pinebox
pinebox's JournalOh?
Let's talk.
Tell us please where Bernie isn't progressive? Go ahead. I'm betting you'll say guns won't you. Not sure if you're aware that he voted for the AWB in the 80s but go ahead.
Hillary isn't a progressive.
You want a list?
I shall provide it.
Iraq
TPP
KXL
Voting for a border fence
Saying child migrants should be sent home
Having a melt down as SOS over gender changes of same sex couple
Wall Street donations
Speaking fees
Taking money from weapons deals
Honduras
Comments about nuking Iran
Calling herself a moderate
NAFTA
DOMA
DADT
Opposing gay marriage in New York State
Brownbeck Amendments
Glass-Steagall
No living wage
No free college
No universal health care (ACA coverage gap....ACA will never provide UHC)
Pro arctic drilling
pro fracking
on and on..........................
In fact, in three seperate bills, Hillary broke with democrats to vote in favor of the use of this chemical in US fuel.
Hillary broke with Democrats against ensuring the workers at the Rocky Flats Environmental Technology Site would not receive life insurance, health and life insurance benefits when their environmental work was terminated by the republican majority.
Hillary broke ranks with the democrats and voted with the majority of republicans to eliminate the requirement of reusable fuel in US gasoline in 2004.
Hillary voted with republicans for oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.
To authorize the State of Virginia to petition for authorization to conduct natural gas exploration and drilling activities in the coastal zone of the State.
Hillary didn't vote
That's your candidate. OWN IT.
Why America dislikes & doesn't trust Hillary Clinton
I'm not going to beat around the bush here with this but this has to be said.
We have a candidate right now who will more than likely lose in a GE. Straight up. According to polling, Hillary loses to both Rubio and to Cruz.
Now before the spin begins "polls right now mean nothing", maybe you should try and look at this poll because NOBODY has ever been elected who has a negative rating, EVER.
And do you know why that is? It's a new age folks and the entire world is at your fingertips. We can go to youtube and google and find out everything about everybody. Literally. Let's face it, no other candidate has switched stances as much as Hillary has. You can literally write a laundry list on every single issue and she has. Name one she hasn't expect taking money from Wall Street. Of course people don't want to see that while she's busy telling Wall Street to "knock it off" in Iowa she skipped town to meet with them http://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-philadelphia-218311
HORSESHIT!
Wake up people! When I can go to youtube and find a video of a 13 minute long video of Hillary Clinton lying through her teeth on every single damn thing, even when she debated Obama during 2007, she is damaged goods!
This is why so many distrust her and why she will LOSE a general election!
What Hillary supporters don't understand
Ok, I am going to do my best here to explain some things and this is a response to the post here;
Bernie JOINED the Dem party to try to become president because he knew he couldn't win otherwise. And yet so many Bernie fans trash the party that he voluntarily JOINED. Such hypocrisy. So pathetic.
And the thing is, BERNIE would be disappointed. I love Bernie, but some of his supporters are saying things that are just plain off the beam. "Hillary is a war monger." "Hillary is a Republican." And on and on and on. Wild eyed and off the beam.
If the Dem party is so terrible, why did Bernie so recently JOIN it?????????
Let me put this into perspective.
I think one of the biggest things that Hillary supporters fail to understand is that people followed Bernie. Look, I'll be honest. I myself am an indy with green leaning who SWITCHED to Democrat in order to caucus for Bernie. Some of you may dislike that but the fact is, Bernie is growing the Democratic party. Period. Hillary is not.
A lot of people are fed up right now, I mean really fed up. People are busting their asses working 40/hrs a week and aren't able to make it. Hillary is seen as a peace-meal approach but you know, we've tried that and it's failed. Wall Street has gotten richer and there are more people on food stamps now than ever before. People are literally suffering in America and Hillary is seen as more of the same old-same old. An enabler of a system that has left millions of people ion the shadows.
One perfect example right now is both the fight for single payer and minimum wage. It's basic math. Despite people saving more with single payer, Hillary supporters spin it about taxes when the truth is the savings in single payer > the tax increase. It's money in your pocket and minimum wage? We are really having this fight? You're Dems FFS! Why should anybody work 40/hrs a week and rely on Gov't assistance? They sure as hell shouldn't be! Fuck that noise!
This is the defining difference, right here---
Many Bernie supporters are voting for HIM and NOT the Democratic party. That is the huge difference BUT if you want then to stay around and still be Dems after the election, well you know what you have to do--start supporting principles which are Dem foundations and not more wars, big money in DC and by God start fighting for a living wage!
People have lost hope, a lot of hope. Bernie gives millions that again.
This what it's about
It's truly sad "Democrats" are throwing universal health care under the bus
It is and honestly this should be an issue we ALL agree on.
It's time to have a liberal litmus test.
"The angry white people have been there from the start, and now he's added magic unicorn policies to the mix" says it all right there. Yes, people are pissed and is it any wonder? They've been screwed over by politicians on BOTH sides. Period. People are sick and tired of politics and politicking by representatives who claim to be for them but in the end act like they belong to the other party over all. Casein point; the 89 Democrats (including DWS) who voted to gut SNAP http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/1/29/1273428/-These-89-Democrats-Voted-to-Cut-8-7-Billion-from-Food-Stamps
That's one example of many. If we want to go on, we can talk about Hillary and how she voted for building a border fence which O'Malley hit her on http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/1/29/1273428/-These-89-Democrats-Voted-to-Cut-8-7-Billion-from-Food-Stamps
Yeah, people are pissed.
This whole entire "how much will it cost" coming from Dems about Bernie's health care plan sounds identical to Paul Ryan when Obama first proposed the ACA. The talking points coming from Hillary supporters are IDENTICAL and you've just shown that. Are we going to start hearing about the "Bernie single payer death panel" or "Bernie death panels" next?
Health care is a HUMAN RIGHT and we are the only country among all first world countries who doesn't have it. You sight cost but yet in the end, you actually save money because the cost of your deductible is greatly reduced under a single payer system. Your talking points here with what you say with "admitting that Single Payer would mean a significant number of people would either pay more, have worse coverage than they do now, or both" is exactly the kind of fear mongering that Republicans did with the ACA. It's a conservative talking point yet you've nothing to back that up. However I do.
Under a single payer system, people get better care. From Physicians for a National Health Program....
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/quality.pdf (more at link)
income, employment, or diagnosis. Under single-payer, every American would be covered by the
insurance plan in their state or region, which would pay hospitals and doctors – who would remain
private – directly. This unified system would foster universal high quality, because quality of care
would have to be kept high enough to be acceptable to all citizens. Other proposals perpetuate a
multi-tiered health systeŠm.
Š*Single-payer would allow patients to choose their physicians and to continue to see them if they
changed jobs or financial status. No other proposal can assure this. This continuity of doctors
and nurses, who can get to know and care about patients, is critical to quality, but is rapidly
disappearing from the medical landscape, as HMOs/insurers hire and fire physicians, and
employers’ shift plans to take advantage of the lowest price each year. These disruptions in care are
built into other reform proposals.
Š*Single-payer reform makes health care affordable and accessible to all. Health care that is
denied or delayed because of costs – or, increasingly, because an insurer is refusing coverage – can
no longer be characterized as the “highest quality in the world.” Single-payer uses savings on
administrative waste (over $350 billion annually) to fund coverage of uninsured and to improve
benefits to insured Americans
You say
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/more-and-more-americans-agree-bernie-sanders-and-not-just-those-who-identify-left
http://www.politicususa.com/2015/06/03/polls-americans-socialists-bernie-sanders.html
You say "left wing" like that's a bad thing. Sorry but "left wing" is a beautiful thing. You have a problem with getting the money out of politics, free college, universal health care, a living wage, less wars, more concentration on the American people than on regime change? These are Dem ideals. The problem is the party in many respects has moved right. FDR is rolling in his grave and Ike is saying a gigantic "WTF, I'd be labeled a socialist today".
Sorry but when you throw single payer under the bus, you better check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Bernie Sanders Takes On Walmart
Here's something you won't see Hillary doing anytime soon. The choice is clear who is REALLY fighting for the average American!
Hope and change you can believe in is politicians being truthful and honest! There is no clearer choice this coming election!
http://www.politicallore.com/bernie-sanders-takes-on-walmart/1618
Showing once again his support for the common man, Senator Bernie Sanders, I-VT, has taken on the Walmart corporation for its exploitation of its workers and this time Sanders hit the $130 billion plus Walmart family square in the face with an honest pie.
Sanders took to Twitter, the social media communications network to lambaste the Walmart family. At present, Walmart pays minimum wage, cuts employee hours, doesn’t offer benefits and is the epitome of the user/exploit model of administration found far too often in business, government, and religious bodies. It’s gotten to the point that the American taxpayers are paying an additional $6 billion in economic support for Walmart’s employees who are in need of welfare and food stamps and other subsidies just to survive.
Walmart’s owners and stockholders are the culprits here because they care not about the workers and know they have the American public wrapped around their fingers. The public is too stupid, indifferent, uncaring, and uninformed to care about their fellow Americans in such desparate need. The reason being is that Walamart provides such cheap discounts that the American people have become figuratively addicted to the chain.
What’s worse is the lack of support from official sources. Walmart stock is good and is part of every investment portfolio. That unfortunately includes all police, military, all three branches of government employees, teachers, doctors, nurses, all unions in including construction. These stockholders don’t want to see their dividends drop so they won’t stand up to the suppression the Walmart family is putting on the workers. It’s much like what happened to Disney ten years ago. Employees and even high end execs had been complaining about the company and then leader Michael Eisner. Even with mountains of evidence regarding corruption and incompetence, the American people sat on their butts until the dividends dropped and they booted Eisner out in no time and now Disney is the biggest entertainment juggernaut on the planet.
I'm astonished by Hillary supporters
Absolutely astonished.
I've seen Hillary supporters here on DU in the last few days do this;
Defend fracking.
Defend a non living wage.
Say single payer health care is bad.
Defend The Patriot Act.
Say that Hillary wanting to put back door encryption in our devices is fine.
Her college plan is fine and people should pay something.
Defend the 89 Dem reps who voted to gut SNAP.
Some of these are the core principles of being a Democrat & yet they're against them. I'm sorry but you're defending shit like the above, you're no Dem, hell you aren't even a Liberal. Almost every single one of these listed above are Republican talking points.
Shit like this makes me glad I'm an indy.
Absolutely a DAMNING piece---Hillary touted fracking across the globe
and only Bernie Sanders can be trusted to save us from it.
That's what an article on HuffPo is saying.
And is it ever a hard hitting piece!
Hillary Clinton Touted Fracking Across the Globe, and Only Bernie Sanders Can Be Trusted to Save Us From It
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-sainato/hillary-clinton-touted-fr_b_8564764.html
Roh roh......so much for all those environmental concerns. Once again, Big Oil is the #1 concern, screw the people!
But, Hillary is for the people! Right? Not so much. Why is it corruption leads a trail of blood wherever she walks?
Spin, spin, spin, paying lip service is lip service.
You can't see me!
Facts aren't misleading Dan.
But that's a good way to spin it so things fit your narrative.
I've debunked you twice, want a third time? Ok.
Are you honestly kidding all of us? Dan, what part of "The TPP is the gold standard" aren't you understanding? She mentions the TPP and how wonderful it is in her book 45 times. FORTY FIVE. The same position but her position is always changing when the wind blows. Again, the pot issue.
No Dan she's not more electable, she doesn't do as well in a general. The general is what matters. Not Dem pandering.
As opposed to those who won't vote for Hillary because she's been hated for decades? I have news for you, Hillary is hated a great deal more than Bernie is. In fact, I'll even use your own logic against you with "GOP attacks only Hillary".
Hillary is underwater & it's a problem. People don't vote for candidates they don't like.
No Dan it isn't dumb, it's a fact. It's not over the top rhetoric either. It's a fact she's a flip flopper and she's the biggest one in the entire race no matter what side of the aisle you look at. She's completely reactionary. How many years did it take her to come out in support of SSM?
*KXL
*TPP
*Single Payer
*NAFTA
*DOMA
*Iraq
*Guns
*Insert latest political issue here
On and on Dan. On and on.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/08/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-now-opposes-trans-pacific-partners/
No Dan, it isn't false. It's true and I showed you what Politifact said. You want another chart to prove my point?
Here you go. Show us otherwise. Show us something that says she isn't propped up by the 1% please. Ball is in your court because this is factual.
Uhhh no Dan, you're wrong. See the NEA https://gadflyonthewallblog.wordpress.com/2015/09/21/the-nea-may-be-about-to-endorse-hillary-clinton-without-input-from-majority-of-members/
And see that's what you don't understand. You say that but Trump said he agrees with Bernie on trade deals. Can you show me please where ANY Republican candidate has said they agree with Hillary? See, here's the difference, Bernie will work with the other side on issues because HE CAN. Hillary would like to BUT SHE CAN'T. I don't know how to explain this better to you but the absolute hate of Hillary from the right and many indy voters causes her a brick wall. We can argue over this but if you honestly think for a second that Republicans will work with Hillary you're mistaken.
Meanwhile Republicans helped Sanders get elected. Can you show us the same please for Hillary when she ran for Senate?
Thank you.
You're confused here Dan. You're thinking Republicans. True Libertarians see things quite differently. See their bylaws please and keep in mind, no (L) is currently serving in Congress.
https://www.lp.org/platform
Sure they're against single payer health care but most Libertarians I've met, real libertarians, by and large share some issues with liberals. That is where we need to concentrate instead of always think "They're the bad guys!" because that solves absolutely nothing. We can start with the Patriot Act and go from there which Hillary by the way has fully supported.
That's how you get shit done.
Recant
Dan, Hillary's record isn't as strong as Bernie's on environmental issues. I'll cite you both KXL and TPP right now.
Also, did you stop and think that that Board Chairwoman Carol Browner, served as Environmental Protection Agency administrator under President Bill Clinton? That's how politics works. Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
Let's see what the president of Earth Justice, who endorsed Bernie, has to say about the LCV endorsement.
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/11/09/3720490/lcv-endorses-hillary/
I just showed you evidence of people crossing over to vote for Bernie. Would you like more?
If Sanders ends up being the Democratic nominee for president, his GOP opponent is going to have a hard time beating him.
And as NPR's "Morning Edition" found out last year, some of Bernie's biggest fans are in Vermont's Northeast Kingdom, the poorest and most conservative part of the state.
Sorry Dan but the facts are Bernie is getting conservative support. I don't know what else to tell you but it is what it is and to go ahead and just turn a blind eye to it says a lot.
Yes, I think it's funny the way Bernie supporters throw around those words. I know that y'all are very skilled at "Six Degrees of Hillary Clinton", but outside the Bernie bubble, people recognize that she's a progressive on the issues. Hence all the endorsements from unions and LCV and her big lead among Democrats.
No Dan it isn't funny at all and she IS NOT progressive on the issues at all. She's a reactionary faux progressive who changes her views depending on how the wind is blowing. Can you show us where Bernie changed his views in the last 20 years? Go for it. Meanwhile, just a few days ago, Hillary changed her views on pot. What's next? Upping her stance to $15/hr?
Sorry Dan but her biggest donors are CEOs of the biggest companies in America. It is what it is. If you think big endorsements are a thing, go ask the people of the unions what they think and you'll see that while the entity supports Hillary, the people who make up these said entities, support Bernie. The people matter MORE than the organization much as policy matters OVER party.
You're being made a Mark by buying into the whole image rebrand thing. It's marketing and advertising 101 and you're being manipulated. You may not like that but the truth is, progressives don't make remarks about bombing Iran or support a wage which isn't a living wage. Nor are they against single payer. Have you read her stances on Social Security? Go read her record on it http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Hillary_Clinton_Social_Security.htm As far as union support goes, that doesn't mean someone is a progressive, it means someone is a Democrat.
Some people care about that, but most don't, because the understand that all humans change their minds on things over time and make mistakes. More importantly, people who will never ever vote for someone who voted for the IWR are already not supporting Hillary. Pounding this point over and over won't change anything.
Wrong. Most do care about it and that has a direct impact on how people perceive a candidate. As I cited, Hillary is underwater with how she is seen in terms of being trustworthy and if people like her. That bodes bad in a general because it equates to people just saying "meh" and NOT voting. Obama brought the fire, Hillary brings well, one that's been put out. In the Dem bubble she has some fire for sure but outside that small bubble, nope. Mark my words right now, bookmark my post. IF she is the candidate and that's a big IF right now a year out, the general will be a nail biter and it's possible Dems lose it. Mark my words as I said.
That billboard ad was an attack against Hillary, trying to tie her to the left wing policies of Bernie. If you really think the GOP is going after Bernie the same as Hillary, you need to wake up. During the GOP debates they almost exclusively attack Hillary. During the Dem debates they ran that Benghazi ad. Hillary is the one they are afraid of, and she's the one they are attacking. And she's still standing strong. If somehow Bernie comes out with the nomination, they will pummel him into the ground.
No Dan that was an attack ad on BOTH candidates. You said Bernie isn't being attacked and I clearly showed you he most certainly is. Now only that BUT he's being attacked by Dems too, specifically Clinton surrogates.
Let's take a look and see what conservative pundits are saying about Bernie shall we? Let's look at Red State http://www.redstate.com/search/Bernie+sanders and The Daily Caller https://goo.gl/Pdeg3Y
What's funny though is you cite how often cons attack Hillary but yet I'm guessing you think IF she's elected things will get done? Derp.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/25/claire-mccaskill-bernie-sanders_n_7662124.html
It's no surprise that you have libertarian leanings. However, libertarians are a small part of the GOP, and a small part of the population. They are also crazy.
Next time leave out all the images. It clutters the conversation.
No. Images are used to illustrate my point and back up facts. I have libertarian leanings? You misconstrue my point. It's not "Libertarian leanings", it's called "common interests". No matter WHICH candidate you support, we all agree on certain issues. Greens, Dems, JP'ers, Libertarains, all agree that nobody should be able to be fired because they are black. See what I mean?
True Libertarains Dan aren't members of the GOP, they're members of the Libertarian party and I'm sorry but my girlfriend isn't crazy and I take deep offense to that remark.
Maybe you should study the other sides of the coin and actually learn. Knowledge is power after all.
See Dan here's the deal
Every time Hillary gets some big endorsement, we question things. Do you know why we question things? Because often, the entities which endorse Hillary actually rank Bernie higher in their own little rankings or have fought heavily for Bernie.
2 such entities are right here.
See, let me clue you inn.
When it comes down to it, in a general, Hillary is behind Bernie. We can argue until we're red in the face but she is. While Hillary is popular AMONG DEMOCRATS she sure isn't outside the bubble. Hillary doesn't garner enthusiasm outside the Dem bubble, Bernie on the other hand has cross over power and that's been demonstrated many times with how he has Republicans voting for him.
I've heard some Hillary supporters actually say "we don't want Republicans voting for our nominee!". Hey, I don't want idjits voting in the general, people like that who don't understand that you need a coalition of voters to win the White House. If people think you can win strictly because your candidate is popular among your own party, boy do they have a rude awakening come next November when Dems lose the general.
LOL
You think that's funny? Really? REALLY? It's not fucking funny at all.
She's completely sold out to special interests and I can toss you FACTS all day long it yet you Hillary supporters refuse the reality that she is. That SHOULD concern you. Why do you think she hasn't said jack shit about ditching her SuperPACs? Why do you think she's so quiet on issues? Because she has a monetary stake in many things. Let's look at actual issues shall we? http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251788698
If you don't think money in politics is important, go be a Republican.
Nobody cares. What matters is who is more likely to get something accomplished about X, and that's Hillary.
Actually Dan millions DO CARE. However you're not seeing the forest through the trees here one bit.
*Iraq
*LGBT Rights like DOMA, DADT, SSM.
*KXL
*TPP
*NAFTA
*Guns
*Immigration
On and on it goes, where it stops only Hillary knows. She's a flip-flopper on just about every issue you can think of. We saw how well that worked out for Mitt Romney. This speaks of integrity & the American people aren't buying it. Why do you think Hillary is underwater in terms of how people like her and trust her?
There's no evidence for this (aside from meaningless anecdotes). It might be true to a small extent, but this effect will be dwarfed by people who think Bernie is too far left, and the fact that his campaign can't compete financially with the GOP.
You're incredibly wrong here Dan. Very. I myself am an Indy and the ONLY reason I'm voting for a Dem candidate is because Bernie is running. That's IT. Dems by far and large are to the right of me on many positions and I find my likeness in other areas. In fact, you may want to read this thread this thread on DU http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=781355
Meanwhile, THIS IS HAPPENING! http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/23/1395700/-Republicans-for-Bernie-Sanders
This is because the GOP has not run any attack ads against Bernie, and are training all their fire on Hillary.
WRONG. Completely wrong. In fact, Janie was just saying yesterday on here how Republicans are attacking Bernie left and right. If Republicans aren't running attack ads, can you describe what this is please? Thank you.
Of course they'll attack Hillary, they hate her, as much as Dems hate Sarah Palin.
No he isn't. It's going to be gridlock either way.
And this is always a constant faux attack on Bernie but in the end, there are common issues which both sides can work on.
*NSA
*Privacy concerns
*War (Tea Party support with that one & the Rand Paul neo-Libertarain side)
*Money in politics (Tea Party support with that one & the Rand Paul neo-Libertarain side)
See, it's amazing how many issues we all have in common. My girlfriend is Libertarian and yet, her and I agree on many things. Things like LGBT rights as example, gay marriage, and even some things when it comes to immigration. (Did you know that many true Libertarains believe in open borders? I bet you didn't) That's what you a coalition to get shit done.
You know who doesn't have that? Hillary. Nobody is going to work with her and it's strictly a fantasy to think otherwise. She is the most polarizing figure in politics and it's rooted in literally decades of hate and outright disdain for her.
If you honestly think the stagnation is bad now, wait until you see what it's like IF she's wins. It's going to royally suck. Hell, Republicans are already calling for her impeachment her very day in office if she's the winner. Think about that. Stop and think.
NOTHING will get done and people will literally suffer because of it, the Govt will shut down at every chance they can get leaving millions without a paycheck. Nope.
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