Waiting For Everyman
Waiting For Everyman's JournalRe both language and DU: We have to destroy this village to save it.
(Paraphrase of a quote reported by Peter Arnett about the destruction of Ben Tre village... my metaphor for the Word Wars being conducted on DU.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Arnett
One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small,
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all.
Go ask Alice
When she's ten feet tall
And if you go chasing rabbits
And you know you're going to fall,
Tell 'em a hookah-smoking caterpillar
Has given you the call
Call Alice
When she was just small
When the men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving low
Go ask Alice
I think she'll know
When logic and proportion
Have fallen sloppy dead
And the White Knight is talking backwards
And the Red Queen's "off with her head!"
Remember what the Dormouse said:
"Feed your head... feed your head... feed your head"
Some quotes by Lewis Carroll:
"Alice thought to herself, 'Then there's no use in speaking.' The voices didn't join in this time, as she hadn't spoken, but to her great surprise, they all thought in chorus (I hope you understand what thinking in chorus means -- for I must confess that I don't), 'Better say nothing at all. Language is worth a thousand pounds a word!"
"If you limit your actions in life to things that nobody can possibly find fault with, you will not do much!"
"If everybody minded their own business, the world would go around a great deal faster than it does."
"Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee agreed to have a battle; for Tweedle Dum said Tweedle Dee had spoiled his nice new rattle."
" 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master -- that's all.' "
"Take care of the sense and the sounds will take of care themselves."
"How cheerfully he seems to grin,
How neatly spreads his claws..."
I am a woman, one who is not at all represented by the most prodigious crusaders against the recent examples of so-called "misogyny". So I'm "through the looking glass" by definition on these discussions at DU. As such for the last week or so, it has seemed to me, as Alice said above, "Better to say nothing at all". I have though, read all of the threads.
As a bystander on the sidelines, these are my observations:
The sheer nastiness of the very few conducting the bulk of the Word Wars is 10 times worse than what they're complaining about. The reason I say that is this...
I did a little experiment a few days ago just out of curiosity. And this was before any mention of 3 anybodies. I don't, and never have, put anyone on ignore. But I noticed, myself, before it was brought up (that I was aware of anyway) that just a few people were monopolizing the most contentious high post-count threads. My number was 4 people btw (including someone who is almost in the same league as to over-posting in threads but not quite, yet).
I wanted to see what one of those awful threads would look like if those 4 were put on ignore. It was interesting. The giant mega-thread suddenly became normal length that way - about 50 posts. That tells me something. And it isn't just one thread, I looked at three more of the same kind while I was at it. Same result. Anyone can try the same experiment, and see for themselves. Repeatable results are not an opinion, but a fact.
The huge number of their posts, and the constant attacks in them, is overwhelming.
The fact is, these few people ARE creating the problem. Those who are saying so are RIGHT, about this. Is there any reason why so few people should be allowed to run amuck like this over everyone else, all the while complaining about OTHERS' behavior! O. M. G. If ever there was anyone with no room to talk about rudeness and insensitivity, it is these few.
Worst of all though, is what is slowly happening to meaning and our ability to even find words to communicate with each other, words which will not set off another "shitstorm" and derail any discussion we try to have about anything. I'm hoping that some of those who are talented in the use of language who have commented on this in various posts, will repeat those thoughts and any others they may have, in this thread too. I think this is the most serious problem of all -- the corruption of language and meaning via enforced redefinition by even well-meaning ideology. The end does not justify the means, and it is not worth it.
When someone "messes with" rationality, which is what the twisting of meaning and logic that we see in these threads is, I don't take that kindly. We see the attacks on rationality clearly enough when it comes from the Right, but do we recognize it when it comes from the Left? It's the same animal, wearing a different outfit -- and for the same purpose... getting us to lay down our own thought and judgement in the service of someone else's agenda. To me, an attack on rationality itself is as serious as any can be, short of violence... much more serious than some passing offense taken. (I learned long ago not to fall for that, which is why I recognize it. Similarly, those here standing against it are least vulnerable to it; those joining in with it on the other hand, have a problem -- one which they are making themselves blind to.)
I'm not advocating that anything in particular be done, and if nothing is done and it goes on this way indefinitely that's fine with me - "no skin off my back" as they say. But there's no doubt about this: the problem will continue as long as this behavior by these few continues, it's that simple. The obvious question is, is it likely that the few will stop on their own? It doesn't seem so, unless possibly some peer encouragement could help.
The one thing I never hear about and can't quite figure out... where does truth figure in? How does truth get through the gauntlet -- that string of prohibited adjectives in the CS? That's where the answer that's provided seems to be "you take your chances". That isn't really good enough. I know how to say what someone wants to hear and/or stay out of trouble, and I know how to say the truth, but I don't know how to do both at the same time. And if I can't talk about what's true, then it's not worth getting into.
If I could speak freely, I could be clearer. But this is the best I can do under the circumstances. Btw I believe in being as gentle as possible with people, but that can't be the only consideration. Content has to matter, truth has to matter - or why do it?
WFE
DU's tolerance is almost non-existent.
Anyone can be tolerant toward oneself, or those one likes. That isn't tolerance, it's preference. Just slap the "bigot label" (rightly OR most often wrongly) on anyone, and they can be attacked at will. Even Pres. Obama has been called a bigot here, which shows that almost anyone is fair game. Point out the obvious though, that there's essentially no difference between one rationalized-hate and the other, and the sky will fall.
On the bus pic though: it's effective but also promotes a fallacy, in that only one religion is associated with flying planes into buildings. (And one has to wonder what kind of crap science promotes knowingly false statements?) Secondly, there's plenty of faith in science. The two are flip sides of the same coin. As long as anything is unknown there will be faith in science. Zealots of any flavor have the most in common with each other.
To those of us who are missing anyone today...
and to those who are gone from us, whether temporarily or permanently. I think this is really beautiful while at the same time, not too "mushy", and rarest of all... cheerful and upbeat.
.
That was so... civil-like.
28,872 posts since July 6, 2003
So (according to some) all that matters is who owns the site -- not the posters who make the content (for free I might add, and pay to be here). Well, the downward spiral is underway. I've seen that exact same sentiment expressed and this same progression of attitudes before on other message boards, and I know how it goes from here. So before we get there, this is for all of us (past and present) as well as the OP... we will all eventually scatter to the four winds one way or another, but that does not mean we are valueless like disposable paper cups that are tossed aside...
"Here where the angels have appeared and are gone
Your face like an ember glows in the dawn
But I want you to remember --
All wild deeds live on... "
(And ps... to misconstrue the lines above as in any way negative, is to have no clue what they mean in which case there is no need to know now. Thanks.)
If how H&M looks to outsiders is a concern...
what about making it a "private forum" which is only visible when logged in as a member? Lots of message boards have forums like that.
Wouldn't that also make posts here less likely to turn up in outside search engines?
"Taking offense" at anything is something I don't care about and don't do.
What anyone says or thinks about me has no effect on my value as a person whatsoever. It doesn't diminish me, or elevate me. The opinion of me that matters is mine, and no one can change that but me. If someone looks down on me then that tells me they have very bad taste and are clueless, and clueless people with bad taste bore me to distraction, so it all works out fine. I have zero interest in critiquing people, and I don't think very highly of those who do. It tells me a lot about a person.
What matters to me is getting to what people are trying to say, not how they say it. People can be lousy at the "how" and be great at the "what". Or vice versa. The "what" is the gift, the "how" is the wrapping. I'll take a diamond in a paper bag over a pile of shit in an beautiful box any day.
What passes for values today is such a joke. Sad, really. But there is poetic justice - people who insist on garbage thinking have that to live with then. They may make other people who listen to it miserable but they are miserable too, so how smart is that? I detour far around dopes who can't figure that much out, so their words and opinions? Left in the dust at a distance.
Plain-spoken gets hidden while passive-agressive trolling goes on endlessly.
DU3 is very difficult for plain-spoken people, and I think that's a shame. I remember making the point, several times, that it's necessary to "choose one's battles", and that if the trivial battles always get fought then the big issues go by the wayside. Trivia automatically takes precedence and takes on a higher priority than substance when that happens. But no, no, no, the intense trivial battles over only marginally questionable words being used had to be fought, every time, to the nth degree. Now we see this. I am not surprised. And if I and others could see this coming far down the road, then maybe there is a reason why we could predict that. What's true is true, whether it's accepted or not.
DU needs to get its standards focused on values that matter. In time, maybe that will happen. Then again if nothing changes it could go on like this.
Point being, I would've let Prism's post stand - because I (among numerous others) am ok with calling a troll, a troll. If we go too far in taking away posters' ability to express themselves, not much is going to get expressed - and even what IS expressed is so obtuse it's often hard to figure out what in the heck is being said. I'll say it again: DU is hamstringing itself, and right at the beginning of a Presidential election cycle. Not good.
On the longterm troll issue I'll say this: posts are the currency of this place. If the established trolls got no replies, their clout and validity would be deflated. If you want to minimize a troll, don't feed it. Feed others on the right track instead, bump them up. I never could understand why threads by the biggest trolls would get hundreds of replies around here. They are at best hot air and boring. Not just everyday boring, but omg boring! Admins do what they do, and we can complain about that or beseech them or whatever, but each one of us still has our own currency to vote with in this marketplace of ideas.
I'd like to see a time when trolls' threads do not have hundreds or even tens of replies - that would be great. Starve the suckers! At least, make one point and leave it, don't feed the damn thing anymore. I think it would help, I really do.
Just one opinion, ymmv.
One of the best movie soundtracks ever, has to be "Pretty in Pink"
If You Leave, Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark
Left of Center, Suzanne Vega
Wouldn't It Be Good, Danny Hutton Hitters
Bring On the Dancing Horses, Echo and the Bunnymen
Please, Please, Please, Let Me Get What I Want, The Smiths
My sentimental favorite though, is True Romance: Two Hearts by Chris Isaak, and the Theme.
Third place... Empire Records.
K&R I can relate to everything you wrote, WilliamPitt.
It's not just in the Gospels, the prophets are all about the same theme. (At the end of the Old Testament, from Isaiah to Malachi.) If they're actually read instead of picked at, it's everywhere. There isn't any cutthroat bs that's being done today, that isn't in there in the prophets. It was foretold, and then happened, in the time of the prophets; and it was foretold to happen again now, and is re-happening again. There are so many references in the prophets, somebody really should make a book out of them. But here are three, just from Isaiah...
And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. (Isaiah 59:14) KJV
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. (Isaiah 10:1, 2) NKJV
For he (King of Assyria) says: "By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom, for I am prudent; also I have removed the boundaries of the people, and have robbed their treasuries; So I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man. My hand has found like a nest the riches of the people, and as one gathers eggs that are left, I have gathered all the earth; and there was no one who moved his wing, nor opened his mouth with even a peep." (Isaiah 10:13, 14) NKJV
There is truly "nothing new under the sun". "Truth is fallen in the street", that's a very powerful phrase (it reminds me of a murder, like the Kitty Genovese one) and it's so true today. And "boundaries", i.e regulations? It goes to show that this isn't the first time these same practices were done, and by the same described perpetrators. (Btw, "Assyrian" does not mean from anywhere in the Middle East, it isn't as facile as that.)
Today's church: it was described pretty accurately too, considering the writing was thousands of years ago - almost as if it was known that it would be this way ahead of time, huh? (The description in Revelation 17 and 18, with references back to the prophets once again.)
There's a lot of interesting stuff in the Bible if one learns how to read it - and that isn't an easy process, and it has to be mostly "self-taught" imo. This is a great tool, among others... http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Isa&c=10&v=1&t=KJV#1 Click on the little numbers ("Strong's" numbers) and it shows the original language meaning of words - that in itself can be eye-opener.
It's not offensive. It's a metaphor, and it refers to behavior that anyone can do,
regardless of race, age, gender, or orientation. It refers to nothing inherent about anyone. Since it can apply to anyone, and it's chosen behavior minute to minute, just how is that a minority slur?
That is absolute nonsense.
It's much less offensive than another term for the same thing which is accepted, the many variations on "panties in a wad". 'Splain that one to me, Lucy.
Taking offense should be reserved for the "big stuff", otherwise it will be devalued and trivialized and there will be a a jury-nullification backlash against caring about even major offenses. Is that what's wanted?
The truth is, those who are "offended" by this term are trying to put our focus on the term itself in order to escape notice of the behavior it describes - trivial sensitivity. THAT is the issue, not the metaphor for it. It's an attempt to use this kerfluffle to legitimize the presumed right to flip out over nothing, and to make a mountain out of a molehill. The "pearl clutchers" want their molehills respected. Well molehills won't be respected, and they shouldn't be, no matter what words are used about it.
So blacklist as many terms as you like, the behavior will still be brought up, it will still be referred to, and it will still be justifiably denigrated. There's nothing to be gained by this phoney affront. All that will come from it, is more people noticing that it's (bullshit) er... a tempest in a teapot - another great metaphor for it.
Go ahead, blacklist teapots now. That would be just as legitimate.
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Member since: Mon Jun 23, 2008, 12:17 PM
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