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EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
72. It is you who is having trouble comprehending,Boo, so let me break it down for you again
Wed Apr 18, 2018, 06:11 PM
Apr 2018

You are correct - on its face, the trespass law does not require uniformity in order to be enforced.

However, this particular trespass law contains several affirmative defenses to a trespassing charge that essentially inoculate someone from being deemed a defiant trespasser. One of them applies to “premises {that} were at the time open to members of the public” where the person “complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises." if a person complies with “all lawful conditions” of occupancy, they are not guilty of “defiant trespassing” under this statute.

In this instance, the only basis for the trespassing charge was the manager’s assertion that they failed to make a purchase. In order for the men to be trespassing, purchasing something must be a lawful condition of remaining in the restaurant. And to be a “condition,” it must apply to all members of the public wishing to enter and remain, not just a random few.

Normally, conditions are set forth in writing and provided in a conspicuous place so that all members of the public are on notice of it before entering and while occupying the premises. “No shoes, not shirt, no service” signs are an example. A restaurant could still have such a policy, even it it’s not posted. But if they try to eject one customer for not wearing a shirt while a table full of bare-chested men remains, the police will be hard-pressed to arrest that one man and charge him with a crime while allowing the other men to stay. This is not necessarily because the cops decided the manager is a racist (all of the men could be white) but because the fact that shirtless men are eating and drinking unaccosted in the restaurant suggests that wearing a shirt is not actually a condition of occupying the premises. If it’s not a condition, the man has not violated a condition and he is, therefore, not trespassing.

By the same token, before arresting anyone in Starbucks for violating the trespass statute, the cops needed to confirm they had probable cause to believe these men had violated the statute.

The manager was very specific about what she thought they violated. She said they did not comply with the lawful condition of occupancy, i.e., making a purchase. So the cops had to determine whether there was probable cause to find the men had violated this condition, so they first had to confirm what the condition was. Because this Starbucks did not have a written or posted notice or documentation that a purchase was a condition for the public to occupythe premises, they had to use other readily-available evidence to establish whether such a condition existed.

For example, if other patrons said, “Oh, yeah - they made me buy something before I could even sit down,” that would be pretty strong proof. But the opposite happened. There was not only no evidence that any such condition was applied to the public, several people said it was explicitly NOT applied, that they were there without making a purchase and were never called into question.

This is crystal clear evidence that a purchase was NOT a condition for use of the property and since the men couldn’t violate a condition that doesn’t exist, and there was no allegation they failed to comply with any other condition, they were on the premises legally and were not trespassing under the statute.

The bottom line is that the point I’m making here isn’t about uneven application of the trespass statute. This is a definitial issue relating to probable cause for the arrest. If an essential element of the charge is the existence of a particular condition - and a condition is only a condition if it is applied uniformly and consistently, otherwise, it’s not a condition at all - then the fact that it’s not applied across the board to all members of the public is very germane. And if the only justification for claiming the men violated the trespass law is that they failed to comply with a condition of entry that turns out to be no condition at all, then there s no crime and there should have been no arrest.

DU got sued several years ago under the claim that it was violating copyright laws. pnwmom Apr 2018 #1
Okey dokey, I removed it. Its a good read for anyone interested tulipsandroses Apr 2018 #2
I posted 4 paragraphs (the limit) in a different post down below. nt BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #6
The thing about trespassing laws ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #3
And they can't apply the "trespasser" label selectively to exclude members of protected classes. tblue37 Apr 2018 #4
Of course that is true, as I noted. nt ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #7
In the lunch counter sit-ins, the black patrons marybourg Apr 2018 #37
Discrimination is illegal so I would not consider Starbucks the 'victim'. Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #17
Yes, but ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #20
It wasn't trespass. This is a business which allows people to come and go...by your definition any Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #23
Not at all ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #29
Yeah, they were asked to leave because they were Black...good thing Rosa Parks didn't Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #36
But hey, what's the big deal? They can always hire a lawyer and sue later. EffieBlack Apr 2018 #40
I got that...and you are so right. The cops botched it. But suing isn't as easy as people think Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #76
Exactly, any lawyer would have a field day with these cases where race was obviously Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #53
That would be interesting. Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #75
And now they have an arrest record in some database. nt tblue37 Apr 2018 #60
And thank God, someone caught it on video that went viral EffieBlack Apr 2018 #68
This is true. Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #74
It is no coincidence... Wounded Bear Apr 2018 #25
Yep ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #30
The business that wants police to be its taxpayer-supported bouncers... Orsino Apr 2018 #38
So they should have a private guard who can toss people? ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #39
The businesses pay taxes. So do the people who use the businesses. They have just as much right EffieBlack Apr 2018 #41
Yes, they should. Orsino Apr 2018 #43
Technically, Starbucks also pays for it. ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #45
Yeah, police should respond to businesses who report unruly trespassers. Orsino Apr 2018 #46
From what I gather from the news, ExciteBike66 Apr 2018 #47
We are not hearing why they were asked to leave. Orsino Apr 2018 #48
She told the dispatcher "They are refusing to make a purchase or leave" EffieBlack Apr 2018 #50
Well, the bias dog-and-pony show was scheduled for a reason. Orsino Apr 2018 #55
What would you have the company do instead at this point? EffieBlack Apr 2018 #56
Shutting down for a day for training might be a good, or even great, start. Orsino Apr 2018 #57
Thank you for posting because I just found this article before I saw your post BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #5
Note corporate Starbucks' response. TheSmarterDog Apr 2018 #8
Exactly. BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #9
That's the mangers concept of it, not the CEOs. TheSmarterDog Apr 2018 #10
Right BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #11
Take this incident and multiply 200 million times. TheSmarterDog Apr 2018 #12
Yes I agree BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #13
The dictionary TCJ70 Apr 2018 #14
Starbucks invites people to loiter. TheSmarterDog Apr 2018 #15
Ok. Not sure what that has to do with my post... TCJ70 Apr 2018 #16
They were waiting for a friend which happens all the time in Starbucks...and is not big deal if you Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #18
Ok. Not sure what that has to do with my post... TCJ70 Apr 2018 #19
As a poor college student I often didn't buy much or anything during our study sessions...they had Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #24
Not everyone has the same standard... TCJ70 Apr 2018 #42
They became trespassers after they were asked to leave and refused Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #22
That is the law. Also wondering if police asked them to leave before arresting. Sneederbunk Apr 2018 #27
According to what I see the police did Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #33
Except a white woman came in during this time and requested the bathroom code without making a tblue37 Apr 2018 #63
In almost every state thats a simple answer Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #21
Hey Lee-Lee ProfessorGAC Apr 2018 #49
It does apply. They are open to the public. It's not a public place JDC Apr 2018 #51
It's a private place open to members of the public EffieBlack Apr 2018 #61
I dont know if you just cant comprehend or are intentionally making stuff up Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #69
It is you who is having trouble comprehending,Boo, so let me break it down for you again EffieBlack Apr 2018 #72
Define arbitrary. JDC Apr 2018 #77
Fighting is different than trespassing EffieBlack Apr 2018 #78
I am saying it can absolutely be arbitrary JDC Apr 2018 #79
I am using the Starbucks case as a trump card because that is the topic of the discussion EffieBlack Apr 2018 #81
Yes Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #52
Pennsylvania law goes further EffieBlack Apr 2018 #62
A lawful condition of access includes the owners permission Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #71
No it does not EffieBlack Apr 2018 #73
Except that this was clearly a civil rights violation. The manager had no right to tblue37 Apr 2018 #64
What if this had happened at a restaurant? Generic Brad Apr 2018 #26
The business model of Starbucks is about hanging out Merlot Apr 2018 #28
I appreciate the explanation Generic Brad Apr 2018 #31
I've spent many hours in coffee houses Merlot Apr 2018 #32
Isn't the eventual expectation that when that person joins you, you'll buy something? RhodeIslandOne Apr 2018 #80
For some reason, lunch counters spring to mind. n/t Orsino Apr 2018 #58
Why would you be asked to leave if you were waiting for someone? mcar Apr 2018 #59
People do sit at restaurant tables and wait for friends before ordering. It is not unusual. nt tblue37 Apr 2018 #65
The origins of U.S.A.'s hyperreactive trespassing laws are racist. hunter Apr 2018 #34
THANK you! EffieBlack Apr 2018 #44
Finally, some sanity. Yes, just about everything seems traceable to racism. Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #54
There are STILL sundown towns in the US. nt tblue37 Apr 2018 #66
Thank you BumRushDaShow Apr 2018 #70
Unfortunately, the title of the article - is misleading- in my opinion tulipsandroses Apr 2018 #35
+ a brazillion. nt tblue37 Apr 2018 #67
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