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wnylib

(25,151 posts)
65. Your first paragraph argument does not
Tue Sep 20, 2022, 01:10 PM
Sep 2022

support Trump's position and is not really circular. The example is of a president publicly declasifying something, on air, for the entire world to see that he has done that. Kennedy did it again through Ambassador Stevenson at the UN, showing publicly the CIA photographs of Soviet missiles for all the world to see.

Not the same at all as a president claiming that he "secretly" declassified material, leaving no paper or electronic trail of having done so and no public indication like a broadcast. So we only have the word of a man who lies with every breath that he declassified the materials and they are therefore his personal documents and not the government's. Why and how in hell would declassified documents of over-the-top US nuclear secrets become "personal" documents of DJT, anyway? Not even if possible, his verbal claim is empty unless backed up with empirical evidence.

Trump made the claim, so he should substantiate it.

JFK. Of course he did not commit a crime. I never suggested or even hinted that he did.

I disagree with your statement that, if Kennedy had shared or sold top secret info with Soviets during the Missile Crisis that it would only have been an impeachable offense, but not a crime. It was a hostile situation with an enemy that involved the positioning of extremely deadly weapons. Giving aid to an enemy under such conditions could fit the constitutional definition of treason. Americans have been executed for selling secrets to hostile foreign governments.

Total disagreement with everything in your last paragraph. DJT has made a claim of declassifying extremely sensitive top secret documents in order to claim that they are his personal documents so he had a right to take them to MAL. Unless he can substantiate that claim, he was found in possession of highly classified documents and has therefore committed a crime. Even if he did declassify them, though, US law says that they are government documents that cannot be removed from the WH.

His refusal to provide substantiation of having declassified the documents because the information is part of a defense in case he gets indicted indicates 2 things to me. 1) He knows that his actions are probably indictable, and 2) He is telling DOJ, "So go ahead and indict me. I have my defense prepared." Kind of like somebody would say, offhandedly, "So sue me."




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Yep. The desk is decisive but they simply were on his property underpants Sep 2022 #1
TFG's life's work... RevBrotherThomas Sep 2022 #21
The courts' life work is also keeping TFG entangled in them until he croaks. Ocelot II Sep 2022 #30
Ok he is guilty. The Jungle 1 Sep 2022 #2
You get a break when you are part of the cabal. multigraincracker Sep 2022 #3
Its 50/50 in the Supreme Court. They have ruled against Trump in prior cases. 3Hotdogs Sep 2022 #4
There's no honor among thieves. Meadowoak Sep 2022 #5
There is no honor in endangering the National Security of the US of A. Justice matters. Sep 2022 #29
I think it's worse than that. Johonny Sep 2022 #35
How do you figure a 6/3 or with Roberts, a 5/4 split is 50/50? Bev54 Sep 2022 #68
Maga math Ray Bruns Sep 2022 #76
That makes it frivolous. no_hypocrisy Sep 2022 #6
That's why so many Trump lawyers get in trouble. fightforfreedom Sep 2022 #7
This message was self-deleted by its author fightforfreedom Sep 2022 #8
Even Dershowitz conceded they had probable cause for the warrant and enough to indict Jarqui Sep 2022 #9
+1, uponit7771 Sep 2022 #16
TY for this recap. Duppers Sep 2022 #20
good summation. Thank you Evolve Dammit Sep 2022 #26
Thanks. Excellent recap. n/t ms liberty Sep 2022 #69
That isn't what they're telling us FBaggins Sep 2022 #10
Wow, according to you the criminal case should be thrown out. fightforfreedom Sep 2022 #12
Strawman much? FBaggins Sep 2022 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author wnylib Sep 2022 #28
Huh inthewind21 Sep 2022 #42
Wishful thinking FBaggins Sep 2022 #44
It's not necessary to call someone a "person of interest" VMA131Marine Sep 2022 #55
You have it exactly backwards VMA131Marine Sep 2022 #17
That's an argument that hasn't been challenged and upheld in court in similar circumstances FBaggins Sep 2022 #23
Regarding the hypothetical example, wnylib Sep 2022 #36
How credible is it? Not very FBaggins Sep 2022 #39
Re: Your second paragraph. wnylib Sep 2022 #58
I think that's somewhat circular FBaggins Sep 2022 #63
Your first paragraph argument does not wnylib Sep 2022 #65
re: "prosecution's job to prove that they had not been. And, legally, they have a point." thesquanderer Sep 2022 #46
There is indeed plenty of precedent... but you aren't going to like it FBaggins Sep 2022 #51
Your analogy is inappropriate VMA131Marine Sep 2022 #53
Not really FBaggins Sep 2022 #56
You're ignoring that the documents themselves VMA131Marine Sep 2022 #61
Documents that have proper and correct classification markings VMA131Marine Sep 2022 #52
That's always been the case before... but it is the question here FBaggins Sep 2022 #54
Again, properly marked documents are presumptively VMA131Marine Sep 2022 #57
Sounds like a perfect Catch-22 intrepidity Sep 2022 #66
The PRA isn't written so ambiguous as to make any document TFG can think of a "personal record" ... uponit7771 Sep 2022 #24
That's why is absolutely matters whether some of the documents are classified FBaggins Sep 2022 #31
Under PRA (link) "Personal records" are defined and not willy nilly anything a president claims. uponit7771 Sep 2022 #38
The definition and Congress' legislative intent seem pretty clear to me FBaggins Sep 2022 #41
Jackson's ruling in regards to Clinton tapes in "sock drawer" case Clinton's tapes were CLEARLY ... uponit7771 Sep 2022 #48
No it didn't. FBaggins Sep 2022 #62
We agree that NARA doesn't have authority to designated records but that's not ... uponit7771 Sep 2022 #64
But, as Dearie reminds us, this is a civil case, not criminal intrepidity Sep 2022 #67
I believe you are mistaken. EndlessWire Sep 2022 #71
This message was self-deleted by its author John Fante Sep 2022 #75
Their only defense will be to pardon all the convicted in the future Mr. Ected Sep 2022 #11
Indeed! Duppers Sep 2022 #22
Why does everyone keep forgetting Donald Trump has an army of judges on his side? Heather MC Sep 2022 #13
According to some people would should just surrender, it's hopeless. fightforfreedom Sep 2022 #15
Why inthewind21 Sep 2022 #45
We definitely got lucky however Heather MC Sep 2022 #59
Cannon WILL be removed from the bench Obvious85 Sep 2022 #14
Not a chance FBaggins Sep 2022 #32
Judge Cannon will find him not guilty. Turbineguy Sep 2022 #19
And then she'll ask "where's my Mercedes?" peppertree Sep 2022 #25
Um... Cannon isn't presiding over a criminal case FBaggins Sep 2022 #33
Not quilty inthewind21 Sep 2022 #47
America has had 3 people @ the level of espionage that Trump might have been at and they were: Botany Sep 2022 #27
"All Trump and his lawyers can do is delay, create chaos in the justice system." progressoid Sep 2022 #34
I think when Cannon brought up a defense they didn't ask for Johonny Sep 2022 #37
I have had the thought that Cannon doesn't believe what she says, but rather... thesquanderer Sep 2022 #50
I think that is right. kentuck Sep 2022 #40
This analysis seems top notch as usual by Emptywheel Jarqui Sep 2022 #43
re: "irrelevant when it comes to the possible charges listed in the warrant. It is not a defense" thesquanderer Sep 2022 #49
In the meantime, Babyshit Yellow will see if he can whip up some violence. jeffreyi Sep 2022 #60
If it doesn't go to trial by Jan 2025, DeSantis will pardon him. carpetbagger Sep 2022 #70
Desantis the Dork may need a pardon by 2024. fightforfreedom Sep 2022 #72
You'd almost think they're just wanting to delay, delay, and milk the rubes. Beartracks Sep 2022 #73
Judge Dearie is not going to let him delay this issue. Hamlette Sep 2022 #74
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