and wishes of the working class why did so many of them vote for trump?...that's the point...

...when comes to representing the working class, there should be no contest between Democrats and republicans...

...Bernie will see to that...

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

betsuni

(25,138 posts)
89. How is the Democratic Party a party of the liberal elite and not the working class?
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 09:20 AM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

bamagal62

(3,218 posts)
48. I hate it when people say "we lost
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:44 PM
Dec 2019

the election” or “they won the election”...the election was STOLEN. Full stop. No other reasons.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ritapria

(1,812 posts)
50. The race should not have been close enough to steal
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:53 PM
Dec 2019

Our base did not show up ...Their base did …. Result : An Orange Clown is Occupying the WH …….Blame the Electoral College ………..

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

spooky3

(34,303 posts)
53. Voter suppression; Russia interference; Comey memo
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:03 PM
Dec 2019

were important factors.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

spooky3

(34,303 posts)
49. I could not disagree more with Sanders' statements in this OP. Nt
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:50 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

liberal N proud

(60,302 posts)
51. Poof
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 10:56 PM
Dec 2019

My head exploding, Democratic candidates criticizing the Democratic party and forgiving the republicans.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Wawannabe

(5,580 posts)
60. BULLSHIT Bernie. BS!
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:21 PM
Dec 2019

The election was stolen. Hillary got the popular vote. You would not have received as many votes as Hillary. Dems didn’t lose the election.

You are not a Democrat so go home! I don’t see why you get to run as one and be Independent as Senator. You are two faced as they come and you are a hypocrite!

If you can rant so can I!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

betsuni

(25,138 posts)
61. This from last year: "I think you know there are a lot of white folks out there who are not
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:26 PM
Dec 2019

necessarily racist who felt uncomfortable for the first time in their lives about whether or not they wanted to vote for an African-American. I think the next time around, by the way, it will be a lot easier for them to do that."

No, the U.S. is becoming more polarized and white identity stronger. When Obama was first elected whites were pretty evenly divided between Democrats and Republicans. Now more of them are Republican.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
66. Yeah, Bernie
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 12:14 AM
Dec 2019

Charlottesville was about economic anxiety. El Paso was about economic anxiety. The dozens of viral videos of Trump supporters berating immigrants at restaurants and grocery stores is just economic anxiety.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

RockRaven

(14,784 posts)
62. If he truly believes what he said in these quotes... I can't vote for anyone with judgment that poor
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:36 PM
Dec 2019

There has been plenty of time to analyze the available data... and Bernie's summary of what happens ignores it.

Trump didn't win by winning "working people" votes. He won by winning white votes. There's a fuck-ton of non-white people in the working class. Who Bernie is dismissing...

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

LesterT

(41 posts)
63. Hmm.
Wed Dec 4, 2019, 11:41 PM
Dec 2019

Some truth there but Bernie is a little off on what Trump's base actually is. So are many people off on that. The majority of Trump's actual base is not struggling working class and poor people. His base is middle class and above and many are damn well racist and sexist and homophobic as all hell. I don't think a lot of people realize the extent of Trump's support in white suburbia. The rural narrative is overplayed. Beyond that, Bernie makes some strong points there. Not sure why it would bring such consternation.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

BannonsLiver

(16,162 posts)
71. I think at the end of the day
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 12:26 AM
Dec 2019

There are people who understand the level of true evil we are dealing with and then there are others who can’t or won’t see it, either because they are naive or willfully ignorant.

I’m pretty clear eyed about the fascists in our midst. It’s jarring that others don’t seem to get it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

TexasTowelie

(111,314 posts)
82. It's called denial. nt
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 04:21 AM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

betsuni

(25,138 posts)
74. Oh, Bernie.
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 01:33 AM
Dec 2019

"Consistent with a long line of research showing that group interests are more potent politically than self-interest, economic anxiety was channeled more through white identity politics than it was through Trump supporters' concern for their own personal well-being."

Republican voters do not vote because of policy. "Trump's campaign surprised and dismayed many Republicans for another reason: it revealed that many rank-and-file Republicans were not movement conservatives. One conservative analyst ... described how Republican leaders had often thought abut their voters: 'These are conservative voters, anti-Obama voters. We'll give them the same polices we've always given them.' What Republican leaders discovered, however, was that those polices were not what all Republican voters wanted. Most voters, even primary voters, are not ideologues. In 2016, those voters finally had someone to vote for." (From "Identity Crisis" )

Bernie thinks if he just has a chance to explain his policies to people, they will stop being Republicans. That it's about policy, not identity, that Democrats don't have any policies helping the working/middle classes and that's why white people do not vote for them.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

quickesst

(6,280 posts)
72. once again Bernie gets it wrong....
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 12:50 AM
Dec 2019

For most of them it was exactly those reasons they voted for Trump.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

radius777

(3,624 posts)
73. Alt-left narrative which Sanders has since backed off of, but
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 12:59 AM
Dec 2019

that narrative that the Dems 'sold out the (white) working class' is alive and well amongst both the alt-right/Trumpers and alt-left/DSA/Greens whose ideology is not at all liberal or Democratic, but a fusion of extremist populist ideologies, which they pound 24/7 on social media to slime Democrats.

Basically the alt-left are hard left on economics and foreign policy, libertarian or conservative on social values (and hostile towards social liberalism and civil rights which they see as 'dividing' the working class ie offending whites), and hold a conspiratorial worldview that is hostile towards the Dem party and its modern day icons such as the Clintons and Obama.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Quixote1818

(28,904 posts)
75. There are a small % who could possibly switch to the right Democrat so I really don't have a problem
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 01:41 AM
Dec 2019

with this. If Sanders were to get the nomination and he could pull 1 or 2% of Trump voters to our side this is just common sense politics. That 1 or 2% is often precisely what is needed to win and if you insult them (even if most should be insulted) that small % vanishes completely.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

TexasTowelie

(111,314 posts)
83. I don't believe that the 1% to 2% of Trump voters that Bernie would attract
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 04:58 AM
Dec 2019

would offset the 10% or 20% of Democrats that will refuse to vote for Bernie whatever their reason(s) may be.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

comradebillyboy

(10,119 posts)
97. Yes, we can't ignore how high his negatives are with Democrats...
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 09:06 PM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
76. They most certainly are racists and sexists and homophobes and deplorable folks
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 02:23 AM
Dec 2019

and ignorant and not well-traveled. Recently, I used to live in rural east Texas, the bible belt and home to KKK clubs. They vote Republican because their Baptist preacher tells them to do so. They have no shame using the N-word and do so frequently. High school drop out rates are high 25% to 30% in the rural counties. Jobs, other than MacJobs are few and far between.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
80. He doesn't get it. If you consider Trump at all, you're voting for him.
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 03:24 AM
Dec 2019

As a party we absolutely need to keep this in mind. This is a cycle with zero undecideds, whatever they say: if a person is even considering voting for Trump, and that person votes, he is voting for Trump. It doesn't matter whether or not they are racist or sexist, because they still aren't voting for someone else.

You're not going to win a shouting match with Trump. You're not going to out-demagogue Trump. You're not going to beat him on policy (remember a depressingly large number of Trump voters still think he's going to give them health care). He's crossed so many lines, and then taken the line and thrown it out the window and into the alligator-infested bayou, and then ridden an alligator across that line, that you are not tempting them back.

Now, the really odd thing is that this process hasn't made them Republicans. But someone who will vote for Beshear over Bevin will still vote for Trump over Sanders. This isn't about ideas or policies or anything like that; this is about whether people think things become true by saying them. And people who think things become true by saying them will always vote for Trump.

We aren't winning over Trump voters. Stop trying. Mobilize everybody else.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

stopdiggin

(11,095 posts)
84. and here's the old Bernie again. attacking the Democratic party.
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 04:59 AM
Dec 2019

this time in defense of all the "misunderstood" Trump voters.
Any wonder why a lot of people just don't want ANY part of this?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

BuffaloJackalope

(818 posts)
86. No, Bernie - they are. That's the reason they voted for Trump.
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 08:33 AM
Dec 2019
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

demmiblue

(36,751 posts)
93. I sure as shit hope we win back some Trump supporters in Michigan.
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 11:36 AM
Dec 2019

A state that Obama won in a landslide in 2008.

Calling them names (even if true) only mobilizes them... just like the "basket of deplorables" comment did.

And a 2017 article. Really?! Gawd, there is so much unnecessary drama in this forum.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Happy Hoosier

(7,081 posts)
95. Yet another reason I cannot support Sanders in the primaries.
Thu Dec 5, 2019, 04:55 PM
Dec 2019

And just a point Bernie..... you aren't working class, either.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
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