Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!
 

highplainsdem

(48,730 posts)
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:05 PM Feb 2020

Can DUers at least agree that any Dems who don't vote or vote 3rd party are fools?

Even if they say they oppose Trump. Even if they say they'd have voted for the Democratic nominee IF ONLY the primaries had given them the nominee they wanted.

Can we at least agree that you'd have to be an idiot, if you're a Democrat and oppose Trump, NOT to vote for the nominee?

I'm so tired of being told that "progressives won't vote" or "young people won't vote" unless they get exactly the candidate they want, and to hell with other Democrats' choice if it doesn't agree with theirs.

To be blunt, anyone stupid enough to not vote at all in a crucial election, or to vote third party as some kind of sanctimonious protest, probably doesn't have good enough judgment to pick the best candidate anyway.

We ALL have to vote blue, no matter who.

We have to defeat Trump, keep the House and take back the Senate.

We can squabble over the policy differences later.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
194 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Can DUers at least agree that any Dems who don't vote or vote 3rd party are fools? (Original Post) highplainsdem Feb 2020 OP
I agree with that. wyldwolf Feb 2020 #1
... and 2016. EOM nolawarlock Feb 2020 #165
I agree with that, no problem. mountain grammy Feb 2020 #2
Thanks! I hope your Republican friend will vote against Trump, even if he or she highplainsdem Feb 2020 #6
Oh she will. mountain grammy Feb 2020 #78
blue, no matter who CMYK Feb 2020 #3
Fully on board with blue no matter who. DanTex Feb 2020 #4
I agree Progress_Dem Feb 2020 #5
Funny, that's how I feel about Sanders. Zolorp Feb 2020 #8
And that is your right Progress_Dem Feb 2020 #10
Did anyone argue it's not in fact, a right? LanternWaste Feb 2020 #21
I agree NYFlip Feb 2020 #154
There is another way to look at this. Zolorp Feb 2020 #156
Actually, they would be, since no matter who our nominee is, our goal is still to defeat Trump. highplainsdem Feb 2020 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author Progress_Dem Feb 2020 #13
I'm sure your friends are nice, idealistic, and want what's best for the country. But if they truly highplainsdem Feb 2020 #15
Again, Progress_Dem Feb 2020 #17
So weigh the concerns about Bloomberg against the concerns about Trump. highplainsdem Feb 2020 #24
Your friends would find a someone that has spent millions to elect Democrats up and down the ticket, LongtimeAZDem Feb 2020 #39
I despair at the thought of either Bloomberg or Sanders being the nominee. cab67 Feb 2020 #110
If the progressives do not unite behind the Democrat nominee, overleft Feb 2020 #71
No rebe303 Feb 2020 #55
This message was self-deleted by its author rebe303 Feb 2020 #61
I will never understand how anyone we nominate mountain grammy Feb 2020 #94
Nope TheRealNorth Feb 2020 #129
No, I would absolutely vote for Bloomberg if he were the nominee. musicblind Feb 2020 #132
It happens in every election, though. Zolorp Feb 2020 #7
I haven't voted 3rd party for president since Ross Perot. FoxNewsSucks Feb 2020 #11
Well said! Progress_Dem Feb 2020 #14
I don't understand this thinking. squirecam Feb 2020 #37
O-M-G!!!!! MyOwnPeace Feb 2020 #70
This isn't just about voting for the Democrat ... nolawarlock Feb 2020 #166
This message was self-deleted by its author RandiFan1290 Feb 2020 #12
Well they should not have ... nolawarlock Feb 2020 #167
Yes and No booley Feb 2020 #16
If you squirecam Feb 2020 #42
Yeah that doesnt' work booley Feb 2020 #84
Gore lost squirecam Feb 2020 #89
Still not picking up what I am putting down booley Feb 2020 #153
You're not picking up what they're putting down ... nolawarlock Feb 2020 #168
I know people like to think that everything is the same. Jakes Progress Feb 2020 #96
Every year is different booley Feb 2020 #155
Tell yourself that in 2021. Jakes Progress Feb 2020 #169
Do Ingersollman Feb 2020 #97
And WHY do they vote until they are dead? booley Feb 2020 #158
Absolutely Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Feb 2020 #18
Or you could actually try to win them over. Act_of_Reparation Feb 2020 #19
You can't win them over in the numbers necessary, and you cannot count on them regardless LongtimeAZDem Feb 2020 #26
I guess it also depends on what you mean by Compromise" booley Feb 2020 #88
There's a big difference between voting 3rd party and not voting. Kurt V. Feb 2020 #20
not in this case. a vote for aa third party candidate is a vote for the republicans/trump certainot Feb 2020 #67
i was speaking to the comment on non-voters only. i agree with 3rd party part (not the Kurt V. Feb 2020 #98
Interesting responses to you. Bookmarking this one for later. Amimnoch Feb 2020 #22
Absolutely. THAT is our core basis of unity. Tom Rinaldo Feb 2020 #23
I'm Drum, and I agree with this message Drum Feb 2020 #25
Love it! MyOwnPeace Feb 2020 #59
Sure. I agree with that. MineralMan Feb 2020 #27
Agreed. And recommended. guillaumeb Feb 2020 #28
Yes Rider3 Feb 2020 #29
25% of sanders supporters did this in 2016 Gothmog Feb 2020 #30
Not all Bernie primary voters were Democrats. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #33
A vote for Jill Stein was still a vote for trump and Putin Gothmog Feb 2020 #35
Mathematically incorrect. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #38
No you are wrong Gothmog Feb 2020 #48
That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #50
LOL you are wrong Gothmog Feb 2020 #51
Absoluetly not on both counts. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #52
PA, MI & WI - the number of Jill Stein voters was larger than Trump's margin of victory Gothmog Feb 2020 #140
You can post it a thousand times, it doesn't make it meaningful. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #145
Denial is not just a river in Africa Gothmog Feb 2020 #147
Again, a mathematically invalid claim. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #150
Read the material posted Gothmog Feb 2020 #159
None of the material you posted proves that. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #160
You are wrong on the math and the concepts Gothmog Feb 2020 #162
No, YOU are wrong on the math. This has been hashed over elsewhere in the thread. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #163
Again, you are totally and completely wrong Gothmog Feb 2020 #171
You're mixing behavior and math. Please stop. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #173
So why did Russia spend some much time and effort supporting stein and sanders/ Gothmog Feb 2020 #177
"Your're mixing behavior and math..." lapucelle Feb 2020 #178
You are using facts Gothmog Feb 2020 #181
Exactly. See the left column? Those are the ones that ACTUALLY voted for Trump. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #182
The ones who didn't vote... lapucelle Feb 2020 #187
Sorry, I'm not particularly interested in proofreading grammar on this sort of site. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #189
Like I said, thoughtful, cogent, expert analysis is available for anyone who's interested. N/T lapucelle Feb 2020 #190
And basic arithmetic is as well. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #191
I live in the real world and I have worked on actual campaigns Gothmog Feb 2020 #180
A wasted vote is no different than the voter staying home and not bothering. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #183
I live in the real world and have to deal with real republicans Gothmog Feb 2020 #185
That totally makes sense. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #188
(facepalm) NYMinute Feb 2020 #192
You simply assume they would vote for your preferred candidate. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #194
Brian Schaffner uses statistics to elucidate behavior. lapucelle Feb 2020 #179
No. You are wrong. What you are saying is mathematically incorrect. whopis01 Feb 2020 #137
trump's victory margin smaller than total Stein votes in key swing states Gothmog Feb 2020 #139
It is mathematically incorrect to say not voting, or a third party vote is a vote for the opponent. whopis01 Feb 2020 #161
Nope; that's how it works. LongtimeAZDem Feb 2020 #54
This argument gets trotted out every election, ostensibly, by the team that lost. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #58
Nope. Shout all you want, but nope. LongtimeAZDem Feb 2020 #64
That changes absolutely nothing. Not even in a one-vote-margin case. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #72
Here, let's do a finite, 21 vote hypothetical. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #76
Why would someone think they are so pure Jakes Progress Feb 2020 #100
I get it. I'm on-board with that message. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #108
Playing logic games with this is not a good thing. Jakes Progress Feb 2020 #136
Telling the stay at homes to 'suck it up' worked last time. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #146
Bad math. Bad math. Jakes Progress Feb 2020 #170
It is what it is. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #172
You simply refuse to acknowledge Jakes Progress Feb 2020 #184
If 90 million eligible voters hadn't stayed home, we wouldn't have trump. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #186
Except that there are only two real-world output states for the intent, candidate A or candidate B: LongtimeAZDem Feb 2020 #104
You assume the voter's intent. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #111
The voter's intent is irrelevant due to the limited possible outcomes LongtimeAZDem Feb 2020 #116
For YOUR purposes. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #118
That would prove the OP's premise quite effectively LongtimeAZDem Feb 2020 #122
I think it would be foolish to vote any other way than the D nominee, particularly this election. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #130
Because it is true Gothmog Feb 2020 #141
You don't get to assume they might have voted for Hillary if Jill Stein was not available. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #144
Denial is not just a river in Africa Gothmog Feb 2020 #148
Keep in mind that the bulk of those votes didn't occur in swing states Quixote1818 Feb 2020 #40
A vote for Jill Stein was still a vote for trump and Putin Gothmog Feb 2020 #45
Still mathematically incorrect. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #49
Did you vote for Jill Stein and trump/Putin? Gothmog Feb 2020 #53
No. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #56
Simple; one of the two candidates is going to win. The way you vote influences which way the scale LongtimeAZDem Feb 2020 #63
A voter that stays home, or throws away a vote to random third party does not make AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #68
Not in the real world Gothmog Feb 2020 #142
Yes, math still applies in the real world. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #143
The math supports me in the real world Gothmog Feb 2020 #149
Also a good point. Some do it just to keep a 3rd party on the next ballot. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #47
There will always be people like that on both sides of the political fence. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #31
Posilutely. marble falls Feb 2020 #32
Anyone not voting D is voting for tRump! PaulRevere08 Feb 2020 #34
Fuck yes! nt Quixote1818 Feb 2020 #36
Dem voting 3rd party is as bad as voting for Benedict Donald. Pepsidog Feb 2020 #41
exactly!! subana Feb 2020 #43
You got THAT right!!!!! MyOwnPeace Feb 2020 #79
AnyBODY who does that is a fool. Tiggeroshii Feb 2020 #44
Humoring any belief they might have that not voting or voting third party is somehow wiser or more highplainsdem Feb 2020 #77
Not sure if you've ever been bullied, but being alienated doesn't make one more sympathetic Tiggeroshii Feb 2020 #80
Well, OK, you got THAT right too! MyOwnPeace Feb 2020 #83
Fools is a mild description. nt cstanleytech Feb 2020 #46
There's only one of three excuses not to vote meow2u3 Feb 2020 #57
One other cannabis_flower Feb 2020 #99
i agree. barbtries Feb 2020 #60
Wholeheartedly yes. calimary Feb 2020 #62
Fuhrer Drumpf is so bad... Cornell Engineer Feb 2020 #65
Oh, CRUD!!!! MyOwnPeace Feb 2020 #91
No problem Cornell Engineer Feb 2020 #105
Yes! Silver1 Feb 2020 #66
Imma caucus for Liz tonight jayschool2013 Feb 2020 #69
Good for you! And I hope Warren picks up some delegates in Iowa. The latest polling shows that highplainsdem Feb 2020 #82
Yes. Turin_C3PO Feb 2020 #73
Absolutely agree -- Let's NOT have another 4 years of Trump!! n/t whathehell Feb 2020 #74
We here at the vast Magoo48 compound wholeheartedly concur. Magoo48 Feb 2020 #75
My niece is a Berner and says if Bernie is not the nominee she won't vote. Still In Wisconsin Feb 2020 #81
Please be kind and rational with her. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #174
We sure as hell better be able to. ramen Feb 2020 #85
I agree wholeheartedly geardaddy Feb 2020 #86
count me in. Eom tiredtoo Feb 2020 #87
I'd vote for Mickey Mouse grumpyduck Feb 2020 #90
Absolutely Ingersollman Feb 2020 #92
Ideological purity is a lot of it. I would even vote for Sanders if it was him against Trump. keithbvadu2 Feb 2020 #93
1000% agree!!! nt Doremus Feb 2020 #95
Of course. dewsgirl Feb 2020 #101
Any Democrat who does not vote in this upcoming election is, I suggest: PatrickforO Feb 2020 #102
Agree! bluestarone Feb 2020 #103
They're not just fools. cab67 Feb 2020 #106
BS Thread! QualTest Feb 2020 #107
Interesting perspective from someone new to posting.............. MyOwnPeace Feb 2020 #124
Uh QualTest Feb 2020 #127
Can we agree NOT to call eachother FOOLS, please? elleng Feb 2020 #109
I'm not recommending calling them fools to their faces. But it's important not to enable their highplainsdem Feb 2020 #115
Your OP is quite different from this post. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #175
Can DUers agree that those who publicly call other Dems fools MGKrebs Feb 2020 #112
I can't dismiss anyone in late teens or early 20s as fools Warpy Feb 2020 #113
So don't use that word. But point out where they're wrong, where they're highplainsdem Feb 2020 #119
of course.. I'm not a child who will pitch a fit and pout nini Feb 2020 #114
Yup, happy to agree with that. Kentonio Feb 2020 #117
Concur. 110%. SKKY Feb 2020 #120
I agree that they are not actually Democrats. Nitram Feb 2020 #121
My right to choose is not limited to abortion issues. My right to choose encompasses any issue in2herbs Feb 2020 #123
I definitely will. Ruth Bader Ginsburg deserves to retire in peace. herding cats Feb 2020 #125
co-signed Blue_Tires Feb 2020 #126
Unfortunately Dem4Life1102 Feb 2020 #128
Of course, I agree. n/t musicblind Feb 2020 #131
What possible purpose does this question serve? BlueWI Feb 2020 #133
You are NEVER going to get policy positions that all Dems agree on. And that's why I posted highplainsdem Feb 2020 #134
My post mentioned advertising and communication, BlueWI Feb 2020 #135
+1 AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #151
I hear you. BlueWI Feb 2020 #164
The funny thing is The Revolution Feb 2020 #138
Those people exist on the right as well. AtheistCrusader Feb 2020 #152
Absolutely. nt Hortensis Feb 2020 #157
Yep. No doubt. n/t Laelth Feb 2020 #176
Oh hell yeah Hekate Feb 2020 #193
 

wyldwolf

(43,865 posts)
1. I agree with that.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:08 PM
Feb 2020

We've seen 'progressives' go third party / threaten not to vote a number of times. Sometime we still win (1948), sometimes we don't (1968, 2000)

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mountain grammy

(26,571 posts)
2. I agree with that, no problem.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:12 PM
Feb 2020

And one of my best friends, a lifelong republican, also agrees.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

highplainsdem

(48,730 posts)
6. Thanks! I hope your Republican friend will vote against Trump, even if he or she
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:24 PM
Feb 2020

doesn't agree with Democrats on very many issues.

I've been encouraged by seeing NeverTrumpers on Twitter telling other Republicans unhappy with Trump to vote blue, no matter who.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mountain grammy

(26,571 posts)
78. Oh she will.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:03 PM
Feb 2020

When she told me she had concerns about some Democratic candidates I asked is trump worse? Yes of course he is. She will vote for the Democratic candidate for the third time in a row, she just wishes it would be Obama again. I can’t disagree with that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

CMYK

(106 posts)
3. blue, no matter who
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:15 PM
Feb 2020

I've voted in every election since I was 18, and whoever the nominee is will have my vote.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
4. Fully on board with blue no matter who.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:23 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Progress_Dem

(96 posts)
5. I agree
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:23 PM
Feb 2020

with this concerning all the candidates except Bloomberg. If he is the nominee, then I can fully understand why some Democrats would have a hard time voting for him. And they wouldn't be fools because of that struggle.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Zolorp

(1,115 posts)
8. Funny, that's how I feel about Sanders.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:26 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Progress_Dem

(96 posts)
10. And that is your right
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:28 PM
Feb 2020

I don't think you are a fool though!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
21. Did anyone argue it's not in fact, a right?
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:51 PM
Feb 2020

If not, it seems irrelevant. At best.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NYFlip

(323 posts)
154. I agree
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:36 AM
Feb 2020

I’ll vote for the dem. I say if Bloomberg isn’t a Democrat neither is Bernie

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Zolorp

(1,115 posts)
156. There is another way to look at this.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:41 AM
Feb 2020

If Sanders is a Dem now, then Sanders was a Communist in 1980.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

highplainsdem

(48,730 posts)
9. Actually, they would be, since no matter who our nominee is, our goal is still to defeat Trump.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:27 PM
Feb 2020

Hesitating to vote for the Democratic nominee would mean that they find Trump as acceptable, or almost as acceptable. And that they might be wiilling to help inflict Trump on the country and the planet for at least one more term because they'd have preferred another Democratic candidate.

That's both foolish and selfish.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to highplainsdem (Reply #9)

 

highplainsdem

(48,730 posts)
15. I'm sure your friends are nice, idealistic, and want what's best for the country. But if they truly
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:42 PM
Feb 2020

find Bloomberg as unacceptable as the sociopathic criminal Russian asset in the White House, they can't be thinking very clearly.

Trump's an existential threat to the country, and the planet.

Bloomberg isn't.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Progress_Dem

(96 posts)
17. Again,
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:44 PM
Feb 2020

I understand where you are coming from. But I also understand where those who have serious concerns about Bloomberg are coming from too. And I share a lot of those concerns.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

highplainsdem

(48,730 posts)
24. So weigh the concerns about Bloomberg against the concerns about Trump.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:57 PM
Feb 2020

If your friends think there's no difference, and they decide not to vote or vote 3rd party, that's their choice. But choices have consequences, and they'd be enabling Trump to win re-election. They'll really have no right to complain about Trump in the future if they can't be bothered to vote against him.

I've never seen a perfect politician, a perfect candidate. They don't exist.

And any member of a party also has to consider that there are lots of other members of that party.

I don't want Sanders to be our nominee, but if he is, I'll have absolutely no trouble putting together arguments for why he's better than Trump. Because he is. As Bloomberg is. Neither one would be my preference. But I'm not the only vote in the party.

And while my vote might help as part of a blue wave, it's valueless -- and I may as well not have the right to vote -- if I don't vote, or vote for a third party candidate with no chance of winning in a crucial election.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
39. Your friends would find a someone that has spent millions to elect Democrats up and down the ticket,
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:24 PM
Feb 2020

who founded a major liberal news organization, and whose positions have been largely progressive for his entire career would be as "unacceptable as they find Trump"?

I can see people having trouble with many of his positions, but as unacceptable as Trump? Donald Trump?!?!?

That is absolutely absurd.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

cab67

(2,963 posts)
110. I despair at the thought of either Bloomberg or Sanders being the nominee.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:49 PM
Feb 2020

Neither one is electable, for reasons beyond people sanctimoniously staying home and letting the rest of us deal with the outcome. (I can go into the details another time, as I'm in between work projects ahead of the caucuses. Guess which state I live in....)

All that aside, I have no patience for "you have to earn my vote" or "they're both just as bad" (meaning the Republican and Democratic candidates). We live with a two-party system. I don't like it either, but unless both parties are broken up at the same time (something that won't happen short of a constitutional convention), protest votes do nothing to break the system up. Quite the opposite is true - they make the other party stronger. I don't have much use for Bloomberg or Sanders, but I will absolutely vote for either one if either is nominated, and I'll work my ass off to get everyone else to do the same.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

overleft

(353 posts)
71. If the progressives do not unite behind the Democrat nominee,
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:53 PM
Feb 2020

whomever it is, it will give more leeway to tRump. As the saying goes "We must hang together or we shall hang separately". The right wing thugs mean business when they threaten liberals. Support whichever candidate that the primary voters choose.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

rebe303

(143 posts)
55. No
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:33 PM
Feb 2020

They would be fools.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to Progress_Dem (Reply #5)

 

mountain grammy

(26,571 posts)
94. I will never understand how anyone we nominate
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:15 PM
Feb 2020

Would be unacceptable compared to trump. Just no! Every vote against trump must be for the Democrat running against trump. This isn’t a game show.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

TheRealNorth

(9,435 posts)
129. Nope
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 06:21 PM
Feb 2020

Bloomberg is still better than Trump.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

musicblind

(4,484 posts)
132. No, I would absolutely vote for Bloomberg if he were the nominee.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 06:24 PM
Feb 2020

He has all the qualifications I need for a Democrat vs Trump... a torso.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Zolorp

(1,115 posts)
7. It happens in every election, though.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:25 PM
Feb 2020

And it is this point in the primaries where the cries of "my candidate or nobody" always ring out.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

FoxNewsSucks

(10,375 posts)
11. I haven't voted 3rd party for president since Ross Perot.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:29 PM
Feb 2020

I'd bet the same goes for a lot of people. It's so encouraging to constantly see these posts who bash people with a different opinion. Of course I know who I will have to vote for, but seeing these posts all the time doesn't help your argument at all.

The reason I used to vote 3rd party was because the choice was between two mediocre establishment candidates. Since then, I have voted Democratic, mainly because the republicons suck so much.

I, and many others, are sick of my vote being taken for granted. Sick of having a stale establishment corporate-friendly democratic candidate as the only choice other than a deranged fascist. So tired of being told I just have to settle.

When someone tells you "progressives" or "young people" won't vote, instead of deriding them or calling them fools, stop and think for a minute. Those people, likely the ones who polls say have a non-democratic 2nd choice, are WANTING to vote FOR something. Not just against a deranged, corrupt fascist. Their first choice is someone they want to vote FOR. Someone they think will not just be the opposite of a deranged drooling fascist, but will actually move the country forward. A lot of them wouldn't have voted for the Democratic candidate, thus the non-democratic 2nd choice. What that means is someone who may not have been a Democrat is now willing to vote Democratic and maybe join the party. It also means the DCCC and corporate donors are willing to turn away voters. Willing to stifle the growth and future of the party. Willing to miss out on adding new members to the Democratic party.

So please, think about who the fools really are before you continue to alienate a lot of good people . I'd like to see the Democratic party grow, and return to the liberal policies that would benefit us all.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

squirecam

(2,706 posts)
37. I don't understand this thinking.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:24 PM
Feb 2020

The democratic nominee WILL make massive changes to the system. A public option, for example, would really change the way health care is done. You have private companies now having to compete with the government.

The *only* people who believe that the dem nominee won’t bring massive change are those who think Sanders is where the “middle” of the party should lie. Which is stunningly absurd.

These people *wont* spend the time joining the party, and working for change inside it, because the DNC is too centrist. But they demand that the DNC make changes to benefit them....it’s crazy.

Change does require work. If you won’t work within the party to change it, then you get the nominee the Democratic Party wants.

As far as enthusiasm, if people aren’t motivated to get rid of Trump, that’s on them. You don’t need to be excited this year. You need to be angry enough to get rid of him.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MyOwnPeace

(16,888 posts)
70. O-M-G!!!!!
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:53 PM
Feb 2020

What a great line - and that is exactly what needs to be preached!

"You don’t need to be excited this year. You need to be angry enough to get rid of him."

WOW! We need posters, billboards, and bumper stickers for that because it is SO true.

We SHOULD be able to work through all of the "other" stuff - actually, we NEED to be able to. We saw what happened the last time we opted not to.

This time, we MUST work together to make sure that he is gone - finished - chased - thrown out - tossed - booted - kick out - whatever you choose to say to make sure that we save this great democracy and its people. It could be our last chance.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
166. This isn't just about voting for the Democrat ...
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 05:18 PM
Feb 2020

This is about voting against what Bernie Sanders himself called the most dangerous president in history. While I think he's partly responsible for putting that president in the Oval Office, the point is that some of us don't have the luxury of waiting it out. What Trump is doing to the court system is dangerous to many marginalized people and the worst thing about Bernie is the delusion that fixing the class struggle will fix things for marginalized people. Never mind that communist China wasn't friendly to gays and corporate billionaire Oprah was given the side eye while trying to buy a purse in Switzerland that the clerk didn't think a woman of color could afford. Class, race, homophobia, and the rest are all separate issues that are going to need solutions for each. Those of us in these marginalized groups may not survive another four years of Trump. If voters have the luxury of waiting it out, or if they are in these marginalized groups and are willing to hit rock bottom with another four years Trump in the hopes that some class-struggle savior will come along, fine for them. But I knew the moment that Trump, in 2016, promised to nominate only from a list of 21 Scalia-like justices provided by the Federalist Society and Heritage Foundation that, not only would he be the Republican nominee, he would get the Evangelicals no matter how vulgar and immoral he actually is. So many friends who voted Trump (most of whom now regret) didn't seem to realize that Scalia voted in 2004 to keep sodomy laws in place that would put my kind in jail. This is certainly not something that any of the current crop of candidates on our side would do, so I frankly resent anyone with a hateful vengeance at this point that would vote either Trump or sit home over some idea of "corporate-friendly" whatever. I despise Bernie Sanders. I find him revolting. And there are days I think another heart attack might save me the aggravation of having to choose between him and Trump. That's how much I dislike him. But I will still vote for him if he's the nominee so not only do I think anyone who sits home or votes third party is a fool. I think they are the worst kind of scum.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

Response to highplainsdem (Original post)

 

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
167. Well they should not have ...
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 05:23 PM
Feb 2020

… and I do think the 2016 purge of the Jaded, Pining Miserables was necessary too. Bernie himself referred to Trump as the most dangerous president in history. How does one sit home or vote third party when the saintly savior himself makes a statement like that?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

booley

(3,855 posts)
16. Yes and No
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:44 PM
Feb 2020

I can agree that voting third party is unlikely to get the person you want into office.
And not voting only helps Republicans.

However (you knew there would be a However)

..... No one is entitled to anyone's vote.

Democrats as a party don't ask enough WHY some don't' vote and others vote third party. Instead, we scream at them and I will let you in on a little secret.

That NEVER works.

No one has ever been vote shamed into voting Democrat. Saying Trump s bad isn't enough. Democrats have to convince people they are worth voting FOR. This was a lesson we learned in 2008 and then for some reason forgot.

Again No one is entitled to anyone's vote. If voters won't vote for someone, that is on the candidate, not the voter.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

squirecam

(2,706 posts)
42. If you
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:25 PM
Feb 2020

Stay home or vote third party, you enable Trumps destruction of the constitution.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

booley

(3,855 posts)
84. Yeah that doesnt' work
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:06 PM
Feb 2020

Yes you can make that case for Trump.

We did make that case against trump in 2016

We made that same case for Bush in 2000 and 2004.

And it did not work. I have yet to see one time when it did much less the millions of changed minds required to swing an election.

So what I am saying is maybe if we want to win we should do something different from the times we lost. We are thinking about this all the wrong way.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

squirecam

(2,706 posts)
89. Gore lost
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:11 PM
Feb 2020

Due to the butterfly ballot fiasco. But also he lost Due to the GREEN party voting for Nader.

Gore would have been the best environmentally friendly President.....well ever really. Instead, that tp vote gave us Bush.

So no, what we need to try is no tp spoilers.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

booley

(3,855 posts)
153. Still not picking up what I am putting down
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:36 AM
Feb 2020

Never mind that you assume you would have had those votes to begin with

Never mind that it was so close that a few hundred people could change the election.

And never mind that almost a hundred thousand voters were cut off from the voter rolls when they should not have been and maybe we should have been a little more focused on that.


If someone won't vote for a candidate, that is on the candidate. Screaming Do what I want has not made people do what you in al the history of people not doing what you want.

Your argument implies the voter doesn't' own their vote. One of the two major parties do. And that attitude is part of the problem.

Again, a candidate has ot earn those votes, not just show up because you want to.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

nolawarlock

(1,729 posts)
168. You're not picking up what they're putting down ...
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 05:32 PM
Feb 2020

… and that, with Trump, it's no longer about the onus being on the candidate or about whether you owe anyone their vote. By sitting home or voting third party you would be hurting your fellow Americans who are marginalized deliberately and strategically, willing to hurt whoever Trump's courts will throw in jail for being gay, whose marriages will be overturned, people of color whose voting ryouights will be curtained and law enforcement who will be exonerated for killing people of color. Yes, I think the blood of those people is on the Bernie or Bust people from 2016 and it will be again.

And if marginalized people mean nothing to you or if you are in a marginalized category and you're willing to drag the rest of us down the nihilistic hole of potential disaster in homes of getting a less "corporate-friendly" choice, how about the fact that this president is probably the most likely in all of modern history to use our nuclear weapons like a kid pulling toys out of a toy box. Bernie is so pro-environment. How hard will it be for the environment to bounce back from Trump's nuclear toy box?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Jakes Progress

(11,121 posts)
96. I know people like to think that everything is the same.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:18 PM
Feb 2020

This isn't 1992. It isn't 2000. It isn't even 2016.

This is different. Those who don't see that are in a position to help eliminate democracy in America.

All of this "America has been through this" and "America always survives" shit is just stupid.

I am not a big fan of Bernie. He is my least favorite candidate.

I don't care. If he is the nominee, he gets my money, my time, and my vote. Anyone who sees this a chance to hedge a bet against future frustration is short-sighted and, frankly, just silly.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

booley

(3,855 posts)
155. Every year is different
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:39 AM
Feb 2020

But like Mark Twain said, History never repeats but it often rhymes.

You can say what you want to do. But if you want to win you have to get others to do it too.

Screaming at them about how they are destroying America isn't' going to cut it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Jakes Progress

(11,121 posts)
169. Tell yourself that in 2021.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 07:06 PM
Feb 2020

This isn't a word game. This is serious.

No one is screaming at anyone (except for one candidate and his followers). Just trying to get people to get over themselves. Notice who my chosen candidate is. That's who I would like to see in the Oval Office. But, I don't even begin to think that this country will elect someone that competent; we didn't in 2016. So, whoever gets then nom, I will vote for.

If someone thinks their very unique vote is that precious, then throwing it away is just silly.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Ingersollman

(204 posts)
97. Do
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:22 PM
Feb 2020

you understand that one of the main reasons we are where we are today is that the GOP votes red until they're dead? They don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
We all want a candidate that will appeal to us personally, one that we believe will do what's best for the country.
We should also be able to recognized the danger that the country is in at this present moment, and do what we can to make things better. Maybe not perfect, but better.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

booley

(3,855 posts)
158. And WHY do they vote until they are dead?
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:57 AM
Feb 2020

sorry but you all are asking the wrong questions here. Everything in that post tells me you didnt'grok my point. So let me see if I can explain it another way...

Would you agree that republicans vote in the numbers they do because they are motivated?

We can agree on that, right?

Now a lot of that motivation is fear. And that won't work for us. Fear make speopel more conservative and thus more Republican

What would motivate people to vote for Democrats?

So some harsh truth.

A lot of those voters you want to vote for Democrats aren't doing purity tests. They dont' see it as "perfection is the enemy of the good" because they don't' think Democrats actually mean it. They think Democrats just say the right things to get elected.

Let me say that again. The voters you want to get think Democrats don't mean it.

Wanting insulin without having to go broke isn't about perfection. It's about people's lives
Needing a job that will pay the bills isn't about perfection. Its about people's lives
Heading off the worst environmental catastrophe in human history isn't about perfection. It's about people's lives.

And every time a candidate proposes small changes or says we can't' do anything about it, all that says is that candidate doesn't' really care.It says they cant' fight the Republicans because they have negotiated away any position they already had.


So again I ask, how are YOU going to convince THEm that it isn't just platitudes?

Sorry but some of you need to get off DU and actually TALK to people. By which I mean Listen to people.






If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin

(107,102 posts)
18. Absolutely
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:46 PM
Feb 2020

Even if I have to hold my nose per our eventual nominee I'm voting against Trump.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
19. Or you could actually try to win them over.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:47 PM
Feb 2020

But then, compromising doesn't give one the same satisfaction as finding a lonely hill to be right on.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
26. You can't win them over in the numbers necessary, and you cannot count on them regardless
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:15 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

booley

(3,855 posts)
88. I guess it also depends on what you mean by Compromise"
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:10 PM
Feb 2020

I mean if someone wants to cut off your head, ho do you compromise on that? Is compromise a good idea.?

I mean the GOP wants to destroy Socal Security and Medicare. What is the compromise that doesn't' weaken those programs halfway to destruction?

Yes, we would be better off trying to win people over. Or the many who already agree with us but don't realize it because Democrats in power have compromised too much.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Kurt V.

(5,624 posts)
20. There's a big difference between voting 3rd party and not voting.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:48 PM
Feb 2020

Your comments about non-voters is uninformed.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
67. not in this case. a vote for aa third party candidate is a vote for the republicans/trump
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:50 PM
Feb 2020

and considering the amt of trolling and voter suppression increasingly used by republicans and foreign interests that conclusion should be a no-brainer

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Kurt V.

(5,624 posts)
98. i was speaking to the comment on non-voters only. i agree with 3rd party part (not the
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:25 PM
Feb 2020

Condescending language but the sentiment) . Its ill informed and i'd suggest if ppl were actually interestedt in why some ppl don't vote they should go to poorest parts of this country and ask them. hint: its not bc they're dumb.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Amimnoch

(4,558 posts)
22. Interesting responses to you. Bookmarking this one for later.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:52 PM
Feb 2020

I suspect there's a fair chance that I'll be using some of the responses as an example.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
23. Absolutely. THAT is our core basis of unity.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 02:53 PM
Feb 2020

I would go to the mat for Mike Bloomberg against a mob of raging radicals if it came to that. Any candidate I know of who has a prayer of winning the Democratic nomination will require our total support if she or he heads the Democratic line come November

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Drum

(8,911 posts)
25. I'm Drum, and I agree with this message
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:13 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MyOwnPeace

(16,888 posts)
59. Love it!
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:38 PM
Feb 2020

Eyes were getting glazed over - then this!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
27. Sure. I agree with that.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:16 PM
Feb 2020

Everyone here really has to agree with that. Some might not vote or vote 3rd party, or even for Trump, but they won't admit to it here. Some here also can't vote at all. We have some Canadian DUers and some from other countries.

Really, though, it is not DUers who matter. We're a small group. Only a handful of Jill Stein voters in 2016 in those three states that turned the election over to Trump were DUers. There were a few, though. Mostly, they're not here now, at least under the names they used then.

Bottom line is that some people don't do what they say they will do. Some people are pretenders and do not share our overall beliefs, I have no doubt.

I will vote for every Democratic candidate and our Democratic Party nominee for President. I'm certain of that, because I have never done otherwise.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Rider3

(919 posts)
29. Yes
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:17 PM
Feb 2020

Totally agree with you.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
30. 25% of sanders supporters did this in 2016
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:18 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
33. Not all Bernie primary voters were Democrats.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:21 PM
Feb 2020

It is unrealistic to assume they will completely accept a different candidate on the same platform.

The same is true of people on the other side. Lots of Ron Paul supporters never voted for Mitt Romney, after their primary blew up. Those people were probably not Republicans, and therefore not beholden to the eventual Republican nominee.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
35. A vote for Jill Stein was still a vote for trump and Putin
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:22 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
38. Mathematically incorrect.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:24 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
48. No you are wrong
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:30 PM
Feb 2020

A vote for Jill Stein or a third party was a vote for trump and Putin

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
50. That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:31 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
51. LOL you are wrong
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:31 PM
Feb 2020

Did you vote for Jill Stein?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
52. Absoluetly not on both counts.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:32 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
140. PA, MI & WI - the number of Jill Stein voters was larger than Trump's margin of victory
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 10:13 AM
Feb 2020

A vote for stein was a vote for trump and putin


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
145. You can post it a thousand times, it doesn't make it meaningful.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:09 AM
Feb 2020

'cost Hillary the election' presumes they would have voted for Hillary under any circumstance, which is not known, and cannot be known.

You cannot assume a vote belongs to a particular candidate.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
147. Denial is not just a river in Africa
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:21 AM
Feb 2020

A vote for stein was a vote for trump and Pitin

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
150. Again, a mathematically invalid claim.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:23 AM
Feb 2020

If Stein was not in the race, those voters could have actually, literally, not indirectly, cast a vote for Trump.
Or they might have stayed home. Or written in 'mickey mouse' and get their ballot thrown on the provisional trash heap that wasn't even counted.

You don't get to assume those votes were ever going to be for Hillary. The only person we can know whom they were for, were the person they were actually cast for.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
159. Read the material posted
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 12:12 PM
Feb 2020

Math works in the real world. trump won in the electoral college due to sanders voters voting for trump or third parties. A vote of Stein was a vote for trump and Putin.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
160. None of the material you posted proves that.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 12:16 PM
Feb 2020

None of that material shows that, for instance, any of those Stein voters WOULD EVER have voted for Hillary under any circumstance.

You don't get to assume they were ever likely or even potential Hillary voters.
Trump won in those contested states, because he received more votes, and that is as far as you can go with this.

Grumping about voters you could never have considered as part of your base, isn't going to help any of us. We didn't get them last time. We need them next time. We need every last vote we can get.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
162. You are wrong on the math and the concepts
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 01:26 PM
Feb 2020

Why are you defending idiots who voted for stein? Did vou vote for stein?

Again a vote for stein was a vote for trump and Putin

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
163. No, YOU are wrong on the math. This has been hashed over elsewhere in the thread.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 01:57 PM
Feb 2020

I am not defending them, I am criticizing your (and others) mis-use of the math and ongoing election meme that is WRONG, and will not attract more voters to our side.

I've also answered the Stein question. No, I voted for Hillary. (And I'm in WA, so I could have been in a coma that November and it wouldn't have mattered)

A vote for Stein DID NOT INCREASE Trump's total votes. It is an unrealized vote for our candidate ONLY if you assume that person could/should/would vote blue no matter who. That is not the reality of EVERY LAST POTENTIAL VOTER.


We need to woo these people, not browbeat them, if we want more votes next time. Stein's not in it this time, is she? Great. Let's go after those votes and show why our candidate NOW is better, and we NEED THEIR SUPPORT in the battleground states. (In which I do not live)

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
171. Again, you are totally and completely wrong
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 07:27 PM
Feb 2020

I am amused by your defense of slimy Stein voters. A vote for Stein was indeed a vote for Russia and trump so far as Russia was concerned. I live in the real world and I saw Russia work like crazy to hurt Clinton by encouraging sanders voters to (I) vote for trump, (ii) stay home or (iii) vote for Stein. Russia was supporting Stein for a reason because Russia knew that a vote for Stein was a vote for trump in the real world. Again Russia lives in the real world and understands the rather simple concept that encouraging voters to vote for Stein or to not vote was in effect a vote for Russian and trump




I note that sufficient votes went to stein to swing the election in favor of trump. In other words, Putin and Russia won because a vote for Stein was a vote for trump and Putin in the real world. That is why Russia spent so much effort promoting sanders and stein



trump won by cheating and help from Russia



The report provides a fresh look at allegations that the Russian-based Internet Research Agency not only interfered in the 2016 campaign on social media on behalf of Donald Trump but also to help Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), a candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination.

Internal IRA documents “referred to support for the Trump campaign and opposition to candidate Clinton,” according to the report. While much of this section of the report is redacted, it cites directions to IRA operators not to harm Sanders.

“Main idea: Use any opportunity to criticize Hillary [Clinton] and the rest (except Sanders and Trump — we support them),” quotes the report.....

While Sanders had said in a previous radio interview that one of his campaign workers figured out what was going on and alerted Clinton campaign officials, his 2016 campaign manager Jeff Weaver told The Post in a recent interview for the story that Sanders “misspoke a little bit and conflated a few of the facts. .?.?. He did not know, I did not know, none of us knew” that Russia was behind the efforts.


See Also https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook-power-briefing/2018/02/16/mueller-indicts-13-russians-for-allegedly-meddling-in-2016-election-fbi-says-protocols-were-not-followed-when-they-received-tip-on-parkland-shooter-va-cos-resigns-249433

KEY LINES … “Some Defendants, posing as U.S. persons and without revealing their Russian association, communicated with unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign and with other political activists to seek to coordinate political activities.”

-- “They engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump.”

The math is really not that hard. Russia succeeded in getting sanders voters to vote for trump and/or Stein in sufficient number to win. In the real world this is how math works.


Math is fun and the math here is clear in the real world
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
173. You're mixing behavior and math. Please stop.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 07:43 PM
Feb 2020

If a voter was convinced by GOP, or Russian assets (or GOP assets that are also Russian) to not vote for Hillary that reduces her vote total by 1.

It does not INCREASE Trump's vote total at all, if they vote for stein, stay home, or write-in mickey mouse.
Therefore, stop saying a vote for stein is a vote for Trump. A vote for trump is a vote for trump. Period. That's math.


I feel sorry for people hoodwinked by such tactics. I am angry that such tactics were deployed.
I want to bring those people back, because WE NEED EVERY LAST FUCKING VOTE WE CAN SCARE UP.

Ask yourself how to entice such a voter back into the fold. How are we going to do that? Yell at them? Tell them they're morons? Tell them they're disloyal or traitors? You and I are on the same page that they shouldn't have done it, that those unrealized votes have given us a little over three years of waking nightmare, with almost a year to go. I know that some of the damage that has been done is irreparable, and it's continuing day after day. But My eyes are on the NEXT four years, and how we wake up from this fucking nightmare.

I have observed, that browbeating people who have made a bad choice, doesn't usually rectify the problem, does it? I can't prove it mathematically, because it's a behavior issue. But the 'vote for mickey mouse is a vote for trump' meme? That's basic math. It's wrong. It's not helping to repeat it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
177. So why did Russia spend some much time and effort supporting stein and sanders/
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 08:19 PM
Feb 2020

I am comfortable with my math skills and your analysis is simply wrong

Russian and Putin knows that a vote for Stein was a vote for trump in the real world and the math set forth above showed that Russia's tactics worked in the real world

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
181. You are using facts
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 11:12 AM
Feb 2020

In the real world the GOP can win an election by suppressing the vote or getting voters to waste their vote on a third party candidate


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
182. Exactly. See the left column? Those are the ones that ACTUALLY voted for Trump.
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 05:34 PM
Feb 2020

The rest effectively didn't vote like ~90 million eligible voters in 2016.

And like those voters, the 90 million eligible voters that didn't vote, they don't count under Trump's tally.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

lapucelle

(18,039 posts)
187. The ones who didn't vote...
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 07:24 PM
Feb 2020

...the eligible voters who didn't vote, not "that [sic] didn't vote". The relative pronoun should match the antecedent.

My post spoke to the bewildering plea, "You're mixing math and behavior. Please stop."

If you're interested in the 2016 data from the CCES, you can read it here.

https://dataverse.harvard.edu/file.xhtml?persistentId=doi:10.7910/DVN/GDF6Z0/RK0ONG&version=4.0

If you're interested in cogent, thoughtful, expert analysis of the data, you can preview and purchase (or ask for an examination copy to be sent to you at the university where you teach) at this link.

https://us.sagepub.com/en-us/nam/making-sense-of-the-2016-elections/book256733

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
189. Sorry, I'm not particularly interested in proofreading grammar on this sort of site.
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 07:35 PM
Feb 2020

This is a political commentary site, not Grammarly. When I'm writing, I proof. Here, I'm snatching what free time I can get ahold of to talk about politics.

If 'math and behavior' is unclear, perhaps substitute 'intent' or 'assumptions'. IN this case the assumption that the votes in play were ever, under any circumstances (including if Stein had been left off the ballot completely) going to be for our candidate. (Edit: I didn't finish that sentence the first time for some reason)

Votes are like stocks in the market. It's not money, until it's money. It could be worth any fantastic amount, but it's not actually money until there is a transaction that has closed, converting it to money. Same with votes. You don't get to assume it's a vote for your candidate, until it's actually cast. When they are cast for a spoiler like Stein, it's morally equivalent to just staying home and watching TV. It was never our actual candidate's vote to count on.

Otherwise, the voters that were called out for abandoning Sanders and going for Trump, would effectively count as TWO votes against Hillary. One negative for Hillary, and one positive for Trump. But that's an illusion and not actually the case. It was only ever one vote per person, and we couldn't count on it or assume it was for our candidate, regardless of whether they intended to give it to Bernie in the beginning.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

lapucelle

(18,039 posts)
190. Like I said, thoughtful, cogent, expert analysis is available for anyone who's interested. N/T
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 07:51 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
191. And basic arithmetic is as well.
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 08:23 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
180. I live in the real world and I have worked on actual campaigns
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 11:10 AM
Feb 2020

I have volunteered a ton of time on voter protection. I have been running war rooms and voter protection operations for a long time. I was one of the 11000 lawyers who went out of state in 2004 for the Kerry Edwards voter protection program (we had 3000 out of state lawyers just in Florida). I can assure that the GOP and evidently Russia knows that the easiest way to win an election is to either suppress the vote or waste the vote. This quote is from the man who founded ALEC



In the real world you win elections ethically by getting people to vote for your candidate or you can use the GOP/Russian method of winning elections by suppressing the vote or getting someone to waste their vote. 2000 is a great example. I will never forgive nader Rove funded Nader in 2000 and 2004 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

Furthermore, Karl Rove and the Republican Party knew this, and so they nurtured and crucially assisted Nader’s campaigns, both in 2000 and in 2004. On 27 October 2000, the AP’s Laura Meckler headlined “GOP Group To Air Pro-Nader TV Ads.” She opened: “Hoping to boost Ralph Nader in states where he is threatening to hurt Al Gore, a Republican group is launching TV ads featuring Nader attacking the vice president [Mr. Gore]. ... ‘Al Gore is suffering from election year delusion if he thinks his record on the environment is anything to be proud of,’ Nader says [in the commercial]. An announcer interjects: ‘What’s Al Gore’s real record?’ Nader says: ‘Eight years of principles betrayed and promises broken.’” Meckler’s report continued: “A spokeswoman for the Green Party nominee said that his campaign had no control over what other organizations do with Nader’s speeches.” Bush’s people - the group sponsoring this particular ad happened to be the Republican Leadership Council - knew exactly what they were doing, even though the liberal suckers who voted so carelessly for Ralph Nader obviously did not. Anyone who drives a car the way those liberal fools voted, faces charges of criminal negligence, at the very least. But this time, the entire nation crashed as a result; not merely a single car.....

On July 9th, the San Francisco Chronicle headlined “GOP Doners Funding Nader: Bush Supporters Give Independent’s Bid a Financial Lift,” and reported that the Nader campaign “has received a recent windfall of contributions from deep-pocketed Republicans with a history of big contributions to the party,” according to “an analysis of federal records.” Perhaps these contributors were Ambassador Egan’s other friends. Mr. Egan’s wife was now listed among the Nader contributors. Another listed was “Nijad Fares, a Houston businessman, who donated $200,000 to the Bush inaugural committee and who donated $2,000 each to the Nader effort and the Bush campaign this year.” Furthermore, Ari Berman reported 7 October 2004 at the Nation, under “Swift Boat Veterans for Nader,” that some major right-wing funders of a Republican smear campaign against Senator John Kerry’s Vietnam service contributed also $13,500 to the Nader campaign, and that “the Republican Party of Michigan gathered ninety percent of Nader’s signatures in their state” (90%!) to place Nader on the ballot so Bush could win that swing state’s 17 electoral votes. Clearly, the word had gone out to Bush’s big contributors: Help Ralphie boy! In fact, on 15 September 2005, John DiStaso of the Manchester Union-Leader, reported that, “A year ago, as the Presidential general election campaign raged in battleground state New Hampshire, consumer advocate Ralph Nader found his way onto the ballot, with the help of veteran Republican strategist David Carney and the Carney-owned Norway Hill Associates consulting firm.”

It was obvious, based upon the 2000 election results, that a dollar contributed to Nader in the 2004 contest would probably be a more effective way to achieve a Bush win against Kerry in the U.S. Presidential election than were perhaps even ten dollars contributed to Bush. This was a way of peeling crucial votes off from Bush’s real opponent - votes that otherwise would have gone to the Democrat. That’s why the smartest Republican money in the 2004 Presidential election was actually going to Nader, even more so than to Bush himself: these indirect Bush contributions provided by far the biggest bang for the right-wing buck.

Again, I live in the real world and I work on actual campaigns. Here a vote for Stein was a vote for trump/Putin just as a vote for Nader in 2000 was a vote for Bush

If you want to actually win a race, you need to live in the real world and understand how the rules operate.

Again, a vote for Stein was a vote for trump/Russia in the real world. Russia and trump will try this same stunt again
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
183. A wasted vote is no different than the voter staying home and not bothering.
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 05:48 PM
Feb 2020

In the Real World(TM) in 1996, were the 8 million votes for Ross Perot actually 8 million votes for Bill Clinton?

Splitting the vote is a real tactic, yes. I agree it's likely to happen again. Many interested parties, beyond the RNC and their Russian puppetmasters will have motive and opportunity, and make overt efforts to split the vote. I don't disagree there.

Where I disagree is saying 'it's a vote for X' when you pick Y candidate. It is simply an unrealized vote for your candidate. It doesn't matter that the Sanders voters above were closer to our platform than the GOP (except the ones that ACTUALLY voted for Trump apparently). Unenthusiastic voters stay home, for the most part. That makes them unrealized votes for your candidate, NOT votes for the opposition. (again, excepting the ones that actually did vote for Trump)

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
185. I live in the real world and have to deal with real republicans
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 06:49 PM
Feb 2020

Again, I live in the real world and I have been volunteering my time for a very long time on voter protection. The fact that I have been working in this area for such long time helped earn me a slot as a delegation to the National Convention. Living in the real world means living by and understanding the metrics used in the real world.

Rove won the 2000 race with Nader. aby diverting sufficient votes for Bush to win. Rove funded Nader for a reason and his efforts worked. Rove does not care if you disagree about the metrics being used. Putin and trump won 2016 with Stein. This is who the real world works. By the metrics used by the GOP, a vote for Nader was a vote for Bush and a vote for Stein was a vote for trump/Putin. You may not agree with this math but these are the metrics being used by the GOP and Russia in the real world.

I have been dealing with GOP voter suppression for a long time. The GOP had a voter id law in effect In 2014 a federal district judge found that the Texas voter id law discriminated against minorities but the opinion was stayed on appeal. Here is a chart that shows the effect of the Texas voter id law on Democratic turnout

Greg Abbott got more votes in 2014 compared to Rick Perry while Wendy Davis got far fewer votes even though she spent more.

In 2016 the 5th Circuit affirmed this ruling and the Texas voter id law was largely gutted so that any registered voter can vote if they lack one of the approved ids and sign a Reasonable Impediment Declaration and provide one of the alternative ids which includes utility bills or bank statements. For college students, out of state drivers license are an approved id. In 2018, Texas voter prarticiation increased a great deal.

Right now Marc Elias has 20 lawsuits pending on GOP voter suppression efforts. (Marc was Clinton's legal election law attorney).



I have steered some additional plaintiffs to a lawsuit filed by the Texas Civil Rights Project on wrongful rejection of absentee ballots


One of my fellow delegates to the National Convention is one of the named plaintiffs in this case

I have to live in the real world to be effective on voter protection efforts. That means that I look at and understand the metrics being sued by the GOP. Rove was successful with Nader and Putin/trump was successful with Stein/sanders. The real world can be a harsh place but one has to live the rules in such world.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
188. That totally makes sense.
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 07:24 PM
Feb 2020

"Rove won the 2000 race with Nader. aby diverting sufficient votes for Bush to win. Rove funded Nader for a reason and his efforts worked. Rove does not care if you disagree about the metrics being used."

The metrics show the diversions lowering the total vote count for the (in this case) D candidate. Absolutely, that's a valid strategy, and they chose correctly in funding it. But in this example, it only reduces the total for our candidate. It doesn't add votes to the republican candidate. It just makes things easier for them. A bad thing certainly, and on its own, COMPLETELY worth paying for, in their eyes. But it still isn't a vote for, in the current case, Trump. (Except the percentage that in fact, directly voted for Trump.)

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NYMinute

(3,256 posts)
192. (facepalm)
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 08:27 PM
Feb 2020

This is called the law of distributed power.

Let's say there are 100 voters in a system. Let's say 90 of them will vote and 10 are out of town, disabled or in a hospital so they will not vote.


Let's say of the 90, 30 are Democrats , 30 are republicans and 30 are independents.

In a given election, let's say the independents are breaking 60:40 towards the Democrat. Then the Democrat will have 48 votes and the republican will have 42 votes. Democrat wins.

Let's add a third party candidate to this mix. Now, 7 Democrats, because of their unhappiness in the primary, vote for the third party candidate and 10 independents do the same. Then the Democrat will have 23+(30-10)*6 or 35 votes. The republican will have 30+(30-10)*4 or 38 votes and the independent (third party) will have 17 votes. The republican wins by 3.

Now imagine if the 7 Democrats don't vote third party, the Democrat will have 30+(30-10)*6 or 42 votes, the republican the same 38 votes and the independent (third party) will have 10 votes. The Democrat wins.

This distributed power becomes more acute the more evenly the independent vote splits. If the independents break 80-20 it has less effect but if they split close to 50-50, ANY defection from the Democrats is catastrophic.

Hope I made it easier to grasp!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
194. You simply assume they would vote for your preferred candidate.
Thu Feb 6, 2020, 11:18 AM
Feb 2020

"Now imagine if the 7 Democrats don't vote third party"

Sure. They write in 'Mickey Mouse' or don't fill out their ballot. We still lose. Because the problem isn't that they had too many options on the ballot.

You identified the actual problem:

"Democrats, because of their unhappiness in the primary,"

That's the thing that desperately needs to be fixed. Not grumping about people who didn't deliver votes to the candidate they claim to be loosely affiliated with the party thereof. Browbeat them all you want, it's not going to induce them to come back, and vote for the final candidate.

Your math is sound. But I note you're not making the case, as others have above, that the 3rd party votes are actually votes for the Republican in this scenario. Because they aren't voting for the Republican, even though their essentially non-participation sinks the Democratic candidate.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

lapucelle

(18,039 posts)
179. Brian Schaffner uses statistics to elucidate behavior.
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 07:01 AM
Feb 2020

He "mixes math [sic] and behavior" all the time.

Brian Frederick Schaffner is a political scientist. He is the Newhouse Professor of Civic Studies at Tufts University and a faculty associate at Harvard University's Institute for Quantitative Social Science. He is also the founding director of the UMass Poll and a co-principal investigator for the Cooperative Congressional Election Study (CCES), a survey of about 50,000 U.S. voters.


https://cces.gov.harvard.edu/


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

whopis01

(3,467 posts)
137. No. You are wrong. What you are saying is mathematically incorrect.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 01:02 AM
Feb 2020

It is a popular thing to say. And the point that voting for a third party instead of voting for the Democrat will be beneficial to the Republicans is correct.

But it is simply mathematically incorrect to say a vote for a third party is a vote for Trump. A vote for Trump hurts the Democratic candidate twice as much as a vote for a third party.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
139. trump's victory margin smaller than total Stein votes in key swing states
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 10:13 AM
Feb 2020

I live in the real world and numbers matter. You are totally wrong https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/308353-trump-won-by-smaller-margin-than-stein-votes-in-all-three

In two key states that President-elect Donald Trump won, his margin of victory was smaller than the total number of votes for Green Party nominee Jill Stein.

In Michigan, Trump defeated Democrat Hillary Clinton by 10,704 votes, while Stein got 51,463 votes, according to current totals on the state’s official website.

And in Wisconsin, Trump’s margin over Clinton was 22,177, while Stein garnered 31,006 votes.

In Pennsylvania, meanwhile, Stein’s total of 49,485 votes was just slightly smaller than Trump’s victory margin of 67,416 votes, according to the state’s latest numbers.

According to this study 25% of sanders supporters either voted for trump, a third party candidate or did not vote which number was more than enough to give trump his electoral college victory


There were sufficient sanders voters who voted from trump to ensure trump's victory


Again, a vote for Stein was a vote for trump and trump is POTUS due to stein and other voters



A vote for stein was a vote for trump and Putin
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

whopis01

(3,467 posts)
161. It is mathematically incorrect to say not voting, or a third party vote is a vote for the opponent.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 12:43 PM
Feb 2020

Let's be clear. I am not encouraging anyone to not vote. Nor am I encouraging them to vote for a third party.

I understand that a third party will hurt the candidate who is closest to that party. They will split the votes. that is obvious.

My problem is with the mathematical incorrectness of saying a vote for the third party is the same as a vote for the opponent. It simply is not true. The point that is being made can be made with factual statements, there is no need to use falsehoods.

Here is as simple of an example as I can provide to explain it.
Say you have 5 people voting. 1 is a solid Republicans. 2 are solid Democrats.

If the remaining two do not vote, or vote for a third party, the result is 2 to 1 in favor of the Democratic candidate.

If the remaining two vote for the Republican, the result is 3 to 2 in favor of the Republican candidate.

Mathematically different. A vote for the opponent hurts more than a vote for a third party.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
54. Nope; that's how it works.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:33 PM
Feb 2020

In this election, as in most, there will be only two candidates with an actual chance of winning, those being the Democratic and Republican nominees.

Every eligible person will "vote", regardless of whether they cast an actual ballot. If they do not cast a ballot for one of the two viable candidates, they will have helped elect the other. Casting a ballot for a candidate that cannot win has the exact same effect as not voting.

That's how it works. Either you tip the scale one way, or by inaction, you allow it to tip the other way.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
58. This argument gets trotted out every election, ostensibly, by the team that lost.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:37 PM
Feb 2020

It's bullshit. It's a trick of perspective.

Unrealized votes for your preferred candidate, are not votes for the opposition candidate, unless, and ONLY if they are ACTUALLY CAST FOR the opposition candidate.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
64. Nope. Shout all you want, but nope.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:45 PM
Feb 2020

Your position would only hold if there were an infinite number of possible votes for each candidate. They're aren't.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
72. That changes absolutely nothing. Not even in a one-vote-margin case.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:56 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
76. Here, let's do a finite, 21 vote hypothetical.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:02 PM
Feb 2020

Imagine a scenario where 10 people have voted for Candidate A and 10 people have voted for Candidate B.

If you vote for Candidate A, the tally is now 11–10. If you vote for Candidate B, the tally is now 10–11.
If you vote for neither, whether you're abstaining or voting for Candidate C, the tally remains 10–10.

10–10 is not the same as 11–10 or 10–11.
A vote for 3rd party, or an abstention from voting, is NOT a vote for the candidate you least like.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Jakes Progress

(11,121 posts)
100. Why would someone think they are so pure
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:26 PM
Feb 2020

and so perfect that their vote is that precious, that they can't be called on to help bring the country into a better world? Is that person's feelings about how special they are worth locking up children, taking away women's rights, dissolving the democracy, and leaving a crap-spewing crazy person at the head of our nuclear arsenal?

Give me a break. Vote for anyone that will remove this shitstain from the White House. Those people need to get over themselves.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
108. I get it. I'm on-board with that message.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:44 PM
Feb 2020

I think we're in deeper shit than we realize right now.

Scolding people into doing the right thing never seems to work. Using bad logic for a good cause isn't productive either.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Jakes Progress

(11,121 posts)
136. Playing logic games with this is not a good thing.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 11:06 PM
Feb 2020

Here's a little reality beyond number games.

If those who stayed home during the 2016 election because their favorite didn't get the nomination had voted for Clinton, we would not have children locked up, women's rights being taken away, and several hundred under 40 lifetime right wingnut judges.

Same goes for those who voted third party because they thought Hillary was "just terrible".

Suck it up. Vote for the Democratic candidate.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
146. Telling the stay at homes to 'suck it up' worked last time.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:11 AM
Feb 2020

Oh right. It NEVER works.

It's not a logic game, it's simple math. We need a huge turnout, we need to win. You're not going to get there by browbeating people over it with bad math.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Jakes Progress

(11,121 posts)
170. Bad math. Bad math.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 07:09 PM
Feb 2020

What part of this do you not get. I'm sorry if you feel that your right to sulk is greater than the need of he country, but it just isn't. If you don't like being browbeaten, see how you like living under an autocrat.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
172. It is what it is.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 07:34 PM
Feb 2020

If you don't like people pointing out that 1+0 is not 1+1, then stop asserting it. It's not how voting works. It's not how basic arithmetic works.

I understand there's an emotional component to VOTING, and specifically, to our upcoming and recent elections, but MATH GIVES ZERO FUCKS ABOUT EMOTIONS.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Jakes Progress

(11,121 posts)
184. You simply refuse to acknowledge
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 06:46 PM
Feb 2020

that had those who did as you suggest voted for Hillary, we wouldn't have trump.

That is math. This is not emotion. This is dealing with reality instead of playing math games because that makes someone feel so removed and cool. It is not cool. It obscures the reality of what happened in 2016 and will happen in 2020.

Some of us do give a fuck about what happens in the election. It seems some don't.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
186. If 90 million eligible voters hadn't stayed home, we wouldn't have trump.
Wed Feb 5, 2020, 07:19 PM
Feb 2020

Do we add them to Trump's totals as well by virtue of them choosing to stay home?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
104. Except that there are only two real-world output states for the intent, candidate A or candidate B:
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:37 PM
Feb 2020

1. A v B
2. ~A
3. B (disjunctive syllogism)

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
111. You assume the voter's intent.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:50 PM
Feb 2020

Maybe the voter wants to keep the green party on the next ballot as a major party in X state. In my state, that's 5% of the total. An openly stated goal of the Libertarian party. They go into it, not hoping to win, but hoping to make the next ballot as a defined Major Party.

Republicans used the same 'you're voting for Hillary' logic on Libertarians that cast votes for Gary Johnson, even though Wa wasn't even close to a battleground state.


It's because the logic is bad. The voter can just stay home. That's not a vote for either Hillary or Trump, nor prospectively, Biden or Trump, depending.

Without knowing who the voter was 'most likely' leaning toward, you can't tell which candidate was helped, short of just assuming 'whoever is behind'.

You will not convert a 3rd party, or conscientious objector voter to get off their ass and vote for your candidate, by telling them that their non-vote or 3rd party vote is a vote for Trump. It's not going to work. It's unsound, and telling people what to do is the best way to get them to do the opposite.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
116. The voter's intent is irrelevant due to the limited possible outcomes
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:53 PM
Feb 2020

And I will refrain from stating what i think of anyone who would choose not to stop Trump just to get a minority party with no chance of winning on the ballot the next time around.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
118. For YOUR purposes.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:58 PM
Feb 2020

Not for the Voter's purposes.

If the voter is, (using my previous example of trying to keep the L party on the ballot as a Major Party) fulfilling their intent for their vote they are casting, then that's the end of it. Republicans don't get to assume that was a vote for Hillary in '16. It's simply not.

The voter wanted their vote to represent X and they cast it, and that's it. Any other re-cast of relevancy by you or I, is meaningless. It's not our vote to define the relevance.

Your vote is your vote, and yours alone. Your purposes are yours alone.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
122. That would prove the OP's premise quite effectively
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 05:04 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
130. I think it would be foolish to vote any other way than the D nominee, particularly this election.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 06:22 PM
Feb 2020

But I don't know if calling them fools is a good way to talk them back in off the ledge.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
144. You don't get to assume they might have voted for Hillary if Jill Stein was not available.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:07 AM
Feb 2020

You cannot possibly pretend to know the mind of every single voter and their intent, and fallback plans.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
148. Denial is not just a river in Africa
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:21 AM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Quixote1818

(28,904 posts)
40. Keep in mind that the bulk of those votes didn't occur in swing states
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:24 PM
Feb 2020

but states like California, NY, Alabama etc. Where they felt safe doing a protest vote and not impacting the end result.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
45. A vote for Jill Stein was still a vote for trump and Putin
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:29 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
49. Still mathematically incorrect.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:30 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
53. Did you vote for Jill Stein and trump/Putin?
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:32 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
56. No.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:34 PM
Feb 2020

Once upon a time, I took a picture of my completed ballot, because I expected challenges like this one, but in all honesty, you're the first person to ever pull this bullshit on me.

I voted for Hillary.

Now, please mathematically prove that a vote for Jill Stein is a vote for Trump.
(I'll save you the effort. You can't.)

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LongtimeAZDem

(4,494 posts)
63. Simple; one of the two candidates is going to win. The way you vote influences which way the scale
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:43 PM
Feb 2020

will tip. If you do not vote to tip it one way, you have allowed it to tip the other way.

There is a finite set of voters that did not want Trump, and since casting a ballot is a deliberate act, do so in a way that removed a vote that would tip it away from Trump, tipped it to him.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
68. A voter that stays home, or throws away a vote to random third party does not make
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:51 PM
Feb 2020

the Republican candidate have one more vote.

Listen to what you are saying. Under what circumstances would a vote for a third party be a vote for Hillary in 2016? (An argument non-republican conservatives made as well)

Feels awkward to say right? It's not math, it's a personal matter of perspective.

It's because to assume that the vote for a 3rd party candidate, or a non-vote, is equivalent to a FULL vote for your preferred candidate opposition, assumes ownership of the voter's vote. You talk in terms as if the vote is owed to your preferred candidate, or the voter is being somehow disloyal. I don't know about you, but I never signed a loyalty oath. (But yes, I did vote for Hillary even after my preferred candidate was defeated in the primary, hence my signature which is Hillary's campaign slogan, at the completion of the primary. It has been so, since the conclusion of the '16 primary.)

You don't own it. It was never yours to assume for your preferred candidate. You have to earn it. Otherwise, they stay home, throw it away, or worst case, ACTUALLY vote for the opposition candidate. THEN you ACTUALLY have voted for the opposition candidate. Then the vote totals that matter in a first-past-the-post election actually move.

No party, no candidate is OWED anything from a prospective voter. If you want to drive voters away, by all means, tell them they MUST vote for your candidate.


Edit: Oh god, 3 years of Trump has given me brain damage or something. Onward came about ~6 months after the election to pool support for Democratic candidates. I'm not going to bother fixing it, I had made other comments after the primary to show support, that can probably be found, if you want to look.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
143. Yes, math still applies in the real world.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:06 AM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(143,999 posts)
149. The math supports me in the real world
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:22 AM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
47. Also a good point. Some do it just to keep a 3rd party on the next ballot.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:29 PM
Feb 2020

I hear libertarians talk about this all the time, just meeting ballot requirements to be listed.

Defections occurred at the Electoral level too. Washington State, solidly blue, 3 EV's went to not-Hillary. (2 to Colin Powell, and 1 to Faith Spotted Eagle.)

United States presidential election in Washington, 2016[4]
Party
Candidate
Running mate
Votes
Percentage
Electoral votes

Democratic
Hillary Clinton
Tim Kaine
1,742,718
54.30%
8

Republican
Donald Trump
Mike Pence
1,221,747
38.07%
0

Libertarian
Gary Johnson
William Weld
160,879
5.01%
0

Write-ins


102,416
3.23%
0

Green
Jill Stein
Ajamu Baraka
58,417
1.82%
0

Constitution
Darrell Castle
Scott Bradley
17,623
0.55%
0

Socialist Workers
Alyson Kennedy
Osborne Hart
4,307
0.13%
0

Socialism and Liberation
Gloria La Riva
Eugene Puryear
3,523
0.11%
0

Republican
Colin Powell

0
0.00%
3

Independent
Faith Spotted Eagle
Winona LaDuke
0
0.00%
1

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
31. There will always be people like that on both sides of the political fence.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:19 PM
Feb 2020

I figure it mostly cancels out, and isn't worth yelling about. Worst case, purity tests may drive away some of our voters.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

PaulRevere08

(449 posts)
34. Anyone not voting D is voting for tRump!
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:22 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Pepsidog

(6,252 posts)
41. Dem voting 3rd party is as bad as voting for Benedict Donald.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:25 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

subana

(586 posts)
43. exactly!!
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:26 PM
Feb 2020

not voting, to me, is no different than voting for the asshole in charge now because it makes it a little more likely that he will get another 4 yrs!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MyOwnPeace

(16,888 posts)
79. You got THAT right!!!!!
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:04 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
44. AnyBODY who does that is a fool.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:29 PM
Feb 2020

But calling them fools won't make them more likely to vote or for our person.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

highplainsdem

(48,730 posts)
77. Humoring any belief they might have that not voting or voting third party is somehow wiser or more
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:03 PM
Feb 2020

principled certainly won't help.

And that will make it easier to sit out the next election, if they don't get exactly the candidate they want.

At the very least, they should have to explain WHY their not voting for the nominee isn't foolish. If they have to take a closer look at their reasoning, they might realize how weak it is.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Tiggeroshii

(11,088 posts)
80. Not sure if you've ever been bullied, but being alienated doesn't make one more sympathetic
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:05 PM
Feb 2020

to the other peoples' perspectives.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

MyOwnPeace

(16,888 posts)
83. Well, OK, you got THAT right too!
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:06 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
46. Fools is a mild description. nt
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:29 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

meow2u3

(24,745 posts)
57. There's only one of three excuses not to vote
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:34 PM
Feb 2020

And that is if you're ineligible because you're too young, not a citizen, or have been convicted of a felony (in some states).

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

cannabis_flower

(3,764 posts)
99. One other
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:25 PM
Feb 2020

If you hadn't voted early and you are incapacitated - got sick (bad enough that you couldn't get up) or had a serious accidental, went into labor....

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cornell Engineer

(80 posts)
65. Fuhrer Drumpf is so bad...
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:46 PM
Feb 2020

that I'm pretty sure I'd vote for Charlie Manson if he were still alive and was the Dem nominee this year.

I'm also fairly certain that we could randomly pick an administration comprised of some of Charlie's former prison mates and end up with a cabinet less corrupt and more moral than the one we got now.

So if there's a God in Heaven there will be a Democrat in the White House this time next year and hopefully Biden/Bernie/Bloomberg/whoever will appoint a real Attorney General who will start putting all these anti-American assholes where they belong...in Charlie's former living quarters.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MyOwnPeace

(16,888 posts)
91. Oh, CRUD!!!!
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:12 PM
Feb 2020

Guess I'm not keeping up with things like I used to. Manson died?

I guess that leaves us with the usual Bugs Bunny, Mickey Mouse, Jill Stein write-ins now?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cornell Engineer

(80 posts)
105. No problem
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:39 PM
Feb 2020

One dead Manson is still better than one live Trump.

But if you don't wanna write-in a dead guy you could always vote for Manson's buddy Tex Watson who's still alive and eligible for parole next year.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Silver1

(721 posts)
66. Yes!
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:49 PM
Feb 2020

Yes in this election and every election!

Maybe the non voters should be sent to live in a dysfunctional third world country for a while so they see what it means to really live in a place where votes don't matter.

Yes, voting isn't just about what you want to happen, but also about what you don't want to happen.

I feel like this is another example of the sense of "entitlement" so many people seem to have these days. If things don't go their way, they dismiss whatever is going on around them. Usually with cynicism. Personally, I can't stand cynics.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

jayschool2013

(2,309 posts)
69. Imma caucus for Liz tonight
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:52 PM
Feb 2020

but I'll vote for the nominee with a "D" next to their name in November, even if it's Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont).

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

highplainsdem

(48,730 posts)
82. Good for you! And I hope Warren picks up some delegates in Iowa. The latest polling shows that
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:05 PM
Feb 2020

she should.



It should still be a four-way race coming out of Iowa.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Turin_C3PO

(13,650 posts)
73. Yes.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 03:59 PM
Feb 2020

Calling them “fools” is being too kind, IMO. Anyone who doesn’t vote Dem, I don’t care who the nominee is, is responsible for another Trump term.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

whathehell

(28,969 posts)
74. Absolutely agree -- Let's NOT have another 4 years of Trump!! n/t
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:00 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Magoo48

(4,659 posts)
75. We here at the vast Magoo48 compound wholeheartedly concur.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:02 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Still In Wisconsin

(4,450 posts)
81. My niece is a Berner and says if Bernie is not the nominee she won't vote.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:05 PM
Feb 2020

This is her FIRST election. I hope there aren't too many more like her, but I fear there are. Bernie Sanders seems to attract followers who are fiercely loyal to him (and that's fine) but don't care about anything or anyone else (that's NOT fine).

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
174. Please be kind and rational with her.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 07:45 PM
Feb 2020

Keep talking. That vote isn't lost until the polls close, if Bernie isn't the nominee.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ramen

(783 posts)
85. We sure as hell better be able to.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:07 PM
Feb 2020

I know I can and must.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

grumpyduck

(6,198 posts)
90. I'd vote for Mickey Mouse
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:12 PM
Feb 2020

if he were the Dem nominee.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Ingersollman

(204 posts)
92. Absolutely
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:12 PM
Feb 2020

Vote Blue No Matter Who.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

keithbvadu2

(36,369 posts)
93. Ideological purity is a lot of it. I would even vote for Sanders if it was him against Trump.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:13 PM
Feb 2020

Ideological purity is a lot of it. I would even vote for Sanders if it was him against Trump.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

PatrickforO

(14,516 posts)
102. Any Democrat who does not vote in this upcoming election is, I suggest:
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:33 PM
Feb 2020

- either a Democrat in name only, or

- utterly lazy and ignorant, or

- unable to vote due to suppression.

With the exception of #3, someone who is a Democrat and doesn't vote straight blue in November is awfully blind to what's going on and what is at stake.

I don't like the word 'fool,' though, but that's just me.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

cab67

(2,963 posts)
106. They're not just fools.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:43 PM
Feb 2020

They're selfish and arrogant. They're saying that their feelings are more important than the future of the country. They're saying that we're not all in this together, and that it's our fault they're acting in a way that could harm the whole world.

I have no patience for "you have to earn my vote" in the general election. One of two people will be elected. We can work toward the world we want while keeping grounded in the world that exists.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

QualTest

(84 posts)
107. BS Thread!
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:44 PM
Feb 2020

Everyone keeps wanting Bernie and his supporters to PLEDGE that they will support "Unity", and vote for whomever is
the D nominee. However, I don't see anyone asking the other candidates this same question. Actually, I see people like
HRC actually hedging, and saying they may not support Sanders if he were the nominee.

Can we please STOP this "unity" purity test? I does not seem like it's very fair and balanced!

When I hear Hillary, Perez, and all the DNC minions get on the MSM and in one voice say,
"YES, we will get behind Bernie, Warren, or anyone...." At the convention, no games, no BS!
Then we can go here.

As I've said before, I'm NOT a Bernie/Warren supporter at this point, but I'm really just looking that
everyone on the ballot gets an even shake. SO far it looks to me that this "unity" street is running 1 way.

My .02

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

MyOwnPeace

(16,888 posts)
124. Interesting perspective from someone new to posting..............
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 05:10 PM
Feb 2020

You may have been watching/following for some time, and you may be bringing a new and refreshing perspective, but I'd say I'm tending to question your position in the issue. Why do you question anyone asking about "sincerity" to the party?

I'm not locked into any candidate at this point, but I do understand the need for solidarity and dedication to the party and what it stand for and offers to all. That being said, I don't see any problem with questioning that commitment of solidarity and support from someone asking for it as the party nominee. Why should I spend my "support money" on someone who might jump ship and not be a loyal candidate/nominee?

I don't know.

Do you?

As for me, I'm gonna' vote blue, no matter who!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

QualTest

(84 posts)
127. Uh
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 05:31 PM
Feb 2020

My problem is that is seems that the question only seems to go toward the
"Left/Progressive" candidates & their supporters.

Why is this not universal? Not just here on DU, but in MSM, and everywhere?
I don't have an issue with the question, and I'm happy to support anyone not Trump, but...

It seems that many who are "Centrist/Establishment do have a problem.
We want party fealty from the left side of the party,
but we won't sign up for the reciprocal.

We like unity only if it's the "right" D, seems to be what I'm seeing.
As I said, I'm all about fairness, and that doesn't seem quite right to me.

My perception. Seems like a lot of insider stuff, and less concern about Drumpf!

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

elleng

(130,152 posts)
109. Can we agree NOT to call eachother FOOLS, please?
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:44 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

highplainsdem

(48,730 posts)
115. I'm not recommending calling them fools to their faces. But it's important not to enable their
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:53 PM
Feb 2020

foolish belief that not voting or voting third party is somehow more principled or smarter than voting for the nominee, in a crucial election.

If we let people think it's perfectly okay not to vote, or to vote third party, that makes it much more likely they'll do so next time.

So it's important to try to get them to defend their decision. It's important to lay out the arguments against it, rather than sympathizing and saying you're sorry they didn't get the nominee they wanted and the majority of the party chose someone else.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
175. Your OP is quite different from this post.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 07:48 PM
Feb 2020

I've argued, in context, somewhat against what came out of your OP, but this post of yours is better. I agree the behavior is foolish, but yeah, calling names and getting in peoples faces is NOT gonna fix it.

Anyway, thank you for your follow-up post.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MGKrebs

(8,138 posts)
112. Can DUers agree that those who publicly call other Dems fools
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:50 PM
Feb 2020

are idiots?

I hope not. Even if it's true we don't need to actually say it out loud like that. Not helpful.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Warpy

(110,910 posts)
113. I can't dismiss anyone in late teens or early 20s as fools
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:51 PM
Feb 2020

Young, naive and wrong, maybe, but not fools.

I save that for people who are old enough to know better.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

highplainsdem

(48,730 posts)
119. So don't use that word. But point out where they're wrong, where they're
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:59 PM
Feb 2020

making a mistake they're likely to regret later.

Don't let them think not voting is a smart decision, a principled decision, some kind of worthy protest, when that will just help Trump.

If they're young, they're already seeing lots of messages in social media about not voting if you don't get the one candidate you prefer. Some of those messages will probably be posted by Russian bots.

Offer some solid reasoning to counter that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

nini

(16,670 posts)
114. of course.. I'm not a child who will pitch a fit and pout
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:52 PM
Feb 2020

I might have to hold my nose but I'll do it.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
117. Yup, happy to agree with that.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 04:55 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Nitram

(22,671 posts)
121. I agree that they are not actually Democrats.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 05:02 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

in2herbs

(2,942 posts)
123. My right to choose is not limited to abortion issues. My right to choose encompasses any issue
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 05:05 PM
Feb 2020

important to me and because 8 or 9 million more people voted against Trump than voted for him I don't see the Ds future being as dark as some would like us to believe if voters exercise their choice. Ds have to fight to beat trump but we must not forget that trump has never been popular with those who vote.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

herding cats

(19,549 posts)
125. I definitely will. Ruth Bader Ginsburg deserves to retire in peace.
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 05:22 PM
Feb 2020

Not to mention the myriad of other reasons we must win in November.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Dem4Life1102

(3,974 posts)
128. Unfortunately
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 05:38 PM
Feb 2020

There are too many that won't vote or will vote third policy if their preferred candidate doesn't win. It's a "play by my rules or I'll take my ball and go home" mentality. I don't know how to combat that. There are still people that to this day will proudly declare that they refused to vote for Clinton in 16 because she was the lesser of 2 evils.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BlueWI

(1,736 posts)
133. What possible purpose does this question serve?
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 07:51 PM
Feb 2020

We need to stop scapegoating and win the damn election.

Period.

And respecting differences and winning voters over is a better strategy than slandering voters with a broad brush.

In fact, a better question would be: what policy positions among Democrats would broaden our appeal if they were emphasized in advertising and communication?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

highplainsdem

(48,730 posts)
134. You are NEVER going to get policy positions that all Dems agree on. And that's why I posted
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 07:57 PM
Feb 2020

this OP.

We have what is essentially a two-party system. The only way to achieve any real power is to work within one party of that system.

And that, because of the size of the party, inevitably means a lot of people will simply not be thrilled with the nominee, or the party platform.

Vote blue, no matter who, anyway.

And then work on the policy differences.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BlueWI

(1,736 posts)
135. My post mentioned advertising and communication,
Mon Feb 3, 2020, 10:56 PM
Feb 2020

which we routinely fail on doing successfully in national elections. And you didn't mention advertising or communication in your response. Generally, Democratic positions poll better than Republican positions do, but we lose our fair share of elections in part because we don't emphasize advertising and communication strategies enough. There are definitely policy positions that have broad agreement among Democrats. Why isn't more of our individual and collective work, as a party, focused on communication strategy?

It's obvious that the vast majority of Democrats vote blue, and liberals are the most reliable voting block (as opposed to moderates and conservatives, or the white majority, for that matter, who make Republicans win way more frequently than "Bernie Bros.&quot . This OP doesn't call out the primary scapegoats that exit polling identifies. So what's the point?

We need to do the hard work of building up the Democratic brand based on common values, or we lose in 2020. There are always outlying third parties, Ross Perot, John Anderson, Gary Johnson, they draw from both parties. A much bigger problem is the the to craft a national message that resonates as widely as possible.

"I'm with her" wasn't that message. Neither was "a better deal." There's work to do on that, and time is short.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
151. +1
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:25 AM
Feb 2020

This is the way.

Browbeating fence-sitters and undecideds, and people maybe interested in third parties, is NOT going to bring them to your preferred candidate. Never has, never will.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

BlueWI

(1,736 posts)
164. I hear you.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 04:37 PM
Feb 2020

Most independent or third party voters have a preferred major party too. Votes for our side will happen with a good message.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

The Revolution

(763 posts)
138. The funny thing is
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 01:17 AM
Feb 2020

I think there is a sort of an attitude of "that will show them" among some that are more to the left. Meaning, that will vote 3rd party if their preferred candidate doesn't get the nomination, thereby encouraging the party to nominate someone further left.

The funny thing is, what this really does is probably push the party further right, as the voters on the left are not supporting it, and it seeks out voters that will be more reliable.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
152. Those people exist on the right as well.
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 11:27 AM
Feb 2020

And your last paragraph, pointing that out to those voters, is at least a better strategy than telling them the upthread 'your vote for stein is a vote for trump' nonsense.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
176. Yep. No doubt. n/t
Tue Feb 4, 2020, 07:50 PM
Feb 2020

-Laelth

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»Democratic Primaries»Can DUers at least agree ...