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Member since: Sun Aug 23, 2015, 03:58 PM
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If you're interested in Hillary's emails, interesting article, if not, skip this thread

I do not mean that to be rude. I understand that a lot of folks have probably heard enough on this.

I've too have read a fair amount on this. I like a little legal stuff now and then. This case has had some interesting issues if you like that sort of thing.

This article is written by someone claiming to be a Clinton supporter.

It is one of the longest articles I've ever read. 20 pages?. But I think it's quite good.

The person writing it is not a lawyer but I didn't mind that - she wrote very well about the arguments and issues.

I'll also tell you right now that it does't end well for Hillary. She thinks she'll be indicted and goes to great legal lengths to say why - while remaining quite objective and balanced - presenting the other side of the issue - each step of the way.

Do I Really Need to Worry About Hillary’s Emails? Yes. She Will Be Indicted

I can't say I agreed with everything said. I'm not positive they are right in their conclusions.

There's probably just a small percentage of people that will make it through the article. You probably have to be really into this story to read it and stay with it and maybe already know it well.

But I thought the effort deserved a link. Whoever wrote this obviously worked very hard on it.

It's really a very insulting premise.

Some people around here sincerely care about others. As I approach retirement age, I kind of feel that I've had my shot and what matters more to me is the kind of place I'm leaving to my kids.

The people dying without healthcare just eats me up - really upsets me. I can't stand it. I'm sick of it. But I know that if the GOP win the White House, it won't get better - it might get worse. And I also know if Hillary wins, there is no single payer in the cards and I feel her chances of universal are slim because she's not popular enough to carry the House and Senate.

I've been protesting wars since Vietnam. I've lost family members to war. Hillary and the GOP present a much greater chance of more war that than Sanders. I get to live in quiet fear of that if Bernie loses.

How many more black people do I have to watch get shot in the back by police? I do not have the words to describe the horror of such scenes of injustice in our society. I do not have faith in Hillary to solve that.

I fought against NAFTA before it had a name. I knew what it was going to do. It devastated the lives of many dear friends. Only one candidate can be relied upon to stop that bleeding.

I could go on and on. Climate change, Citizens United, etc, etc.

Like I said, after fighting for progressive causes since I was a young teenager, the notion of the top post is insulting.

As Hillary Clinton bolstered Boeing, company returned the favor

link to Seattle Times article dated March 21, 2016
So appreciative of her sales efforts, Boeing’s then-president and CEO Jim McNerney once turned to her on stage at a government-business conference and lauded her department for advocating like no other in the past two decades: “It’s like back to the late ’80s and early ’90s all over again.”
During the periods when Secretary Clinton was pushing governments to sign deals with Boeing, the aerospace company provided financial support to help her achieve a major foreign-policy goal. Boeing also donated more than $1 million to the Clinton family’s global foundation set up by her husband, former President Clinton, and sponsored speeches that paid him six-figure sums.
As Clinton and Boeing were aiding each other’s agendas at the State Department, the company in turn supported the Clintons outside of government.
Before his surprise win in Michigan, Sen. Bernie Sanders hammered Clinton in a CNN sponsored debate for her support of free-trade agreements. He then mocked the U.S. Export-Import Bank, a federal agency that provides insurance and financing to aid international transactions, calling it “The Bank of Boeing” and a form of corporate welfare.

Clinton defended the bank, saying it preserved U.S. jobs and helped companies of all sizes.
CNN moderator Anderson Cooper noted that Boeing and other big corporations get most of the Ex-Im support. “Do they really need this money?” he asked her.Clinton said she “investigated” whether Boeing did need the financial support. “I’ll tell you what, Anderson,” Clinton replied. “…I concluded that they did.”

The Seattle Times is one of the few major newspapers not in the 90% of the US media controlled by the big six corporate firms. The Blethen family, who live locally around Seattle, Washington, have privately owned the Seattle Times for about 120 years. Like Bernie, the Seattle Times is not for sale. The Seattle Times editorial board endorsed Bernie Sanders. Boeing has been operating in Washington State for close to one hundred years so the Seattle Times has been covering Boeing for a long time.

This isn't completely news. Others have reported about the Clintons, Boeing, the Clinton Foundation and the State Department and it was also reported that Saudi Arabia contributed roughly $5 million to the Clinton Foundation around the time of the F-15 sale. And the Clinton Foundation has been subpoenaed to provide documents related to projects related to the State Department. The concern here is reinforced by a credible independent media outlet and new details are provided from researching the more recently released emails.

Thanks for the collection of emails. Here's more that struck me:

Search result: 259 emails found with the phrase "extremely sensitive", 205 with "extremely sensitive source"

Isn't the state department often supposed to protect their sources? All of the ones I looked at are about foreign countries - "extremely sensitive" information about foreign countries is arguably born classified.

"So why isn't it classified now?" Because for example, Qaddafi is dead - it doesn't need to be classified any more.

334 emails found with "Intel" (short for intelligence)

Meanwhile, Hillary is trying to get us to believe that the more than 2,100+ emails that had classified information were ALL retroactively classified. Can you imagine what the odds are of that in 31,000+ emails - that 2,100+ were retroactively classified and none were classified at the time, when emails with defense, foreign information, intelligence, etc are born classified?

If that was truly so, where are all the emails she did classify? And how did she do it without using a .gov email address - because it's on the record that she did not use one? (Oops, maybe they didn't think that one through).

Why should the 18 emails between the President and the Secretary of State be avilable to hackers and potentially put out on the internet? Why are nine more of them missing after she only deleted personal emails?

If she didn't transmit classified information (which she claims), how come the Inspector General has depositions from agents in his Intelligence Community that say they found emails with classified information at the time of transmission? And why didn't the State Department dispute that finding in their Feb 4th press conference?

Why should 100-150 FBI agents spend many man months looking at this if there was nothing to look at? Don't they have better things to do - like catch some terrorists or something?

Why did Hillary lie about the four significant points she brought up in her first press conference on this (ie she wanted to keep emails between her and Bill confidential when Bill doesn't email)?

Lots of good questions and no good answers from the Clinton camp.

Anyway, here's one more email that stuck out that I happened to stumble into:

For: Hillary
From: Sid
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2U11 12:58 1-11v1
Re: Q's military strategy and rebel difficulties

I'm not going to quote the whole thing- you can click the link to see it. "Q" in the subject is "Qaddafi". The context is the Libyan civil war is underway and NATO has implemented it's no fly zone - and the US Military is engaged as the email states: "forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi are feeling the effects of the western allies bombing and missile attacks, that began on March 19/20"

Incredibly (and arguably, stupidly), Hillary, the Secretary of State, emails a response to this situation to someone not cleared for classified information with "This fits our info anaysis. Thx." on an unsecure network - that was proven to be easily hacked in 2013.

The context stated another way:
there's military action going on with US forces in the middle east and the Secretary of State is confirming what the Obama Admin and US Military know about their enemy combatant and others in an unsecure email with someone who does not have security clearance for such classified information. How is that legal?

Blumenthal is basically an intelligence mercenary. How does anyone know at the time he's not selling Hillary info to others? I do think the guy is a bit of a weasel.

Hillary's response: "fits our info anaysis" is revealing and bad because it tells whoever may intercept or see the email a bunch about the US thoughts on this matter - confirming that in the eyes of the US President, the US Administration, US Intelligence and the US Military, the email has it right. Doing that potentially puts US military lives or others at risk. This email is so obviously born classified. In the worst case, it's classified erring in the side of caution because it is a discussion about a party the US is in combat against. I don't think that's unreasonable or would take a rocket scientist to figure out. What the US President, the US Administration, US Intelligence and the US Military think about an enemy combatant or a situation when they're at war is nobody's business.

How is this classified email fiasco even debatable about exposing, transmitting or revealing classified info and illegally storing classified information at her home? How can one maintain their innocence with such behavior, facts and evidence? It's so outrageous, callous and stupid that it's breathtaking. It boggles my mind how she could do this. It does undercut her assertion that she's ready to be president - because she looks so clueless with stuff like this - and a bunch of her potential future subordinates will not respect or trust her when they see behavior like this ... and that she's standing in front of the American people lying her head off again about it, over and over.

Whether they indict her or not, the GOP will be pointing this stuff out to the electorate during the general election. Why shouldn't they? If Condoleezza Rice did this, wouldn't Dems do the same thing? Sure they would. So let's not get too hypocritical.

Whether one likes Hillary or not and whether they indict her or not, Hillary has a bigger electability problem than most realize. She's served up irrefutable proof of how careless, naive and dishonest she is. You think what they did swiftboating John Kerry with bogus information was bad? Trump or whoever is going to have a field day with this - and they can pretty much prove it. It's really hard to quickly and convincingly refute the truth in an election. You can try to lie, like she has for years, but up against this, most folks except her most loyal supporters won't buy it.

Legal group submits plan to depose 7 top Clinton, State Dept. aides in email battle

Source: Washington Post

A conservative legal advocacy group submitted plans Tuesday to question under oath seven current and former top State Department officials and aides to Democratic presidential contender Hillary Clinton — but not Clinton herself at this point — about her use of a private email server when she was secretary of state.

Judicial Watch said its deposition plan includes Cheryl D. Mills, who was Clinton’s chief of staff at State; Huma Abedin, a top aide who served as Mills’s deputy and who now is vice chairman of Clinton’s presidential campaign; and Bryan Pagliano, a Clinton staff member during her 2008 presidential campaign who helped set up the private server.

U.S. District Judge Emmet G. Sullivan of Washington granted a request on Feb. 23 for legal discovery by Judicial Watch, which seeks to determine whether Clinton’s email arrangement thwarted federal open-records laws. After his order, Sullivan directed Judicial Watch to file a detailed plan about how it intended to proceed.

The submitted plan can be contested by lawyers from the Justice and State departments and is subject to approval by Sullivan.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-group-submits-plan-to-depose-7-top-clinton-state-dept-aides-in-email-battle/2016/03/15/b0f1e47a-ead6-11e5-bc08-3e03a5b41910_story.html

Here's a copy of the court document:

Aside from :
Cheryl Mills, Clinton's chief of staff at the State Department
Huma Abedin, a long time aid who served as Mills’s deputy
Bryan Pagliano, a Clinton staff member who helped set up the private server and got immunity recently after pleading the fifth

they've also requested:
Stephen D. Mull, Executive Secretary of the State Department during Clinton time there
Lewis A. Lukens, Executive Director of the Executive Secretariat
Patrick F. Kennedy, Under Secretary for Management since 2007
Donald R. Reid, Senior Coordinator for Security Infrastructure, Bureau of Diplomatic Security since 2003

- more on them and how it's claimed they fit is in the linked Discovery plan.

from linked court document: "Based on information learned during discovery, the deposition of Mrs. Clinton may be necessary. If Plaintiff [Judical Watch] believes Mrs. Clinton’s testimony is required, it will request permission from the Court at the appropriate time".

The administration is trying to run out the clock so they'll probably wait until close to the April 12th deadline to respond. They'll argue about it for maybe a couple of weeks and then the judge will need a couple of weeks to make his decision around the middle of May (about the time some say they expect the FBI and Inspector General reports to start to come out ...)

Testifying should begin roughly about 8 weeks after that, around the middle of July (about 3-4 weeks after the House Benghazi report comes out) and run through the conventions. The plan is to get the above testimony done in eight weeks. Then, around the middle of September, they may ask Hillary to come in and testify. Could be sooner if a bunch of them plead the 5th (as I expect some likely will have to because a crime has probably occurred for exposing classified information and someone is going to take the fall).

The best defense in terms of the Clinton candidacy is to try to stretch this out until after the election.

Judicial Watch has several more lawsuits going on this and recently, the GOP joined them, filing six more lawsuits on FOIAs related to Hillary's time at the State Department.

Stock up on the popcorn. The schedule for dragging Hillary through the media mud is starting to fill up ....

That's one study's cherry picking opinion

But many, many others do not agree

NAFTA at 20: One Million U.S. Jobs Lost, Higher Income Inequality

Economic Policy Institute Fast Track to Lost Jobs and Lower Wages
More than 5 million U.S. manufacturing jobs were lost between 1997 and 2014, and most of those job losses were due to growing trade deficits with countries that have negotiated trade and investment deals with the United States.

Towns, house values or homes, kids educations, etc got lost along with a significant drop in income and no safety net for a lot of them.

You walk around some of the towns in the rust belt with that article and they'll beat the living shit out of you for insulting the complete devastation of their lives and the unconscionable lack of compassion.

These people learned a trade. Did a bunch of what they were supposed to. And they got the rug pulled put from under them. And the only group of folks who made out well in long term on this deal, were the 1% Bernie talks about.

The notion of what they're spinning is an affront to the millions who suffered and lost their life's savings. I could go on and on. To me, it's like claiming the bombing of Hiroshima was a good thing for Japan or the slaughter of Jews in WWII was a good thing for Israel because their spreadsheets studying those events calculated a few positive numbers.

I was on a White House think tank studying NAFTA for Bush in 1989. We knew full well what NAFTA was going to do and tried to stop it. We at least got Bush to back off. Bill comes along, doesn't study it or look carefully - at the very least in how to implement it to lessen the damage and decides to make himself part of the history books.

And these economic gains Clinton touts, we knew it was going to be short term gain for long term pain. It was obvious. "Hey, look at me!! As president my numbers look really good!!" - only if you really believe what corporate America rightfully suckered Clinton with was good for the country. It wasn't. All you have to do is objectively look around at what the country was like in the early 90s and what it is like now. A bunch of the wealth and prosperity is gone - drained out of the US to other shores. The biggest culprit for that are these trade deals.

Their spreadsheet behind that article overlooks what really happened to American human beings. To me, it is offensive. This trade deal and how it was implemented was devastation on good, honest, hard working, decent Americans, blindsided when their own country sold them out for the welfare of corporations. I don't give a shit what they try to come up with. What I'm saying will be what the history books record - not some stupid spreadsheet analysis trying to prop up some lame politicians in Washington scrambling to save their jobs.

I posted about this before:

Hillary comes along in Dec 2007.

Hillary in part blamed the homeowners and then she said to Wall Street "cut it out"

Now look at the above chart. Don't you think she was a few years too late? These mortgages were already sold and falling apart. Her husbands removal of the regulations that Bernie fought against and would have secured them had been taken away.

Hillary hopped on that bus way too late.

Sanders’ ad makes specific mention of Goldman Sachs’ recent $5 billion settlement with federal government over toxic mortgage bonds, which relates to the firm’s securitization, underwriting and sale of residential mortgage-backed securities from 2005 to 2007.
“Our economy works for Wall Street because it’s rigged by Wall Street,” Sanders' ad states.

“How does Wall Street get away with it?” Sanders’ ad asks. “Millions in campaign contributions and speaking fees.”

Goldman Sachs, remember them? The folks who pay Hillary $250,000 per hour to speak to their employees. And have contributed millions to her campaigns and the Clinton Foundation.

You want to know where Bernie has been on mortgages and housing:
Sanders and the Progressive Coalition quickly sought to develop institutions and programs that would have a lasting impact on the community. The Progressives decided to make affordable housing a signature issue. Things got off to a rough start when their proposal for rent control was voted down after a coalition of property owners and establishment politicians hired a professional consultant to defeat it. With rent control off the table, and federal funding in short supply, the Progressives had to turn to more creative measures to address the housing crisis.

In 1983, they created the Community and Economic Development Office (CEDO), a permanent community-development office that would set development goals and initiate creative projects. CEDO initially focused on three areas of housing policy: protecting the vulnerable, preserving affordable housing, and producing affordable housing. While these goals sound typical of many municipal development authorities, CEDO's strategy was distinctive. It sought to decommodify residential property, ensure its housing projects would be permanently affordable, and actually empower residents. Its most important initiative, and the key to all of these goals, was the Burlington Community Land Trust.
This model gives the buyer the benefits of homeownership (including the tax deduction for mortgage interest, wealth accumulation through equity, and stable housing costs) that would otherwise be beyond her means. In return, she gives up the potential of windfall profits if the market keeps rising. BCLT recently published a study of the first 100 trust homes that were sold to a second generation. "The implications were very powerful," says Brenda Torpy. "The initial homebuyers realized a net gain of 29% on the money they had invested. Our homeowners were taking an average of $6,000 with them. These aren't the sky-high returns that some people have come to expect from the housing market, but these were people who would never have entered it in the first place." That's because most BCLT homeowners "would never have been able to buy homes otherwise, even with existing federal and state programs," explains Torpy. "For many, we are a stepping stone between renting and homeownership."
BCLT homeowner Bob Robbins says, "I think every community should have a land trust--not just as a fringe option but as the dominant model to keep housing affordable."

Ten years before Hillary showed up in Washington, Bernie was finding successful ways for people who couldn't afford the conventional offerings to own homes without them getting ripped off by Goldman Sachs. He was the first in the entire country to do so.

Under Sanders, Burlington became the first city in the country to fund community-trust housing.[61]

Hillary hangs with and takes money from people who scam poor home owners. Bernie finds safe ways for those same kinds of people to own a little part of the American dream without getting ripped off. Bernie was effectively telling these pricks to cut it out and finding good solutions for these people 26 years before Hillary ran for media cover on Dec 2007 when it was too late and the wheels were falling off the economy.

Bernie's fight for this kind of housing didn't end there. In 2001:
The tri-partisan National Housing Trust Fund Act is co-sponsored by Bernie Sanders (I-VT) and John McHugh (R-NY).

And they finally got it:
The National Housing Trust Fund was established as a provision of the Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008, which was signed into law by President George W. Bush. The passage of National Housing Trust Fund legislation is a major victory for low income housing advocates and the lowest income people in our country with the most serious needs.

That's a stark difference between the two candidates. Bernie had vision and solved the problem for his constituents. Hillary got some video of her trying to stop the greed problem by the people who fund her - long after the point when it was way too late.

As human beings, to me, the difference between them is night and day. Bernie's honest and he sincerely cares to do good things for the people he represents - particularly the poor or disadvantaged. Hillary is not honest and is like the kid in school who liked to run the United Way program - not so much because of the good it would do for others but because of the good it would do for her when others take notice of her.

Hillary wants to be the first woman president. Bernie wants a bunch of bad crap to stop happening to the people around him.

The differences cut right to the core of who they have been as people all their lives and why they have done what they have done all their lives. Hillary represents American aristocracy and the power and entitlement of the wealthy. Bernie represents the proletariat, working and middle class who have been getting the short end of the stick for the last number of decades.

If you're part of the American aristocracy, you should vote for her. She has your best interests at heart. But if not, you ought to look closer at what Bernie is really about because the heavy odds are, in some way, he's either got your back or he's in your corner.

"they have to have evidence that Clinton willfully committed a crime"

I don't think so.

Hillary signed a non disclosure agreement. In that agreement,
it made specific mention of various criminal clauses of the US Code that she was subject but not limited to - which proves she was aware of the applicable criminal laws, etc.

They also refer to EXECUTIVE ORDER 12958 -- April 17, 1995 signed by her husband, Bill. In there, it is using words like "any knowing, willful, or negligent action" so negligence in taking care of classified information is a violation that leads to "applicable laws" (cited in the non disclosure agreement).

Hillary's husband, Bill knows all about what happens to folks who store classified information at their house without authorization. It is a crime:
When Bill Clinton Pardoned His Former CIA Director over Classified Documents on His Home Computer

For Hillary to be innocent of that crime, she would have to convince the court that she knew as Secretary of State that she or those who used her server would never send or receive anything that was classified or could be classified after the fact and stored on her server between 2009 until recently when she turned her server over to the FBI. Given that many emails from foreign countries are "born classified", that's an absurd argument to attempt to make. So Hillary very arguably negligently exposed the security of classified information and illegally stored it at her home. Those are criminal acts.

Certainly, the illegal, unauthorized storage of classified material in her home is pretty much a slam dunk case. I can't imagine how she can refute it - just like Bill's own Director of the CIA couldn't refute it. It's a crime and he was convicted for it.

If you've followed this, part of the allegation is that they cut pieces of classified information and inserted that classified information into their emails. That's also against the law. They have depositions from Intelligence Community agents that information was classified at the time it was transmitted. That's against the criminal law - even if it is not marked classified.

And then we have the Clinton Foundation being subpoenaed for information about donors who contributed large amounts (ie $5+ million by Saudi Arabia and Boeing) who also got help from Hillary and the State Department. That has been widely reported by the media, smells real bad and nobody has very good answers yet.

The video is also right: the justice department doesn't cut an immunity deal with someone, if after months of looking at a situation, they don't think there are bigger fish to fry.

Further, the FBI (over a hundred agents), Intelligence Community agents and two inspector generals do not spend 9 months gawking at something if there is nothing to see.

Someone is going to get charged with something after all this time.

Hate to agree with a FOX Noise video but I think there's more right than wrong with what he says.

"Clinton Foundation received subpoena from State Department investigators"

Clinton Foundation received subpoena from State Department investigators
Investigators with the State Department issued a subpoena to the Bill, Hillary and Chelsea Clinton Foundation last fall seeking documents about the charity’s projects that may have required approval from the federal government during Hillary Clinton’s term as secretary of state, according to people familiar with the subpoena and written correspondence about it.

We've been assured that what Hillary did was here no different than what Condoleezza Rice or Colin Powell did as Secretary of State ... though for some stupid reason, no one has been able to find $5+ million donations from Saudi Arabia and Boeing to the Rice or Powell Foundations ... (I guess we just have to stay tuned ...)

Obviously, it would be silly of the GOP to try to bring this up during the general election because the Clintons have already assured us once again (paraphrased) "I did not take bribes from that country ... or company!" So we can take comfort that this will not come up and hurt our candidate's chances to be elected to the White House. Or maybe the spin should be "why wouldn't Americans want a president with the good sense to take bribes when they get the chance??"

So don't worry your pretty little heads about this, ok? Move along. There's nothing to see here.
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