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ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 10:41 AM Feb 2020

Experts Call BS on Bernie's Russian Bot Theory

Last edited Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:24 AM - Edit history (1)

The Daily Beast reached out to experts in tracking disinformation to see if there was any evidence of Russian involvement in the feud between Sanders supporters and the Nevada Culinary Workers Union. None could point to a specific example of Russia-linked personas imitating pro-Bernie personas and attacking members of the Nevada Culinary Workers Union.

Ben Nimmo, director of investigations at the disinformation-tracking firm Graphika, told The Daily Beast that, after 2016, Russian trolls have tried harder to stay undetected, making finding them a tricky process.

“Actually proving that a particular account is run from Russia means crossing a high evidence bar. There are far more accusations of ‘Russian trolls’ or ‘Russian bots’ going around than there are actual known Russian assets that have been taken down.”

Oftentimes, Russian covert operations on social media act as echo chambers for the issues and priorities of overt Russian propaganda outlets like Sputnik and RT. Jessica Brandt, director of research at the Alliance for Securing Democracy, which tracks Russian state news trends and disinformation, said Russian outlets haven’t made much of the Nevada union feud.

“We’ve seen no evidence of that,” she told The Daily Beast, adding that the Alliance’s dashboard for tracking overt Russian propaganda turned up only one story on the Nevada issue.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/experts-call-bs-on-bernies-russian-bot-theory
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
33 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Experts Call BS on Bernie's Russian Bot Theory (Original Post) ehrnst Feb 2020 OP
False flag bucolic_frolic Feb 2020 #1
It's a handy way to avoid taking any responsibility for something that is embarrassing ehrnst Feb 2020 #2
+100 bucolic_frolic Feb 2020 #3
Too convenient by far Cha Feb 2020 #9
+1000 UniteFightBack Feb 2020 #15
Russia wants Trump to win, and is intervening. Trump tried to stop the intellegence agencies Fran2020 Feb 2020 #4
So you're saying that the experts quoted in the OP are wrong, and it is Russians disguised ehrnst Feb 2020 #5
Nobody knows. The Russians and Putin's IRA are pros. Fran2020 Feb 2020 #8
+1 Meadowoak Feb 2020 #10
"Nobody knows" Actually, yes, we can do research, and can reach conclusions, as the experts did. ehrnst Feb 2020 #11
We won't REALLY know until our intelligence agencies go up against theirs! Fran2020 Feb 2020 #18
Did you read the OP? Here is what you REALLY seem to have missed: ehrnst Feb 2020 #21
Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign ehrnst Feb 2020 #31
And who do you think Russia wants dump to run against? Which candidate do you think? nt UniteFightBack Feb 2020 #16
Why would Russian Bots try to make Sanders supporters, and by extension Sanders ehrnst Feb 2020 #19
These tactics work. And look bad...he is denying that it's even happening. nt UniteFightBack Feb 2020 #20
Yep, makes no sense that Russia would be trying to embarrass Sanders ehrnst Feb 2020 #22
Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign ehrnst Feb 2020 #32
National Security briefing to Congress state's Russia intends to interfere w/Dem primaries Fiendish Thingy Feb 2020 #6
There is no evidence that the harassers of the Union were Russian Bots. ehrnst Feb 2020 #7
We don't know either way. Meadowoak Feb 2020 #12
No, we have research that found no evidence that Russian Bots were ehrnst Feb 2020 #14
WaPo: Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign ehrnst Feb 2020 #29
And there is no evidence they aren't Russian operatives Fiendish Thingy Feb 2020 #13
"Proving a negative" fallacy. There is research that shows that Russians bots were not ehrnst Feb 2020 #17
The experts just briefed Congress on Russia's interference. Fiendish Thingy Feb 2020 #23
Sanders *said* that his supporters are not harassing the union, Russia is, with no evidence. ehrnst Feb 2020 #24
He has disavowed any supporters who would engage in harassment- what more do you want? Fiendish Thingy Feb 2020 #25
Denying that his supporters "would" harass the union is the issue. ehrnst Feb 2020 #27
Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign ehrnst Feb 2020 #30
I'd have a lot more respect for Bernie.... Happy Hoosier Feb 2020 #26
sanders' vetted delegates at the National Convention were not Bots Gothmog Feb 2020 #28
K&R betsuni Feb 2020 #33
 

bucolic_frolic

(42,681 posts)
1. False flag
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 10:46 AM
Feb 2020

They need to look elsewhere, such as polls. There are far too many of them, too many newbies, methodology not overly transparent. Polls can influence public opinion by biased questions or methods, then voters see results and the bandwagon effect is in gear. But I suspect the culinary union issue is a distraction from activity elsewhere.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
2. It's a handy way to avoid taking any responsibility for something that is embarrassing
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 10:49 AM
Feb 2020

that perhaps also supports one's own goals.

Especially since his supporters have a history of harassing his opponents...

Bernie Sanders Politely Asks Supporters Not to Harass His Opponents

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cha

(295,929 posts)
9. Too convenient by far
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:03 AM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Fran2020

(40 posts)
4. Russia wants Trump to win, and is intervening. Trump tried to stop the intellegence agencies
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 10:55 AM
Feb 2020

from briefing the house. Russia will to anything to re-elect Trump, and Trump will help them. We need to be on guard!

Russia is trying to get the Democrats to fight with each other and Russia is trying to make Democrats look bad.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
5. So you're saying that the experts quoted in the OP are wrong, and it is Russians disguised
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 10:57 AM
Feb 2020

as Sanders supporters, and not actually Sanders supporters who are doing the online harassing?

Daily Beast isn't the only who investigated these claims:

"We have seen no evidence in open sources during this election cycle that an online community of Sanders supporters, known as Bernie bros, were catalyzed by what Sanders suggested could be ‘Russian interference,’ " said Graham Brookie, director of the Digital Forensic Research Lab at the Atlantic Council, which tracks disinformation on social media sites.


https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=550400

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Fran2020

(40 posts)
8. Nobody knows. The Russians and Putin's IRA are pros.
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:03 AM
Feb 2020

Under Trump, they're just letting Russia run rampant and not investigating or trying to stop them. So we don't know if Russia is responsible for any of these things. After we win in 2020 we need a REAL in-depth investigation into the FULL extent of Russian interference, with CONSEQUENCES for any Americans who helped them. Mueller is a Republican, and Trump obstructed the investigation totally. What Mueller found was just the start.

We need real answers and real accountability.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
11. "Nobody knows" Actually, yes, we can do research, and can reach conclusions, as the experts did.
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:08 AM
Feb 2020

We had evidence of Russian bots on FB and Twitter during the General who were pushing for Sanders. That evidence is not there for the harassment of the Union.

Tell me, what other candidate felt a need to tell their supporters not to harass his opponents during this campaign?

Bernie Sanders Politely Asks Supporters Not to Harass His Opponents




If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Fran2020

(40 posts)
18. We won't REALLY know until our intelligence agencies go up against theirs!
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:24 AM
Feb 2020

Twitter said they couldn't determine, private companies and experts can investigate, but they are up against a CRIMINAL organization that is backed by a NATION Russia. This is Russia's version of the NSA.

We won't have real answers until OUR intelligence services, NSA, CIA, FBI, all fight back. DRUMPH is stopping that because he knows he can't win without Russian help.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/us/politics/russian-interference-trump-democrats.html

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
21. Did you read the OP? Here is what you REALLY seem to have missed:
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:33 AM
Feb 2020
Jessica Brandt, director of research at the Alliance for Securing Democracy, which tracks Russian state news trends and disinformation, said Russian outlets haven’t made much of the Nevada union feud.

“We’ve seen no evidence of that,” she told The Daily Beast, adding that the Alliance’s dashboard for tracking overt Russian propaganda turned up only one story on the Nevada issue.


IF Russia thought that the CU's criticism of Sanders would help Trump, they would have been PUSHING the story... But they are not.

From the article linked from the OP:

There is evidence, however, that Sanders supporters’ penchant for attacking other Democrats, outside the recent feud over the Nevada caucuses, is driven primarily by authentic American actors and not foreign state trolls. #NeverWarren and #MayorCheat are among the most popular hashtags used by Sanders supporters on Twitter to go after his Democratic rivals—the latter a reference to the unsupported claim that former Mayor Pete Buttigieg “stole” the Iowa Caucuses.


And why would Russia try to tank Sanders's campaign by making his supporters look bad, and by extension, Sanders, so much that Sanders is trying to say it's not his supporters?

As has been shown, the GOP wants Sanders as the Democratic Nominee, because they believe Trump can beat him, so Russian efforts to smear Sanders would be contrary to the GOP's goals in re-electing Trump...

There is FAR more evidence that points to Sanders supporters being behind the harassment.

Bernie Sanders Politely Asks Supporters Not to Harass His Opponents






If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
31. Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 06:00 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

UniteFightBack

(8,231 posts)
16. And who do you think Russia wants dump to run against? Which candidate do you think? nt
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:13 AM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
19. Why would Russian Bots try to make Sanders supporters, and by extension Sanders
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:27 AM
Feb 2020

look bad, as this harassment does - so much that he's trying to claim that it's not his supporters?

It's been shown that he's the number one choice of the GOP as an opponent to Trump, so it makes no sense that Russia would be trying to tank Sanders, because it would run counter to the GOP efforts to re-elect Trump.


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

UniteFightBack

(8,231 posts)
20. These tactics work. And look bad...he is denying that it's even happening. nt
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:30 AM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
22. Yep, makes no sense that Russia would be trying to embarrass Sanders
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:35 AM
Feb 2020

since Sanders is the one that they think Trump can beat, and the intelligence report says that Russia wants Trump re-elected.

If Russia thought that the CU's criticism of Sanders would help Trump, then they would be pushing it.

But they are pretty much silent on it in the usual propaganda channels.

There is far, far more evidence that this is the work of Sanders supporters doing what they have before...which Sanders even had to admit it's happened before.

Bernie Sanders Politely Asks Supporters Not to Harass His Opponents


If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
32. Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 06:07 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Fiendish Thingy

(15,373 posts)
6. National Security briefing to Congress state's Russia intends to interfere w/Dem primaries
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 10:59 AM
Feb 2020

As well as general election in November.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
7. There is no evidence that the harassers of the Union were Russian Bots.
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:02 AM
Feb 2020

See the OP.

There are Sanders supporters doing this, and Bernie is trying to avoid saying so, even though he was the only candidate who had to tell his supporters to "be respectful" at the beginning of the 2020 campaign...

Bernie Sanders Politely Asks Supporters Not to Harass His Opponents

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Meadowoak

(5,517 posts)
12. We don't know either way.
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:08 AM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
14. No, we have research that found no evidence that Russian Bots were
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:12 AM
Feb 2020

behind the Union harassment.

Until there is evidence, it's just an accusation, and appears to serve the purpose of allowing Sanders to defend his supporters.

As for evidence that goes to showing that it was his supporters, what other candidate felt a need to tell their supporters not to harass his opponents during this campaign?

Bernie Sanders Politely Asks Supporters Not to Harass His Opponents



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
29. WaPo: Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 05:59 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Fiendish Thingy

(15,373 posts)
13. And there is no evidence they aren't Russian operatives
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:10 AM
Feb 2020

Unless these harassers get doxed, we’ll never know for sure.

The Russians want the same kind of discord among Dems as in 2016, and having Sanders supporters harass others in one way to get it.

We don’t live in a black and white world, and need to consider and prepare for all possibilities.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
17. "Proving a negative" fallacy. There is research that shows that Russians bots were not
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 11:14 AM
Feb 2020

among the harassers of the Union. There are ways to determine where emails tweets and FB page posts are originating from, and that's how we know they were behind much information concerning HRC on Sanders FB pages.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-social-media-russian-infiltration-campaign/165333/

https://www.vox.com/2018/2/16/17021048/robert-mueller-russia-facebook-social-media-donald-trump-presidential-campaign-2016-hillary-clinton

There is however evidence that points to Sanders supporters having a tendency to harass...

Again...

Bernie Sanders Politely Asks Supporters Not to Harass His Opponents

We don’t live in a black and white world, and need to consider and prepare for all possibilities.


You would not know that listening to Senator Sanders, or many of his supporters, except when evidence doesn't back up what he pronounces to be true.

I'll listen to the experts over the politician who has much to lose by agreeing with them.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Fiendish Thingy

(15,373 posts)
23. The experts just briefed Congress on Russia's interference.
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 12:37 PM
Feb 2020

Harassing Bernie supporters, if proven, should be held accountable. In this day and age, it shouldn’t be too difficult to dox a harasser, if an “expert” wanted to.

“Bots” are automated programs, not real people; Russia used scores, if not hundreds, of paid operatives, real people, in addition to “bots”, to sow discord and spread disinformation in 2016, and they’re doing it again right now.

This cycle, voters must be alert to efforts to manipulate their emotions with convincing incidents instigated by real people, not “bots”.

I’m going to focus on what the actual candidates do and say.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
24. Sanders *said* that his supporters are not harassing the union, Russia is, with no evidence.
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 12:40 PM
Feb 2020

So yes, this is about a politician denied, and how factual or informed it is.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Fiendish Thingy

(15,373 posts)
25. He has disavowed any supporters who would engage in harassment- what more do you want?
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 12:54 PM
Feb 2020

Whose interests are served by becoming immersed in these offensive acts?

Anyone making threats should be prosecuted wherever possible- if the Meuller team could identify the individuals working for IRA and Cambridge Analytica, I’m sure there are law enforcement agencies that could do the same for the union harassers.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
27. Denying that his supporters "would" harass the union is the issue.
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 01:09 PM
Feb 2020
Whose interests are served by becoming immersed in these offensive acts?


You stated that they should be investigated....

"There are people out there who want to divide the progressive movement. I am the strongest, perhaps, lifetime supporter of unions in the United States Congress," Sanders said at a CNN presidential town hall. "The idea that anybody who works with me would make a vicious attack against a union leader just because we disagree on an issue is incomprehensible to me and you know what? I'm just not sure that that's true."

Interesting that he misrepresents what the union spox said, .. which was that his supporters were harassing them, but Sanders seems to be saying that his staff are the ones that the union spox was talking about...

https://www.culinaryunion226.org/news/press/statement-by-geoconda-arguello-kline-2020-02-12

Why do you think that he resorted to attacking a straw man in order to make a strong denial? Covering for a later revelation that it was his supporters, so his supporters could say, "well he said it was inconceivable that someone who "worked" for the campaign did this, not his supporters?"


Anyone making threats should be prosecuted wherever possible- if the Meuller team could identify the individuals working for IRA and Cambridge Analytica, I’m sure there are law enforcement agencies that could do the same for the union harassers.


There is no Mueller investigation or any investigation with the resources that Mueller had into the harassment of the union for criticizing his health care proposal.






If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
30. Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 06:00 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Happy Hoosier

(7,083 posts)
26. I'd have a lot more respect for Bernie....
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 12:58 PM
Feb 2020

... if he would own this issue and address it directly.

But I suspect he secretly LOVES the Bros. They tap into his deep seated anger (much of it righteous) and his ever-hungry ego.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
28. sanders' vetted delegates at the National Convention were not Bots
Fri Feb 21, 2020, 04:27 PM
Feb 2020

Normally going to a national convention is a once in a life time experience. I have worked really hard inside the party on campaigns and voter protection issues for a very long time to earn this trip. Too bad that sanders and his vetted delegates ruined that experience and did their best to help trump. A candidate has absolute approval rights over their pledged delegates because these delegates can change their votes and these delegates represent the candidate and campaign. I helped vet Clinton delegates and I know that I was vetted. The Clinton campaign told us that we represent her and that our actions would reflect on her and her campaign.

In contrast, sanders sent one very weak text the Sunday night before the convention and then did little or nothing to control his delegates. It was nasty I was there when the sanders delegates booed Congressman John Lewis. I was warned about this stunt 30 minutes before it happened by the Clinton campaign whip. According to my whip, sanders was asked to stop this event and declined. That incident will be used against sanders by Russia to suppress the African American vote just as was done in 2016



Russia will just run material showing sanders delegates booing John Lewis, Elijah Cummings and others to suppress the vote of African American voters and I feel that this tactic would be very effective

I was at the Texas delegation breakfast when a group of sanders delegates marched in and demanded that we condemn Clinton and change our votes to sanders.



sanders spoke to the Texas delegation the next morning and his speech was again solely about himself. There was a mini-riot due to his delegates the prior morning and the only thing that sanders talked about was himself. sanders did nothing to deal with the fact that his delegates were out of control and did nothing to try to help Hillary Clinton win the general election.

Finally a group of sanders delegates yelled at my daughter and called her the c-Word because she would not try to get me to change my vote. Again sanders was asked to tell his delegates to behave during the convention and sanders refused
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
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