Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumAvlon: Bernie Sanders' praise of Castro is problematic
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/02/24/bernie-sanders-political-views-problematic-reality-check-john-avlon-newday-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)(this is an excerpt from an email from Noam Chomsky and you can fact check the information if you like)
We should keep in mind the history between the US and Cuba and the amount of propaganda and information that did not become so mainstream during the impositions we were placing on them.
Well, what Castros actual goals were, we dont actually know. He was sharply constrained from the first moment, by a harsh and cruel attack from the reigning superpower.
There were achievements, like health, literacy, and so on. The internationalism was incredible. There is a reason why Nelson Mandela went to Cuba to praise Castro and thank the Cuban people almost as soon as he got out of jail. Thats a Third World reaction, and they understand it.
Cuba played an enormous role in the liberation of Africa and the overthrow of apartheid sending doctors and teachers to the poorest places in the world, to Haiti, Pakistan after the earthquake, almost everywhere. The internationalism is just astonishing. I dont think there has been anything like it in history.
The health achievements were astonishing. Health statistics in Cuba were about like the United States, and take a look at the differences in wealth and power.
On the other hand, there was a harsh dictatorship. So there was both.
Her is an article about Nelson Mandela's Views:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nelson-mandela-castro_n_4400212
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
HarlanPepper
(2,042 posts)Very poor comparison, though. Nelson Mandella was oppressed by a white government. Castro was an oppressor.
Better luck next time.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)How much do you know about Cuba and the role United States policy played there, because your response seems to indicate that you may not be aware of it, unless you are merely referring to what the media conveyed during the Cuban Missal Crisis.
And, to qualify my statement and prevent your reading something into that, I am not at all making any case for Castro's oppression, etc. You would really have to stretch things in order to whitewash it to make a point.
Why would a person who was oppressed by a white government show any regard for an oppressor? What are your criteria? You are also conflating many things there, countries, leaders and race.
Better information next time.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
William769
(55,124 posts)I spent my career working in Miami. I personally knew many families destroyed by Castro.
I ain't buying the rotten fish you are trying to sell.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Newest Reality
(12,712 posts)Look into it. Again, you don't also have to assume that I am exonerating Castro, I think that's pushing it a bit.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Nanjeanne
(4,878 posts)Link to tweet
Anderson Cooper: A lot of p dissidents imprisoned in, in Cuba.
Bernie Sanders: Thats right. And we condemn that. Unlike Donald Trump. Lets be clear, you want to I do not think that Kim Jong-un is a good friend. I dont trade love letters with a murdering dictator. Vladimir Putin, not a great friend of mine.
But as a substantive matter, the notion that Sanderss acknowledgement of the Castro regimes accomplishments betrays his secret sympathy for authoritarian communism is absurd. It is a fact that Cuba has one of the highest-performing education systems in Latin America, while its medical system has enabled its people to enjoy life expectancy and infant mortality rates similar to those of U.S. residents despite the islands relative poverty. Meanwhile, with regard to Sanderss remarks from the 1980s, the claim that Castros early social programs mitigated popular opposition to his government is endorsed by many historians of the region.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
In 2016, Obama was addressing hundreds of young business and social entrepreneurs from across Latin America in Buenos Aires, Argentina. If you read the transcript of his talk, you see immediately that Obama, in his signature style, was reinforcing the message of pragmatism and evidence-based decision making as he puts it be[ing] practical and just choos[ing] from what works. He was in fact arguing against ideology, at a time when he must have been watching the destabilizing effects the surge in ideological politics was causing not just in the United States but in other countries long considered staid and practical.
In discussing Cuba, Obama relayed direct conversations he had with the Castros, insight into the diplomacy of highlighting policy areas where there might be more agreement in order to create common ground with space to push for change in other areas. I doubt many would think it rational to approach a nascent foreign relationship with a guns blazing, take no prisoners attitude, especially when any agreement depended on the other countrys support. Obama was relaying one relatively high stakes conversation with foreign leaders to another unaligned audience in a foreign venue. I expect it does not take an expert in international relations to see the U.S. interest in pitching this information a certain way for both of these audiences.
In contrast, Bernie Sanders 1985 interview was not conducted for foreign consumption or to support U.S. national interests, and it did not come at a time of opening up in the U.S.-Cuba relationship. Instead, it was given for a local public access TV show. It was effectively a vanity project giving Sanders a platform to expound his views of politics and the world. Because of this, the messaging here is all Sanders. Further contrasting Obama, it was rooted in ideology, with Sanders opening, As a socialist, the word socialism doesnt frighten me, before launching into his discussion of self-described socialist regimes. While you could argue the interview might not be a perfect snapshot of todays presidential candidates innermost thoughts, it was a clear statement of what Sanders believed at the time and unfiltered by the degree of drafting and review Obamas messaging on this topic would have undergone....
From this brief look, we can see that Obamas talk involved a little flattery, a little spin, and a good deal of appealing to an audience that he saw as future leaders. In contrast, Sanders words were simply praise without an intentional objective towards a defined audience. Conflating these two discussions is flimsy, misleading, and indicative of the pro-regime propaganda captured in Sanders own sentiment.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
myohmy2
(3,118 posts)...problematic at all...
...when someone does good, you give them credit...
...when someone does bad, you condemn them...
...even a broken clock is right twice a day...
...what's strange about being in Moscow at the end of the Cold War?
...over the years, millions of Westerners traveled to Russia for various reasons none the least of which was commerce and business...
...THERE IS NO PROBLEM unless you're a right-wing reactionary...
...the People already know all this and have discounted it as mainly right-wing trumpian propaganda...
...Bernie will continue to get votes and his popularity will continue to grow even larger...why?
...because the People know, what is Bernie is offering are policies and programs that most of the world has adopted and implemented and considers normal and acceptable...
...policies and programs 90% of all Americans want and need...
...don't be fooled, BERNIE can and will do it...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)Who is Avlon? Why should I care? Thanks.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(295,928 posts)President Obama was talking about the post 2014 strides that Cuba had made as part of the negotiated
pre-conditions for normalizing US-Cuba relations. Cuba had to meet benchmarks during the gradual process of moving towards normalization.
President Obama made the remarks at a joint press conference in Cuba in March 2016.
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/1287576570
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Mahalo for the additional tweet, Goth!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)Link to tweet
?s=20
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
William769
(55,124 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden