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dairydog91

(951 posts)
24. Cite cases, please.
Fri Jan 18, 2013, 11:52 PM
Jan 2013
dairydog: Heller did not reverse 200 years of history. >>>> Yes it did.
Cite a case, please. Find a case, from 1812 or earlier, in which a Court states that the right to keep and bear arms is communal, not individual. Any court case will do (Federal preferred), but I want to see the text. Higher level courts would be preferable.

Also, wiki words this a bit differently than yours, & doesn't specifically call it a {2ndA} 'constitutional right' to keep & carry arms wherever they went. Have you a reputable link?
The majority listed a number of rights that African-Americans would acquire should they have American citizenship:

"It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognised as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went." 60 U.S. 393, 417

Now, either the majority pulled these rights of American citizens out of its ass, so to speak, or it looked to the text of the Constitution to figure out what rights it protected. The right to enter other states without obstructions is probably based on Article 4 limitations on state power (Or maybe the Dormant Commerce Clause), while the right to "liberty of speech" seems to be sourced in the First Amendment and the only textual support for a right to "keep and carry arms" can be found in the Second Amendment. This is ultimately analysis of Court dicta, but I think your argument or implied argument that these rights, because the Court did not directly cite them to specific protections, were simply court creations is completely flawed. It seems far more likely that the Court cherry picked examples of Constitutional rights of American citizenship, which it considered especially terrifying should they protect African Americans, in order to buttress its central argument that the Founders did not intend to grant US citizenship to them.

Let me add another quote from the 1939 supreme court miller ruling...
Except I acknowledged (or at least thought I did) that the Miller case left an open door for interpretation, and seemed to show an intersection of individual right and community purpose. As the sections I cited previously seemed to hint, the RKBA could reasonably be interpreted to mean that it only protects an individual right to the extent that it protects possession of weapons that would have utility for militia use in the event of a call-up. Your added excerpt doesn't seem to detract from this argument. Hence, sawed-off shotguns, being militarily-useless guns normally used only for criminal purposes, are not protected.

Now, this ruling was UNANIMOUS, 9 - 0, and it contained the above two passages, affirmed by all 9 justices in 1939. Don't you think, if they had indeed thought it an individual RKBA disconnected from militia service (as scalia ruled) at least ONE of the nine justices would'nt've chirped up 'whoa, fellow justices, look how we've worded our rulings, people in future generations are gonna think we intended a militia based Right to Keep & Bear Arms'.
Except that I didn't argue that the individual RKBA was disconnected from militia service, but rather that Miller could reasonably be interpreted to support an individual right which only extended to the degree that it protected and individual right to possess specific weapons which would have a militia purpose in the event of a callup. Did the Justices think this through to the extent you're implying they did? Probably not; 2nd Amendment jurisprudence wasn't exactly a hot field at the time.

Have you a reputable link?
I am purely citing from the text of court cases. I can provide a specific textual reference, if you prefer, for any text I quote.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

True; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #1
Yes. I posted this to narrow the discussion to cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #3
I like the "diminishing with distance" image Recursion Jan 2013 #2
Right! (I didn't mean distance litteraly, of course, but conceptually) cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #4
Not in FL... Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #9
Don't forget truebluegreen Jan 2013 #26
Yep ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2013 #5
Stand Your Ground laws have been passed in 24 states... Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #10
Not quite... Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #6
Which does not contradict the OP cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #7
I said not quite...I didn't say you were entirely wrong... Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #8
Obama disagrees with the liberal SCOTUS? jimmy the one Jan 2013 #13
Yep that is what he is doing. Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #15
Obama supported that in 2008. I objected at the time. cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #18
That's not exactly telling the whole truth. dairydog91 Jan 2013 #12
How do you get it so backwards? Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #14
Because I read the text of the cases... dairydog91 Jan 2013 #23
Just read the second amendment... Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #28
miller decison unanimous 9 - 0 jimmy the one Jan 2013 #17
Cite cases, please. dairydog91 Jan 2013 #24
The central right identified in Dred Scott tabasco Jan 2013 #11
Not quite.. X_Digger Jan 2013 #16
You're right, though central isnt the same as only cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #19
The court was asked to address one aspect of the right, specifically handguns in the home.. X_Digger Jan 2013 #20
IMO, the second ammendment defines a right to arms in defense of one's self. OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #21
The Second Amendment isn't about the right to own a gun duffyduff Jan 2013 #22
April Love 2ndA court case jimmy the one Jan 2013 #25
Jos Story & Blackstone jimmy the one Jan 2013 #27
Miller, 1939 take II jimmy the one Jan 2013 #29
cruikshank, presser, lewis jimmy the one Jan 2013 #30
ally ally in come free jimmy the one Jan 2013 #31
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