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Avlon: Bernie Sanders' praise of Castro is problematic (Original Post) William769 Feb 2020 OP
I guess Nelson Mandela needed a good backlash, too? Newest Reality Feb 2020 #1
Excellent whataboutism. HarlanPepper Feb 2020 #3
Okay, fair enough. Newest Reality Feb 2020 #5
Nelson Mandela is not running in our election. William769 Feb 2020 #4
You don't have to buy it... Newest Reality Feb 2020 #6
Problematic for Obama? Or only Sanders who seems to be a problem? Nanjeanne Feb 2020 #2
No, Bernie Sanders' Discussion of Cuba's Castro is Nothing Like Obama's Gothmog Feb 2020 #12
you can always count on @JoeBiden to defend @BarackObama 's record and legacy. Gothmog Feb 2020 #13
not... myohmy2 Feb 2020 #7
Florida Democratic Party disavows Sanders. Gothmog Feb 2020 #8
As well they should. Good for them. NurseJackie Feb 2020 #10
... Scurrilous Feb 2020 #9
I don't have cable but I read a lot and I have never heard of him ChubbyStar Feb 2020 #11
President Obama's comments are nothing like sanders' comments Gothmog Feb 2020 #14
No they are not.. who was trying to push that, anyway.. Cha Feb 2020 #15
This makes me smile Gothmog Mar 2020 #16
We were very kind to Hillary, we will do the same for Joe. William769 Mar 2020 #17
 

Newest Reality

(12,712 posts)
1. I guess Nelson Mandela needed a good backlash, too?
Mon Feb 24, 2020, 04:34 PM
Feb 2020

(this is an excerpt from an email from Noam Chomsky and you can fact check the information if you like)

We should keep in mind the history between the US and Cuba and the amount of propaganda and information that did not become so mainstream during the impositions we were placing on them.

Well, what Castro’s actual goals were, we don’t actually know. He was sharply constrained from the first moment, by a harsh and cruel attack from the reigning superpower.

There were achievements, like health, literacy, and so on. The internationalism was incredible. There is a reason why Nelson Mandela went to Cuba to praise Castro and thank the Cuban people almost as soon as he got out of jail. That’s a Third World reaction, and they understand it.

Cuba played an enormous role in the liberation of Africa and the overthrow of apartheid — sending doctors and teachers to the poorest places in the world, to Haiti, Pakistan after the earthquake, almost everywhere. The internationalism is just astonishing. I don’t think there has been anything like it in history.

The health achievements were astonishing. Health statistics in Cuba were about like the United States, and take a look at the differences in wealth and power.

On the other hand, there was a harsh dictatorship. So there was both.


Her is an article about Nelson Mandela's Views:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nelson-mandela-castro_n_4400212
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

HarlanPepper

(2,042 posts)
3. Excellent whataboutism.
Mon Feb 24, 2020, 04:42 PM
Feb 2020

Very poor comparison, though. Nelson Mandella was oppressed by a white government. Castro was an oppressor.

Better luck next time.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Newest Reality

(12,712 posts)
5. Okay, fair enough.
Mon Feb 24, 2020, 04:48 PM
Feb 2020

How much do you know about Cuba and the role United States policy played there, because your response seems to indicate that you may not be aware of it, unless you are merely referring to what the media conveyed during the Cuban Missal Crisis.

And, to qualify my statement and prevent your reading something into that, I am not at all making any case for Castro's oppression, etc. You would really have to stretch things in order to whitewash it to make a point.

Why would a person who was oppressed by a white government show any regard for an oppressor? What are your criteria? You are also conflating many things there, countries, leaders and race.

Better information next time.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

William769

(55,124 posts)
4. Nelson Mandela is not running in our election.
Mon Feb 24, 2020, 04:42 PM
Feb 2020

I spent my career working in Miami. I personally knew many families destroyed by Castro.

I ain't buying the rotten fish you are trying to sell.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Newest Reality

(12,712 posts)
6. You don't have to buy it...
Mon Feb 24, 2020, 04:49 PM
Feb 2020

Look into it. Again, you don't also have to assume that I am exonerating Castro, I think that's pushing it a bit.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Nanjeanne

(4,878 posts)
2. Problematic for Obama? Or only Sanders who seems to be a problem?
Mon Feb 24, 2020, 04:42 PM
Feb 2020



Bernie Sanders has a 100 percent rating from the American Civil Liberties Union. His support for individual political rights is so unwavering he has called for the enfranchisement of all of America’s incarcerated citizens. His belief in freedom of expression is so unyielding he has scolded progressive college students for shutting down the speeches of far-right speakers. “To me, it’s a sign of intellectual weakness,” the Vermont senator said in 2017. “If you can’t ask Ann Coulter, in a polite way, questions which expose the weakness of her arguments, if all you can do is boo or shut her down or prevent her from coming, what does that tell the world?”


Bernie Sanders: We’re very opposed to the authoritarian nature of Cuba, but, you know, it’s unfair to simply say everything is bad, you know? When Fidel Castro came into office, you know what he did? He had a massive literacy program. Is that a bad thing? Even though Fidel Castro did it?

Anderson Cooper: A lot of p— dissidents imprisoned in, in Cuba.

Bernie Sanders: That’s right. And we condemn that. Unlike Donald Trump. Let’s be clear, you want to — I do not think that Kim Jong-un is a good friend. I don’t trade love letters with a murdering dictator. Vladimir Putin, not a great friend of mine.


One can reasonably critique Sanders’s remarks in political terms. Given the Cuban-American vote in Florida — and/or the devout anti-communist boomer bloc across the nation — the senator might have been wise to put more emphasis on his condemnation of the Cuban government’s authoritarianism and less on the unfairness of how the regime’s legitimate achievements have been elided.

But as a substantive matter, the notion that Sanders’s acknowledgement of the Castro regime’s accomplishments betrays his secret sympathy for authoritarian communism is absurd. It is a fact that Cuba has one of the highest-performing education systems in Latin America, while its medical system has enabled its people to enjoy life expectancy and infant mortality rates similar to those of U.S. residents despite the island’s relative poverty. Meanwhile, with regard to Sanders’s remarks from the 1980s, the claim that Castro’s early social programs mitigated popular opposition to his government is endorsed by many historians of the region.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
12. No, Bernie Sanders' Discussion of Cuba's Castro is Nothing Like Obama's
Tue Feb 25, 2020, 05:04 PM
Feb 2020



Eric Levitz in New York Magazine on Monday makes the case that Bernie Sanders’ 1985 interview admiring some aspects of Fidel Castro’s regime in Cuba was roughly the same as Barack Obama’s 2016 discussion of Castro. This is in large part just an amplification of ideas flying around Twitter this week, as in the tweet pictured above. A quick look at Sanders’ and Obama’s statements shows why this analysis is entirely incorrect.

In 2016, Obama was addressing hundreds of young business and social entrepreneurs from across Latin America in Buenos Aires, Argentina. If you read the transcript of his talk, you see immediately that Obama, in his signature style, was reinforcing the message of pragmatism and evidence-based decision making — as he puts it “be[ing] practical and just choos[ing] from what works.” He was in fact arguing against ideology, at a time when he must have been watching the destabilizing effects the surge in ideological politics was causing not just in the United States but in other countries long considered staid and practical.

In discussing Cuba, Obama relayed direct conversations he had with the Castros, insight into the diplomacy of highlighting policy areas where there might be more agreement in order to create common ground with space to push for change in other areas. I doubt many would think it rational to approach a nascent foreign relationship with a guns blazing, take no prisoners attitude, especially when any agreement depended on the other country’s support. Obama was relaying one relatively high stakes conversation with foreign leaders to another unaligned audience in a foreign venue. I expect it does not take an expert in international relations to see the U.S. interest in pitching this information a certain way for both of these audiences.

In contrast, Bernie Sanders’ 1985 interview was not conducted for foreign consumption or to support U.S. national interests, and it did not come at a time of opening up in the U.S.-Cuba relationship. Instead, it was given for a local public access TV show. It was effectively a vanity project giving Sanders a platform to expound his views of politics and the world. Because of this, the messaging here is all Sanders. Further contrasting Obama, it was rooted in ideology, with Sanders opening, “As a socialist, the word socialism doesn’t frighten me,” before launching into his discussion of self-described socialist regimes. While you could argue the interview might not be a perfect snapshot of today’s presidential candidate’s innermost thoughts, it was a clear statement of what Sanders believed at the time and unfiltered by the degree of drafting and review Obama’s messaging on this topic would have undergone....

From this brief look, we can see that Obama’s talk involved a little flattery, a little spin, and a good deal of appealing to an audience that he saw as future leaders. In contrast, Sanders’ words were simply praise without an intentional objective towards a defined audience. Conflating these two discussions is flimsy, misleading, and indicative of the pro-regime propaganda captured in Sanders’ own sentiment.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
13. you can always count on @JoeBiden to defend @BarackObama 's record and legacy.
Wed Feb 26, 2020, 12:02 AM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

myohmy2

(3,118 posts)
7. not...
Mon Feb 24, 2020, 05:07 PM
Feb 2020

...problematic at all...

...when someone does good, you give them credit...

...when someone does bad, you condemn them...

...even a broken clock is right twice a day...

...what's strange about being in Moscow at the end of the Cold War?

...over the years, millions of Westerners traveled to Russia for various reasons none the least of which was commerce and business...

...THERE IS NO PROBLEM unless you're a right-wing reactionary...

...the People already know all this and have discounted it as mainly right-wing trumpian propaganda...

...Bernie will continue to get votes and his popularity will continue to grow even larger...why?

...because the People know, what is Bernie is offering are policies and programs that most of the world has adopted and implemented and considers normal and acceptable...

...policies and programs 90% of all Americans want and need...

...don't be fooled, BERNIE can and will do it...

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
8. Florida Democratic Party disavows Sanders.
Mon Feb 24, 2020, 06:04 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
10. As well they should. Good for them.
Mon Feb 24, 2020, 07:28 PM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ChubbyStar

(3,191 posts)
11. I don't have cable but I read a lot and I have never heard of him
Mon Feb 24, 2020, 07:28 PM
Feb 2020

Who is Avlon? Why should I care? Thanks.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

Gothmog

(144,005 posts)
14. President Obama's comments are nothing like sanders' comments
Wed Feb 26, 2020, 12:03 AM
Feb 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Cha

(295,928 posts)
15. No they are not.. who was trying to push that, anyway..
Wed Feb 26, 2020, 12:06 AM
Feb 2020
BS was talking about what he thinks Castro's revolution brought to Cuba in 1959.

President Obama was talking about the post 2014 strides that Cuba had made as part of the negotiated
pre-conditions for normalizing US-Cuba relations. Cuba had to meet benchmarks during the gradual process of moving towards normalization.


President Obama made the remarks at a joint press conference in Cuba in March 2016.

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/1287576570




Mahalo for the additional tweet, Goth!
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

William769

(55,124 posts)
17. We were very kind to Hillary, we will do the same for Joe.
Thu Mar 5, 2020, 01:39 PM
Mar 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
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